Soyeong

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Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. God is trustworthy, therefor His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so relying on the Mosaic Law is relying on the Lawgiver, not on ourselves. Trying to save ourselves by keeping the law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of its goal, which is why there are many verses that speak against trying to do that.
 
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The Liturgist

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Have you read the Epistle of James? Faith without works is dead. Our Lord expressly commends acts of charity and mercy. The problem with the kind of extreme sola fide approach you outline, which exceeds the Magisterial Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley, to name my four favorites) is that it relegates Christian charity to the backburner, whereas the Reformers, particularly Calvin, saw good works as a sign of living faith and regeneration, which is one of the reasons why in my younger days I was a Calvinist. Wesley, the Anglicans, and even Luther, who personally rejected the epistle of St. James, which has the effect of damaging sola fide, just like the rejection of the Deuterocanonical books by everyone except the Church of England.*

So if Sola Fide is not reflected in good works, especially in a Once Saved, Always Saved context, one could be religious and devout in youth before maturing into a scoundrel and a hypocrite, just like Sola Scriptura that does not follow the traditional canon, like the Church of England and other Anglican churches do, and every church ought to do, it becomes an invitation to arbitrarily redefine the contents of the Bible on the basis of an Open Canon. So I could declare the epistles of Ignatius and the Apostolic Canons and the Acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Council scriptural and print Bibles with them. In fact people are already doing this, like Hal Taussig’s Nsw New Testament, which features an eclectic mix of NT apocrypha designed to appeal to the most liberal Christians, omitting some much loved NT apocrypha that would appeal to conservatives like the Protoevangelion of James, the Didache and Didascalia, and 3 Corinthians, and of what tney do include largely comes from Nag Hammadi, like the Gospel of Truth and Gospel of Mary and the incomprehensible Thunder: Perfect Mind, much loved by Ridley Scott, and in the case of these works, they go to great pains to claim is not Gnostic.

So just as we need a canon for Sola Scriptura to work, that being the received canon representing the consensus patrum, best expressed in the contents of the Vulgate, the Peshitta, the Church Slavonic and Georgian Bibles, and of course, the Greek Bibles of the Greek Orthodox Church, which informed the contents of the KJV (so basically, Sola Scriptura works if we recognize as canonical every book in the KJV and only the books in the KJV, and accept this canon is a tradition, and this paradox of sola scriptura can only be resolved with the Anglican tripod (Scripture, Tradition, Reason) or the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (which adds experience to the Anglican model), we also need a canon for Sola Fide to work. And that canon is that someone with faith will behave like they have faith; they will repent of sins, seek weekly Holy Communion, observe the fasts in Advent and Lent and on Wednesdays and Fridays (as John Wesley desired), be chaste, merciful, generous, long-suffering, and patient, and contribute time or money to charity. And to the extent they fail in these respects, which they will some or all of the time, they will repent.

*(Ecclesiasricus, Wisdom, Tobit, the Maccabees, Judith and other deuterocanonical books are actually part of any complete King James Bible, but since 1800 publishers have omitted them to cut costs, even though the Anglican Communion is the largest Protestant denomination in the world. But alas they are outnumbered by the other denominations.
 
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Firsrly, “self-saving theology” is Pelagianism, but rejecting the doctrine of Pelagius does not require us to embrace Calvinist determinism or Once Saved, Always Saved, which is a moral hazard.
 
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The Liturgist

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“Blood atonement” by the way is not a commonly used phrase in Christianity; what you mean is “Penal Substitutionary Atonement” or “Satisfaction Theology” and it dates from Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century, being refined by Aquinas and Calvin. The ancient church was not familiar with this idea which separates the passion of our Lord from His incarnation, resurrection and ascension, and the sacrifice of Christ for our sins from other aspects of His passion, namely, that death was swallowed up in victory, and in trampling down death by death, through His incarnation, passion and resurrection, is the supreme act of Love by all three distinct undivided persons of our one God, God the Father and God the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who became incarnate by God the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. And it also seemingly disregards Ephesian and Chalcedonian Christology by downplaying the hypostatic union between God and Man in our salvation.

Also, “Blood atonement”, while not used by Christian theologians very much at all, is an important concept, and a very dark concept in Mormon theology, which is twisted and grotesque, which is why I urge you to modify your terminology so you are not using that exact phrase. “The atonement on the cross,” “The atonement” and “Our salvation purchased (or our ransom paid) by the spilled blood of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior incarnate” are phrases I would use. I should also note that atonement was a component of Patristic theology, its just that it was not the only one.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Indeed. One thing I learned in another thread by the OP, which had a lot of input from a Catholic, is that "Lordship Salvation" and Catholicism in regards to salvation, appear to be very similar, if not identical.

And the fact that that thread has gone on for a month, with over 1500 posts, pretty clearly demonstrates that it's indeed far from being settled.
 
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Ceallaigh

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What I find interesting is that John MacArthur who's a major proponent of what you're saying, uses the same verses, and has written several books to back it up - also says that you can't lose your salvation.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I don't want to be rude, but that's so complicated it almost sounds like a parody.

And to the extent they fail in these respects, which they will some or all of the time, they will repent.

So all this time I should have been repenting for not following rules that John Wesley came up with? Or does that only apply if you're a Methodist?

Also isn't repenting of and failing to obey something all the time, mutually exclusive? Unless by repent you mean penance and or confession?
 
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setst777

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What I find interesting is that John MacArthur who's a major proponent of what you're saying, uses the same verses, and has written several books to back it up - also says that you can't lose your salvation.

Hi Brian,

John MacArthur is the only Calvinist (Reformed) preacher and teacher I know of that defines "faith" according to the Gospel. Yes, John MacArthur does believe and teach that a true believer can never lose His salvation, and I agree.

Even so, John MacArthur goes a step further, by teaching that, those who presently live by that Gospel Faith, will never fall away or lose their salvation - because their faith and resulting salvation are both guaranteed by God.

However
, we do not find any Scriptures that actually teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). We see many Scriptures of warning, and also examples of those who actually did fall away from the faith. You cannot fall away from a faith you never had.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (WEB)18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

We also see more than a few Scriptures teaching, warning, and admonishing the Christians that falling away from the faith and losing out on eternal life is a genuine possibility, and so, they must endure and continue, and not give up, to remain sober and vigilant so that they may inherit the Promise of God. Some of those Scripture I provided, of which you referred to.

IF the believer continues in His kindness by faith, he will not be cut off. No guarantees in Scripture that a believer will remain faithful to the end.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I know there are verses to back up OSAS, because I've seen and heard them presented before. Agreeing that they actually support it is another matter of course. Here's a 2 min video of MacArthur explaining it:


I have to say, that chokes me up every time I hear it.
 
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setst777

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I have listened to practically all of John MacArthur's sermons. I am quite familiar with what he teaches and the Passages he uses. There is not one Scripture in the entire Bible that teaches that a Believer can never fall away from the faith and be lost.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't want to be rude, but that's so complicated it almost sounds like a parody.

Are you referring to my post or to the Byzantine model of Soteriology?

I expect it was my post, and I find it amusing in a self-deprecating way that my literary abstractions are themselves becoming Byzantine
St. Gregory Palamas is known to write that way, while St. Athanasius according to CS Lewis was one of the easiest Greek writers to read. In English, his Life of Anthony is well translated and is really a page-turner, but I have yet to find a translation of On The Incarnation that I liked.

So all this time I should have been repenting for not following rules that John Wesley came up with? Or does that only apply if you're a Methodist?

John Wesley did not come up with them; Wednesday and Friday fasts are so ancient that their origin is obscure, but the thought is that Wednesday is a commemoration of our Lord’s arrest and Friday the Crucifixion. The only innovation Wesley introduced in his Sunday Service Book for North America recension of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer was to indicate that people should attend church on those days for the express purpose of praying the Anglican Litany, but that didn’t happen. Advent and Lent, which are newer, dating from the 5th-7th centuries I think, are also present, although the Roman Rite and the Protestant churches based on it are the only churches in the world where Advent is only four weeks long instead of the usual six (if you travel to Milan, where the Ambrosian Liturgy is used, Advent starts two weeks earlier), but this is a minor gripe, and also to be fair, if we lengthened Advent we would have to order new wreaths and the system of O Antiphons, and in high church Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism, the Rorate Caeli masses might also break.*

But, it is frustrating to me how much of Wesley”s doctrine and his Anglican sensibilities, for example, his love of the Book of Common Prayer, were set aside by the Methodist Episcopal Church in favor of what was described in one article of the Oxford Handbook on Methodism as a Reformed church with Arminian soteriology. I have never been to a Methodist church with weekly Communion, heard a Methodist elder preach about salvation through Entire Sanctification (Theosis) or about the incident where Wesley”s heart was “strangely moved,” or seen any trace of the Book of Common Prayer or its Methodist customization, the Sunday Service Book, in use, but I am sure there are Methodist parishes where John Wesley plays a role similar to Martin Luther in Lutheran churches, St. Thomas Aquinas in Roman Catholic churches, St. Severus of Antioch in Oriental Orthodox churches, and St. John of Damascus in Eastern Orthodox churches, as someone whose material is particularly useful and relevant as a manual of the faith, (for example, Luther”s theology remains very visible in Lutheran churches, aside from his nasty anti-Semitism he developed towards the end of his life, but Lutheran ideas about the Mass still prevail, his hymns predominate, and his Catechisms and Law/Gospel dichotomy remain in use).

These thinkers, while not by any means innovative (except in the case of Aquinas and Severus, but its a good innovation, in that Severus advanced Theopaschite doctrine with his hymn “Only Begotten Son” which I regard as something approaching a litmus test for correct Christology, and Aquinas with his philosophical proofs for God. Conversely, the Reformed churches don’t seem to care about John Calvin as much as I would like; it is again exceedingly rare to find a Presbyterian church with weekly communion (although I think some of the Reformed churches in the US that are originally of Dutch origin do this, and I have also heard of it in the Church of Scotland). At present, however, the depressing reality for someone who loves both John and Charles Wesley is that only the latter is highly visible in Methodist worship, and the increasing dominance of “Praise and Worship Music” endanger this in some parishes, although there is some consolation from the fact John Wesley did theologically edit the hymns of his brother Charles, who was a better poet than a theologian.

Also isn't repenting of and failing to obey something all the time, mutually exclusive? Unless by repent you mean penance and or confession?

No, and no; if you will permit me to elaborate: many people struggle with sinful behaviors which are habit-forming, like problem gambling, drugs, alcoholism, smoking, wrathfulness/uncontrolled anger, prostitution, inappropriate contentography, homosexuality, and other depravities. Support groups exist for many of these, but they don’t always work, and “Conversion Therapy” for homosexuals has been a disaster for the churches that tried it.

We have to anolish the Forensic model of sin, and embrace the Orthodoc medicinal model, where sin is viewed as a disease resulting from our condition which takes a long time to cure. But many of these these people are sorry for their sins, as they are suffering from an illness and our Lord says we should, and implies He will, forgive a sin not seven times, but seventy times seven (further implying boundless, infinite capability for forgiveness). Private confession can bring relief to pained consciences. There is also the Anglican approach of a public confiteor, where the congregation confesses at Morning Prayer and Evensong “we have left undone what we ought to have done, and done that which we ought not to have done...we are truly sorry) and the Priest pronounces absolution; a similar confiteor and the Prayer of Humble Access exist at traditional Holy Communion services. These sacramentals can bring great relief to people who feel a sense of Metanoia but cannot act on it.

Regarding penances, I don’t believe in them except for grave sins which involve murder or mayhem or racketeering, such as a doctor who performs abortions, or the leader of a shoplifting ring or a higj level drug dealer, or sins which threaten the integrity of the church, such as a member who spreads damaging gossip about other members. Only the Roman Rite and related rites insist on penancing all people who come to confess. The Orthodox do not; when I was with the OCA, which I loved (I left because I felt called to revitalize Congregationalism by injecting a blend of Orthodox and Wesleyan principles and pursue ecumenical unity among traditional churches), I went to confession many times, I found it very helpful, and no priest ever demanded a penance of me. This is the medicinal model in action, which is so much better than the forensic model that words fail me in trying to describe the extent of its superiority.

* Fun fact: Canon XX of the Council of Nicea prohibits fasting and prostration in church from Easter to Pentecost Sunday, although only the ban on prostration survives past St. Thomas Sunday (also known as Low Sunday, perhaps because it and Christmas Sunday have the lowest attendance), but I think if we want to get Protestants, as I do, to experience Advent and Lent, not just as fasts, because many people can’t fast due to illness, but instead, as times of increased prayer, communion and repentence, Canon XX should be in force. Canon I, in case you were wondering, extends the apostolic canon denying ordination to people who have killed anyone post-Baptism to people who have castrated themselves or been castrated for reasons other than medical neccessity, as the Church regarded this act as self- murder, which I think is a fascinating insight into the collective mindset of the bishops, largely those consecrated at the end of the Diocletian Persecution, who were at Nicea.
 
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I like his work; I wish he had been nicer to Hank Haanegraaf when he became Greek Orthodox. We’ve got to get over criticizing people for moving between denominations or even being members of multiple denominations concurrently.
 
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Ceallaigh

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That for me was even more complicated. I think C.S. Lewis might have disagreed that smoking is a sin, considering he smoked like a chimney.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I like his work; I wish he had been nicer to Hank Haanegraaf when he became Greek Orthodox. We’ve got to get over criticizing people for moving between denominations or even being members of multiple denominations concurrently.

Yeah I didn't care for that at all. Although it did help spark my interest in EO which I've taken a liking to. I suppose that backfired on MacArthur where I'm concerned.

I certainly like the Orthodox view of salvation:

 
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fhansen

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1.) God started it, now its on me to do the rest till i die.
I don't know how many believe that but many believe that once made just, justified, one is expected to walk in that justice, and not compromise and ultimately lose it. We must remain in Him; we must live by the Spirit who's now been given us as new creations in Christ who've turned to Him in faith. We must work out our salvation who He who works in us, and make our calling and election sure. So its not either/or, Him or me, but both/and, Him and me. It's all about what we do with the continuous grace given.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
"With God all things are possible." Matt 19:26
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

That's why the New Covenant is all about putting man together with God, first of all. Then we can be who we were created to be.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
 
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fhansen

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Yes, we aren't saved by being obedient to God's law first of all, as if we even possess any real righteousness on our own with which to obey to begin with. Rather we're saved by turning to God and Him giving us righteousness, righteousness being part and parcel of that relationship which faith establishes. Adam had caused a rift, a separation between humanity and God which itself constitutes a state of injustice for man-and true righteousness was lost for us as man became his own "god" so to speak. Jesus came to reconcile man with God, and the righteousness that we were created for is the natural result.

But we still struggle between the idea of autonomy from God that Adam initiated and true absolute devotion to Him where sin would be completely overcome. To the extent that we truly love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength our union with Him would be complete, and righteousness no longer compromisable in any way. That's what Adam still lacked in Eden-that's what all humanity is meant to ultimately attain.
 
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Sidon

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Those Christians who turn back to live in any sin will be disowned by Lord Jesus and will be judged worse than an un-believer.
s

Generally, you dont ask questions, setst777
You just show up on my Threads and post a very long personal theology that no one reads.

The fact is, if you would not try to write a book, vs, just asking some question, i could have a conversation with you, perhaps.

And regarding your legalism you are teaching, that tries to teach that a person keeps themselves saved by never backsliding....well, that is just not true.

Demas was a backslider, and He's in Heaven.
Mark was a backslider, and He's in Heaven.

See, God knew of every sin you would commit after you were saved.
Including the ones you have not yet committed, but will.
And He saved you anyway, if you are truly born again, and not just water baptized thinking that water has washed your sins away.
It didnt.
But if you are born again, then all your sin you would commit after you were saved.....God knows them all, and He saved you anyway.
Why?
Because "where sin abounds, Grace MORE Abounds".

This means when you commit carnal works of the flesh after you are saved......then the same Blood of Jesus that solved all the lifetime of sinning you had committed when God saved you........still takes care of the carnality you will commit later on.

This is the Grace of God as the "blood atonement".
 
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Sidon

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ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

You quoted JUDE.

Let me explain that verse.

There are ungodly people, led by the devil, who deceive by saying that when Grace is taught correctly, that this is "license" or 'licentiousness'".
 
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Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law.

God does not save you with the Blood of the New Testament, so that you can go back to Moses in the Old Testament and try to keep the Law or Commandments.

See, the law and commandments, are for the unbelievers.
God gave this to them to get them to recognize they are unholy, and needed to be made righteous by God's Blood.
See Jesus for that one.

The born again, have been "made righteous"., so, to the born again, the 10 Commandments, are a lifestyle moral boundary, and nothing more.
 
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