Salvation

[BlackIris]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

One cannot know if one is certainly going to Heaven, save God reveals to you in a special and personal private revelation that you are indeed, going to Heaven. Barring such, one cannot know with absolute certitude.

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

Okay.

 

[JoabAnias]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

Yes through consecration and sanctification one can be rather certain that they are predestined for heaven.

Catholics believe we ARE saved, ARE BEING saved and WILL BE saved all at the same time.

These links may help explain:

Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Salvation: "Being Saved"

 

[mark46]

Curiously, this is what I taught as a Baptist.
We are saved - justification
We are being saved - sanctification (theosis or divinization)
We will be saved - glorification

. we ARE saved, ARE BEING saved and WILL BE saved all at the same time.

These links may help explain:

Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Salvation: "Being Saved"

 

[benedictaoo]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

Infallible? as free from error? Or as in true?

Yes we can have a certainty that is error free, that's true that any one of us here can go to heaven becuase that's what Christ did for us...

But can I know for sure I will?

Yes, becuase Ive been born again, redeemed by the blood of Christ... and this redemption can never be taken from me, God will never take this away from me. HE wants me in heaven... HE wills this for me.

So as long as I don't not forsake this gift and deny Christ and not want this redemption and opt for sin instead, I will certainly go to heaven becuase God said I could and He does not lie.

 

[benedictaoo]

One cannot know if one is certainly going to Heaven, save God reveals to you in a special and personal private revelation that you are indeed, going to Heaven. Barring such, one cannot know with absolute certitude.


Okay.

No.

WE can know... were you baptized?

Then you can KNOW you will go...

as long as you want to go, and you give up sin and live for God, you can KNOW for sure you will go...

we do not need to fear God preventing us from going to heaven.

We need to fear ourselves rejecting heaven- not wanting it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

A biblical and a Catholic response to your questions is this:

• Salvation is something we hope for and wait for with patience. This is taught in Romans 8:18-25.
• The work of saving sinners from their sins is complete in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is taught in Hebrews 10:11-18.
  
• Every christian (and every person who has had an opportunity to know and believe the gospel) is called to live a life of faithful obedience. This is taught in John 15:1-17.
• Every christian is cautioned to remain faithful and obedient. This is taught in Hebrews 10:26-31.

So if you live your life in faith and seek to obey God then you will be in Christ and you will have every right to lay hold of the promises God has made through Christ. This is taught in 2 Corinthians 1:20.

 

[mark46]

Has the sin of presumption been taken out of the Catchism?

No.

WE can know... were you baptized?

Then you can KNOW you will go...

as long as you want to go, and you give up sin and live for God, you can KNOW for sure you will go...

we do not need to fear God preventing us from going to heaven.

We need to fear ourselves rejecting heaven- not wanting it.

 

[benedictaoo]

We have a guarantee of salvation.

what we don't have a guarantee of is, us. That we will not falter and be bamboozled by sin and fall for its lies and deception.

That is why we are called to obedience,that is why we must seek to obey becuase if we don't- n telling what we might do.

Not what God will do to us, but what we will do to ourselves.

 

[benedictaoo]

Has the sin of presumption been taken out of the Catchism?

Its a presumption that Christ redeemed mankind?

I thought it was a fact.


Baptism removes original sin from us where we are reconciled back to God...
correct? Correct.

So anytime we commit sin, do we have a way back as where Adam and the Jews did not?

Sure we do.

We will always have a way back-- becuase we have been re born in the waters of baptism, incorporated into Christs own death and resurrection, so its OURS...

There is nothing presumptuous about it... we HAVE been redeemed at out baptism, we HAVE BEEN (past tense) saved from the sin of mankind...

But salvation and redemption aren't the same thing, you know...

We have been redeemed, this is our justification, the merits of Christ applied to us in baptism, so thats the reason God forgives us when we repent. so now we can be saved as long as we do not fall into serious sin and remain in serious sin.

But whats important to understand is, even if we do remain in sin unto death, we always, always HAD a way back...

This is what is guaranteed to us.

 

[JoabAnias]

Curiously, this is what I taught as a Baptist.

I will point out what my understanding of the differences are:

We are saved - justification.

Catholics are justified by Baptism as is stated in the Scriptures and has always been the case in tradition as well.

We are being saved - sanctification (theosis or divinization)

Catholics believe sanctification is a process through the workings of the Holy Spirit that ends when one dies in which we either;

reach heaven - where we always remain subservient to the Creator but understand and see as he does through virtue of being perfectly united with him, as we are all destined,

reach purgatory - where we are purified of residual stains of venial sin before we enter heaven,

or - by free will choice (as the effects of mortal sins are) reject God and leave him with no way to repent for eternity.

Theosis and divination is rarely understood correctly in the context of Catholic teaching by non-Catholics so it would depend on that view being from the Church or some personal interpretation.

Many protestant and even non-Christians hold to extremely incorrect ideas of divination such as the Mormons or Hindu's and Buddhists.

For reading on this, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., presents the Church's theology in two works: Christian Perfection and Contemplation, and the two volume The Three Ages of the Interior Life.

CCC 460
The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

CCC 759: "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life," to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ." This "family of God" is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."

We will be saved - glorification

Catholics believe we are already saved by the actions of our Lord Jesus Christ. We simply have yet to live up to our calling to Him. If we were sanctification would be unnecessary. God allows us free will to choose. The wise man who cooperates with the ample grace God gives to all builds up treasures in heaven by pursuing Christian perfection while here on earth. As a man comes to the Lord he departs from the world. Our true dignity is in the things of eternity and being transformed in the Lord.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Curiously, this is what I taught as a Baptist.
We are saved - justification
We are being saved - sanctification (theosis or divinization)
We will be saved - glorification

I am curious to know if you still see things as you did when you were a Baptist since you are now showing yourself as Anglican.

By the way, Sanctification is not Theosis, Glorification would be much closer to Theosis.

 

[BlackIris]

Thanks for the responses! I'll take time to read them.

In the meantime, I just thought you'd like to know why I made this thread. Well a Protestant asked me how sure I am that I will go to heaven. He said that as a Christian, I should be 100% certain because of Eph 2. We are saved and we are guaranteed a place in heaven. My response was that I wasn't sure. I didn't know what to say or how to defend my answer because my knowledge in scriptures is lacking.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thanks for the responses! I'll take time to read them.

In the meantime, I just thought you'd like to know why I made this thread. Well a Protestant asked me how sure I am that I will go to heaven. He said that as a Christian, I should be 100% certain because of Eph 2. We are saved and we are guaranteed a place in heaven. My response was that I wasn't sure. I didn't know what to say or how to defend my answer because my knowledge in scriptures is lacking.

OBOB is the right place for your question.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thanks for the responses! I'll take time to read them.

In the meantime, I just thought you'd like to know why I made this thread. Well a Protestant asked me how sure I am that I will go to heaven. He said that as a Christian, I should be 100% certain because of Eph 2. We are saved and we are guaranteed a place in heaven. My response was that I wasn't sure. I didn't know what to say or how to defend my answer because my knowledge in scriptures is lacking.

I hope that expanding the biblical references I previously gave will help.

A biblical and a Catholic response to your questions is this:

• Salvation is something we hope for and wait for with patience. This is taught in Romans 8:18-25.
  • In my estimation, all that we suffer in the present time is nothing in comparison with the glory which is destined to be disclosed for us, for the whole creation is waiting with eagerness for the children of God to be revealed. It was not for its own purposes that creation had frustration imposed on it, but for the purposes of him who imposed it- with the intention that the whole creation itself might be freed from its slavery to corruption and brought into the same glorious freedom as the children of God. We are well aware that the whole creation, until this time, has been groaning in labour pains. And not only that: we too, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we are groaning inside ourselves, waiting with eagerness for our bodies to be set free. In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence. Romans 8:18-25
    
• The work of saving sinners from their sins is complete in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is taught in Hebrews 10:11-18.
  • Every priest stands at his duties every day, offering over and over again the same sacrifices which are quite incapable of taking away sins. He, on the other hand, has offered one single sacrifice for sins, and then taken his seat for ever, at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting till his enemies are made his footstool. By virtue of that one single offering, he has achieved the eternal perfection of all who are sanctified. The Holy Spirit attests this to us, for after saying: No, this is the covenant I will make with them, when those days have come. the Lord says: In their minds I will plant my Laws writing them on their hearts, and I shall never more call their sins to mind, or their offences. When these have been forgiven, there can be no more sin offerings. Hebrews 10:11-18
    
• Every christian (and every person who has had an opportunity to know and believe the gospel) is called to live a life of faithful obedience. This is taught in John 15:1-17.
  • 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch -- and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. 8 It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. 9 I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. 12 This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you. 13 No one can have greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you. 15 I shall no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know the master's business; I call you friends, because I have made known to you everything I have learnt from my Father. 16 You did not choose me, no, I chose you; and I commissioned you to go out and to bear fruit, fruit that will last; so that the Father will give you anything you ask him in my name. 17 My command to you is to love one another. John 15:1-17
• Every christian is cautioned to remain faithful and obedient. This is taught in Hebrews 10:26-31.
  • If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will pay them back. And again: The Lord will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31
    

So if you live your life in faith and seek to obey God then you will be in Christ and you will have every right to lay hold of the promises God has made through Christ. This is taught in 2 Corinthians 1:20.

For in him is found the Yes to all God's promises and therefore it is 'through him' that we answer 'Amen' to give praise to God. 2 Corinthians 1:20
​

You can answer your Protestant friend by saying "I am confident of God's trustworthiness and that God will fulfil every promise he makes through Jesus Christ. Because of this I have a lively hope in Christ that he will call me his friend and receive me into heaven if I remain in union with him and obey his commandment to love God and my brothers and sisters. Jesus said 'I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you.' [John 13:34] And he also said, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole Law, and the Prophets too.' [Matthew 22:37]"

Hope that helps.

God be with you.

 

[benedictaoo]

Thanks for the responses! I'll take time to read them.

In the meantime, I just thought you'd like to know why I made this thread. Well a Protestant asked me how sure I am that I will go to heaven. He said that as a Christian, I should be 100% certain because of Eph 2. We are saved and we are guaranteed a place in heaven. My response was that I wasn't sure. I didn't know what to say or how to defend my answer because my knowledge in scriptures is lacking.

God assures us (the baptized) that we will be saved... and he very explicitly has revealed to us just how we can be.

After we commit our lives to Christ we have to stay away from sin becuase it can literally destroy us and we can reject God and the salvation He gave to us.

The next thing they will want to tell you is that when you accept Christ- your sins will all be forgiven if you do not repent of them, even if you commit them willfully.

That's total bull but there is no point in arguing with them...

This is what the sin of presumption is, presuming your sins will all be forgiven even if you don't repent of them and remain in them.

 

[BlackIris]

First set of replies.

A biblical and a Catholic response to your questions is this:

• Salvation is something we hope for and wait for with patience. This is taught in Romans 8:18-25.
• The work of saving sinners from their sins is complete in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is taught in Hebrews 10:11-18.
  
• Every christian (and every person who has had an opportunity to know and believe the gospel) is called to live a life of faithful obedience. This is taught in John 15:1-17.
• Every christian is cautioned to remain faithful and obedient. This is taught in Hebrews 10:26-31.

So if you live your life in faith and seek to obey God then you will be in Christ and you will have every right to lay hold of the promises God has made through Christ. This is taught in 2 Corinthians 1:20.

Thanks for the bible references! I think what the person is trying to lure me into thinking is that a Christian is saved so long as you have faith. You don't have to do anything. However, from what I know, "....The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" (Gal 5:6) What is love? It is obeying God's command and avoiding sin.

We have a guarantee of salvation.

what we don't have a guarantee of is, us. That we will not falter and be bamboozled by sin and fall for its lies and deception.

That is why we are called to obedience,that is why we must seek to obey becuase if we don't- n telling what we might do.

Not what God will do to us, but what we will do to ourselves.

Exactly what I was thinking! Although we are already saved, we cannot be sure that our imperfect selves will succumb into temptation.

Yes through consecration and sanctification one can be rather certain that they are predestined for heaven.

Catholics believe we ARE saved, ARE BEING saved and WILL BE saved all at the same time.

These links may help explain:

Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Salvation: "Being Saved"

...and it is up to us if we truly want to be saved. Thanks for the links!

 

[BlackIris]

Hope that helps.

God be with you.

I had to read your long post lots of times
That helped me a lot!
God bless!

After we commit our lives to Christ we have to stay away from sin becuase it can literally destroy us and we can reject God and the salvation He gave to us.

So, we are already saved yet that salvation can be taken away?

The next thing they will want to tell you is that when you accept Christ- your sins will all be forgiven if you do not repent of them, even if you commit them willfully.

That's total bull but there is no point in arguing with them...

I agree.

 

[NoBama2012]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8). Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

I'll ask questions if I feel that an explanation confuses me.

SALVATION



Links to Tracts:

Are Catholics Born Again
Assurance of Salvation?
Grace: What It Is and What It Does
How to Become a Catholic
Mortal Sin (Fathers)
The Necessity of Baptism (Fathers*)
Reward and Merit (Fathers)
Salvation Outside the Church (Fathers*)


* Includes commentary by the Early Church Fathers

All with imprimatur.
​

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Hi! I'd like to fully understand the Catholic view on salvation (Eph 2:4-8).

But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) and hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

What about this passage?

Someone please enlighten me? Can one have an infallible certainty that one can go to heaven?

Yes, you can go to Heaven. No, you cannot know for certain that you will because you cannot see the future. Go to Mass, go to Confession and pray. If you pursue God while on earth, your desires will not be frustrated. A mortal sin is when you put something above God -- you choose to do something that God has clearly said not to do and in doing so, you put something else above Him. Pretty much you say, "God, I would rather have ______ than You." where ____ could be anything -- money, sex/love, entertainment, drugs, human respect -- it doesn't matter because only God can be on the top of the pile, everything else you do must be in its proper place and oriented towards Him. Those who put created things above the Creator will be terribly disappointed when it all turns to dust and they are left standing there naked before the Judge. They rejected God in this life and thus they reject them in the next. Those who pursue God with a pure heart in this life will find Him in the next.

Thus we cannot say for certain that we will wind up in Heaven because we don't know what will happen, we might fall into a state of unrepentant mortal sin -- refusing to confess something, for whatever reason. We might even give up on the whole religion thing and become a Buddhist or an atheist, who knows? But if we give the control of our lives over to God and partake of the Sacraments regularly with true devotion, can there be any real doubt?

Paradise, from Bosch's Four Last Things.