SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[FreeGrace2]

1. Can one lose or give back the completed saving work of Jesus the Divine Messiah? If so, copy and paste supporting verses in context.

Yes, you can lose your salvation.
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Thank you for your time in reading this

The biblical position is that one cannot lose their salvation.

Not any of the verses and passages provided say that salvation can be lost. Those who think the verses/passages mean that salvation can be lost have not honestly examined what Jesus taught.

In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus said "whoever believes" and "the one who believes" HAS eternal life. So, what does that mean? It means they possess the gift of eternal life WHEN they have believed. iow, the gift is GIVEN WHEN one believes.

Then, in John 10:28a, Jesus provided the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The first phrase, "I give them eternal life" is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself.

The second phrase, "and they shall never perish" is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

So, in a nutshell, once given the gift of eternal life, which from Jn 5:24 and 6:47, means WHEN one believes, the recipient shall never perish.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost are in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ.

There are no verses in the Bible that contradict John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't you see that it takes both to have life? Alone, flame is nothing, and oil is nothing.

I never said otherwise. What I pointed out was that the oil isn't the life

This is from your post:
"Do not be a foolish virgin who takes their lamp with no oil. Just as oil gives life to the lamp, so do works give life to faith."

I would say that a flame gives life to the oil.

 

[EmSw]

I never said otherwise. What I pointed out was that the oil isn't the life

This is from your post:
"Do not be a foolish virgin who takes their lamp with no oil. Just as oil gives life to the lamp, so do works give life to faith."

I would say that a flame gives life to the oil.

You do? How long does a flame have life without oil?

 

[EmSw]

@EmSw, regarding your signature:

reference Jude 1:4, which speaks of men who were preordained to speak certain false doctrines; who will still be held accountable before God.

The signature is showing how some people live their life and the beliefs they have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You do? How long does a flame have life without oil?

Since my understanding is that God is the "flame", His life is eternal.

So, how does oil produce either light or heat without a flame first?

 

[EmSw]

Since my understanding is that God is the "flame", His life is eternal.

So, how does oil produce either light or heat without a flame first?

We both know God is eternal; however, you didn't answer my question.

How long does a flame have life without oil?

You have it backwards, you don't have a flame, then give it oil. You have oil first, and then supplement it with a flame to keep it burning, that is, to make it complete.

Besides, the parable says nothing about a flame; just a lamp and oil is mentioned. A lamp without oil produces nothing. You can add a flame all you want, but you won't get light without oil.

 

[justbyfaith]

The biblical position is that one cannot lose their salvation.

Not any of the verses and passages provided say that salvation can be lost. Those who think the verses/passages mean that salvation can be lost have not honestly examined what Jesus taught.

In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus said "whoever believes" and "the one who believes" HAS eternal life. So, what does that mean? It means they possess the gift of eternal life WHEN they have believed. iow, the gift is GIVEN WHEN one believes.

Then, in John 10:28a, Jesus provided the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The first phrase, "I give them eternal life" is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself.

The second phrase, "and they shall never perish" is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

So, in a nutshell, once given the gift of eternal life, which from Jn 5:24 and 6:47, means WHEN one believes, the recipient shall never perish.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost are in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ.

There are no verses in the Bible that contradict John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.

Understanding that the biblical position is that one cannot lose their salvation; and that if one is a worker of iniquity he or she is not saved (see Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 13:41-42); it follows that if a person is a worker of iniquity they were never saved. Therefore the next step for them is to receive Christ as their Lord and not just their Saviour; because if He is not your Lord He is not your Saviour.

 

[Acts2:38]

Hello,

I'd be happy to discuss this with you as well.

In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus said "whoever believes" and "the one who believes" HAS eternal life. So, what does that mean? It means they possess the gift of eternal life WHEN they have believed. iow, the gift is GIVEN WHEN one believes.

Yup. I would agree. When one believes and does according to what the gospel says (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, remain faithful), they have salvation.

Look carefully at the context of the verses you just posted. "whoever believes"; "the one that believes". That is a present tense use.

So of course I will agree that if one "continues" in their belief (believes-present tense) then yes, they still have salvation. That's what that means.

Believes is also a verb. An action word. God offers the gift of salvation, it's up to you to obey the gospels commands to obtain it (John 14:15; John 15:14).

Then, in John 10:28a, Jesus provided the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The first phrase, "I give them eternal life" is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself.

The second phrase, "and they shall never perish" is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

So, in a nutshell, once given the gift of eternal life, which from Jn 5:24 and 6:47, means WHEN one believes, the recipient shall never perish.

Again, I would agree with this. The key word is "believes" again. A present tense use. Obviously, if one continues to believe, "they shall never perish". However, since believes is a verb, it means you must continue to do what is your "reasonable service" or you will be considered "fruitless". Romans 12:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; John 14:15; John 15:14.

There are no verses in the Bible that contradict John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.

These verses do not contradict at all in the least to the points in my last post.

I believe you are missing or overlooking at the key contexts:

Believes is present tense = one would still be in a saved state so long as they continue in following the gospel call

Believed is a past tense = one who believed at one point in time but no longer does, meaning they are no longer in a saved state (Hebrews 10:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 for example).

Show me in scripture where it uses a "past tense" "Believed" and the person is still in a saved state.

Otherwise, if you cannot find scripture that uses a past tense " whoever so believed"- "will not perish"
The biblical position is that one can lose their salvation once they fail to obey scripture and discontinue in believing (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

 

[FreeGrace2]

We both know God is eternal; however, you didn't answer my question.

How long does a flame have life without oil?

This is my answer:
"Since my understanding is that God is the "flame", His life is eternal.

So, how does oil produce either light or heat without a flame first?"

You have it backwards, you don't have a flame, then give it oil. You have oil first, and then supplement it with a flame to keep it burning, that is, to make it complete.

I never suggested an order. But since this is your 'parable', let's understand what it means. God gives light and life. Or do you disagree?

So, the lamp with oil would be a person. God's light/life is regeneration.

So, the flame is God Himself. And since God is eternal, His life is eternal, which it seems you don't agree with.

If your 'parable' means something else, please explain.

Besides, the parable says nothing about a flame; just a lamp and oil is mentioned. A lamp without oil produces nothing. You can add a flame all you want, but you won't get light without oil.

Nor did I even suggest that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Understanding that the biblical position is that one cannot lose their salvation; and that if one is a worker of iniquity he or she is not saved (see Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 13:41-42); it follows that if a person is a worker of iniquity they were never saved. Therefore the next step for them is to receive Christ as their Lord and not just their Saviour; because if He is not your Lord He is not your Saviour.

I think this is confusing the issue. Believers can and do commit iniquity. To argue otherwise simply ignores Scripture.

If true believers don't commit iniquity, why did John write 1 Jn 1:9, which is about forgiveness of sin and cleansing from ALL iniquity?

And why all the commands to be holy, as God is holy?

What's the opposite of holy? Iniquity.

Salvation comes from believing in Christ as Savior. The result should be (and is commanded) to follow Him as your Lord.

To mix Savior and Lord into one thing for salvation dilutes the gospel of grace and makes behavior a requirement for salvation. Do you really want to go there?

I believe Eph 2;8,9 refutes that idea.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello,

I'd be happy to discuss this with you as well.

I said:
"In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus said "whoever believes" and "the one who believes" HAS eternal life. So, what does that mean? It means they possess the gift of eternal life WHEN they have believed. iow, the gift is GIVEN WHEN one believes."

Yup. I would agree. When one believes and does according to what the gospel says (hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, remain faithful), they have salvation.

I totally disagree with this. The Bible clearly states that one is saved when one believes. All that you'd included adds up to human effort or works.

Consider this: to "remain faithful" requires the rest of one's life. So that would mean salvation could not be given UNTIL one leaves earth, if they "remained faithful".

If a person has to remain faithful, then they are in fact saving themselves by their lifestyle/behavior. There is NOTHING in Scripture that one must remain faithful to be saved. There are many verses that indicate that salvation is based on a point in time (aorist tense) belief in Christ.

Look carefully at the context of the verses you just posted. "whoever believes"; "the one that believes". That is a present tense use.

So of course I will agree that if one "continues" in their belief (believes-present tense) then yes, they still have salvation. That's what that means.

This is a common argument among the OSNAS crowd. However, it is an abuse of the present tense.

What this implies is that the results of a present tense are based on continuing the action. Please cite any source that teaches this.

otoh, the present tense ONLY refers to an action that is occurring in the present, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. There is NOTHING in the present tense that indicates the results of a present action only continue IF the action continues, which is what you're basically arguing.

In fact, the common use of the aorist tense (means point in time, usually in the past, and a completed action) REFUTES your claim.

Furthermore, from Jn 5;24 and 6:47, Jesus SAID those who believe possess (have) eternal life. That has to mean they possess it WHEN they initially believed.

Therefore, when Jesus made His statement in Jn 10:28a, He sealed the deal on OSAS.

Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. So this statement applies FROM THE MOMENT one believes, which is WHEN they possess eternal life.

To argue for loss of salvation, one has to reject what Jesus said in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.

Believes is also a verb. An action word. God offers the gift of salvation, it's up to you to obey the gospels commands to obtain it (John 14:15; John 15:14).

The action of placing one's full trust in Christ a Savior really has nothing to do with obeying commands. This is just a very thinly disguised works based system of salvation. No different than what the Pharisees believed and taught.

Again, I would agree with this. The key word is "believes" again. A present tense use. Obviously, if one continues to believe, "they shall never perish".

Jesus never said what you are claiming. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. And before that He made clear that eternal life is possessed when one believes, not at the end of their lives, after "proving" their obedience and faithfulness.

However, since believes is a verb, it means you must continue to do what is your "reasonable service" or you will be considered "fruitless".

No, it doesn't. Your understanding of the Greek present tense is false.

Believes is present tense = one would still be in a saved state so long as they continue in following the gospel call

See above.

Believed is a past tense = one who believed at one point in time but no longer does, meaning they are no longer in a saved state (Hebrews 10:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 for example).

None of these passages say what is being claimed. And again, your understanding of the present tense is off base.

Show me in scripture where it uses a "past tense" "Believed" and the person is still in a saved state.

Be happy to.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice all the aorist tenses (past tense):
1. were included in Christ
2. when you heard the message of truth
3. when you believed

Now, what is the result of all these past tense actions?
1. the believer was marked in Christ with a seal, who is the Holy Spirit. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given WHEN one believes.
2. Note that Jesus promised the coming of the Holy Spirit who will be with us forever, per John 14:16.
3. And this sealing is described as a deposit, which GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance until redemption.

It couldn't be any more clear than this.

Otherwise, if you cannot find scripture that uses a past tense " whoever so believed"- "will not perish"

Nitty picky. Eph 1:13,14 is clear enough.

The biblical position is that one can lose their salvation once they fail to obey scripture and discontinue in believing (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

No it's not. When one believes, Jesus gives them eternal life, and the result is that they shall never perish.

John 10:28a is a CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ: "I GIVE them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security: "and they shall never perish."

To convince anyone that the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost, and that there is no eternal security during one's life, you're going to have to show that John 10:28a is NOT about CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

That will be impossible.

 

[Acts2:38]

I said:
"In John 5:24 and 6:47 Jesus said "whoever believes" and "the one who believes" HAS eternal life. So, what does that mean? It means they possess the gift of eternal life WHEN they have believed. iow, the gift is GIVEN WHEN one believes."


I totally disagree with this. The Bible clearly states that one is saved when one believes. All that you'd included adds up to human effort or works.

Consider this: to "remain faithful" requires the rest of one's life. So that would mean salvation could not be given UNTIL one leaves earth, if they "remained faithful".

If a person has to remain faithful, then they are in fact saving themselves by their lifestyle/behavior. There is NOTHING in Scripture that one must remain faithful to be saved. There are many verses that indicate that salvation is based on a point in time (aorist tense) belief in Christ.


This is a common argument among the OSNAS crowd. However, it is an abuse of the present tense.

What this implies is that the results of a present tense are based on continuing the action. Please cite any source that teaches this.

otoh, the present tense ONLY refers to an action that is occurring in the present, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. There is NOTHING in the present tense that indicates the results of a present action only continue IF the action continues, which is what you're basically arguing.

In fact, the common use of the aorist tense (means point in time, usually in the past, and a completed action) REFUTES your claim.

Furthermore, from Jn 5;24 and 6:47, Jesus SAID those who believe possess (have) eternal life. That has to mean they possess it WHEN they initially believed.

Therefore, when Jesus made His statement in Jn 10:28a, He sealed the deal on OSAS.

Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. So this statement applies FROM THE MOMENT one believes, which is WHEN they possess eternal life.

To argue for loss of salvation, one has to reject what Jesus said in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.


The action of placing one's full trust in Christ a Savior really has nothing to do with obeying commands. This is just a very thinly disguised works based system of salvation. No different than what the Pharisees believed and taught.


Jesus never said what you are claiming. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. And before that He made clear that eternal life is possessed when one believes, not at the end of their lives, after "proving" their obedience and faithfulness.


No, it doesn't. Your understanding of the Greek present tense is false.


See above.


None of these passages say what is being claimed. And again, your understanding of the present tense is off base.


Be happy to.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice all the aorist tenses (past tense):
1. were included in Christ
2. when you heard the message of truth
3. when you believed

Now, what is the result of all these past tense actions?
1. the believer was marked in Christ with a seal, who is the Holy Spirit. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given WHEN one believes.
2. Note that Jesus promised the coming of the Holy Spirit who will be with us forever, per John 14:16.
3. And this sealing is described as a deposit, which GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance until redemption.

It couldn't be any more clear than this.


Nitty picky. Eph 1:13,14 is clear enough.


No it's not. When one believes, Jesus gives them eternal life, and the result is that they shall never perish.

John 10:28a is a CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ: "I GIVE them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security: "and they shall never perish."

To convince anyone that the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost, and that there is no eternal security during one's life, you're going to have to show that John 10:28a is NOT about CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

That will be impossible.

Hello and thank you for your time with me. Please glance over at Galatians 5:4.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

If I may ask, what does this verse state?

Also what is the current affiliation the Galatians have that Paul speaking to (Christian/non-Christian/etc)?

Lastly, pending on your answer to the second question, if the Galatians are OSAS, what is the point of Gal.5:4 and why would it need to be inserted at all in scripture?

Also, if you cared to see to these links that may explain it differently than I. If not, that is fine too, however, you'd be pressed on this information eventually by me so you might as well see.

But Were They Really Saved?

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Nope, these verses have nothing to do with the ones such as John 5:24 or in chpt 6.

In John 5, Jesus is talking to NON Christians. He is letting them know that if the believe (verb/ requires action. Verb requiring obedience which is action hence John 14:15; John 15:14) then they can be saved.

On a side note: In reference to John 14:15 and John 15:14 - If one does His commands they love Him right? What then, happens when you don't do the commands? What happens when you STOP doing the commands? Would you be considered and enemy perhaps?

In Ephesians, Paul is talking to people who are ALREADY Christians, hence the past tense use. It is quite clear they are CONTINUING (present tense because believing is constant- verb/action) in their gospel call if you see to Eph 1:15 as Paul praises them. This means they are STILL striving to follow Christ and the teachings. If you are STILL in Christ, obviously you are still in a saved state.

So, I ask you the same thing again. Let me word it differently though for you. Show me in scripture where someone can believe in the past, then sin, not repent, and still be saved.

 

[Acts2:38]

This required a separate response. Although this may be a discussion for a separate thread, I will respond anyhow here.

I totally disagree with this. The Bible clearly states that one is saved when one believes. All that you'd included adds up to human effort or works.

What do you think of James 2:14 and following?

Furthermore, and I already asked this in the other reply I made, what would one be doing if they obeyed a 'command'? Let's say, Matthew 28:19-20. Is that not a work? Please explain.

Also, what do you think of this verse, John 6:29- "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ? If believing is considered a work, are we all in trouble then according to you?

Consider this: to "remain faithful" requires the rest of one's life. So that would mean salvation could not be given UNTIL one leaves earth, if they "remained faithful".

If a person has to remain faithful, then they are in fact saving themselves by their lifestyle/behavior. There is NOTHING in Scripture that one must remain faithful to be saved. There are many verses that indicate that salvation is based on a point in time (aorist tense) belief in Christ.

Revelation 2:10 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I think these 3 scriptures make the point quite clear. There is no need to really say anything else.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello and thank you for your time with me. Please glance over at Galatians 5:4.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

If I may ask, what does this verse state?

The words are clear enough. Those who have returned to the Law and its sacrifices have fallen from grace. Meaning, no blessings from God. That's what "no effect" means. But I know what you're thinking. It's a verse about losing salvation.

But it says nothing about either salvation or losing it.

How about glancing over at John 5:24, 6:47 and then 10:28a and telling me that anyone who has received eternal life CAN perish.

Also what is the current affiliation the Galatians have that Paul speaking to (Christian/non-Christian/etc)?

Your question is not clear.

Lastly, pending on your answer to the second question, if the Galatians are OSAS, what is the point of Gal.5:4 and why would it need to be inserted at all in scripture?

Because believers who rely on legalism will lose blessings. iow, it's a warning.

Also, if you cared to see to these links that may explain it differently than I. If not, that is fine too, however, you'd be pressed on this information eventually by me so you might as well see.

But Were They Really Saved?

OK, what about it? There is no indication or statement about Judas ever believing in Jesus as Messiah. But plenty of verses about being a thief, and an opportunist.

The Bible doesn't say Simon the sorcerer lost salvation. Whatever would give anyone that idea?

Nope, these verses have nothing to do with the ones such as John 5:24 or in chpt 6.

I showed from Eph 1:13,14 what happens to one who "has believed". They are sealed with the Spirit, a deposit which GUARANTEES their redemption.

But one is free to reject what is clearly stated in Scripture.

Furthermore, where is your evidence that supports your claim about the present tense in Greek? Without that, it's just pretext.

In John 5, Jesus is talking to NON Christians. He is letting them know that if the believe (verb/ requires action. Verb requiring obedience which is action hence John 14:15; John 15:14) then they can be saved.

No. He tells them plainly that they must believe in Him. That means to trust in Him alone for salvation.

On a side note: In reference to John 14:15 and John 15:14 - If one does His commands they love Him right? What then, happens when you don't do the commands?

Shows that you don't love Him. But says nothing of not being saved, or of losing salvation.

What happens when you STOP doing the commands? Would you be considered and enemy perhaps?

Sure. But how does that equate to losing salvation? When children become rebellious, they have become enemies of their parents. But they are still their parents' children.

Do you not understand WHY the Bible uses Parent - child wording for the believer's relationship to God? Just as the physical relationship between parent and child CANNOT be undone, neither can the spiritual relationship between God and believer be.

In Ephesians, Paul is talking to people who are ALREADY Christians, hence the past tense use. It is quite clear they are CONTINUING (present tense because believing is constant- verb/action) in their gospel call if you see to Eph 1:15 as Paul praises them. This means they are STILL striving to follow Christ and the teachings. If you are STILL in Christ, obviously you are still in a saved state.

Still missing the whole point. Where is any evidence that the Greek present tense means what you are claiming?

So, I ask you the same thing again. Let me word it differently though for you. Show me in scripture where someone can believe in the past, then sin, not repent, and still be saved.

I DID. Jesus said those He gives eternal life (which we KNOW is WHEN they believe), they shall never perish.

Now, where did Jesus insert any conditions, like "must continue to believe/obey/etc"? He didn't. John 10:28a is straight up CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Now, please deal with my verses, as I have with all yours.

All you've done so far is deflect from my verses, as if they cannot mean what they so clearly SAY.

Since you disagree that those given eternal life (meaning they ARE saved) CAN perish, IN SPITE of the fact that Jesus SAID they shall NEVER perish, please explain what Jesus was really meaning.

This means explain John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28a.

I look forward to your explanation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This required a separate response. Although this may be a discussion for a separate thread, I will respond anyhow here.

I said:
"I totally disagree with this. The Bible clearly states that one is saved when one believes. All that you'd included adds up to human effort or works."

What do you think of James 2:14 and following?

I cannot imagine how James 2:14-26 relates to what I said about salvation being about believing, apart from works.

But since you asked, the point of James here is that those who have faith must demonstrate their faith before others, otherwise, they are hypocrites. Yes, James never used that word, but being a brother of Jesus, there is no doubt he was well aware of how many times his brother called the religious leaders of the day (Pharisees) hypocrites.

Ch 2 even begins with an example of hypocrisy in how people treat poor people in relation to rich people.

And, the 2 verses following 2:14 give an obvious example of a hypocrite.

Furthermore, and I already asked this in the other reply I made, what would one be doing if they obeyed a 'command'?

Demonstrating their love.

Let's say, Matthew 28:19-20. Is that not a work? Please explain.

It's a work of evangelism. How does that relate to one's own salvation?

Also, what do you think of this verse, John 6:29- "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ? If believing is considered a work, are we all in trouble then according to you?

Given the entire context, I think Jesus was speaking tongue-in-cheek when He said "work of God". The Jews were works-focused.

Consider v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Their question revealed their FALSE notions that one is saved by doing works. So Jesus used 'works' in His answer to them.

And v.29 shows that what is required for salvation to to "believe on Him (Jesus) whom God has sent". No works involved.

Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 provide explanation of the DIFFERENCE between faith and works.

Revelation 2:10 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I think these 3 scriptures make the point quite clear. There is no need to really say anything else.

One thing is clear. None of these 3 verses support your notion that salvation is by works or that one can lose their salvation.

Rev 2:10 is about faithfulness resulting in eternal reward.

Heb 3:14 is about fellowship and partnership with Christ. Not about getting saved.

1 John 2:24 is also about fellowship.

If you don't have a Bible study software, use an on-line site and search for the word "fellowship" and read each one. This word is nearly unknown to many many believers.

They have no clue about what it even is, or how to have it.

Believers can be in fellowship or out of fellowship and still be saved.

The best example is the prodigal son in Luke 15. He was ALWAYS a son, throughout the entire parable. Even when he wanted to demote himself, it didn't work.

Leaving his father showed loss of fellowship. Returning to his father showed restoration of fellowship.

If your pastor doesn't teach this concept, then you'll have no idea what I've been talking about. Which would be sad.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost see things only as saved or lost. And people moving between the two. What they completely miss is the principle of fellowship, which explains all the verses wrongly used to support loss of salvation.

What CAN be lost is fellowship with the Lord. We need to "abide" in Him in order to be in fellowship.

A question: can a husband and wife be out of fellowship with each other and still be married? Of course they can. And guess what; the Bible uses those words to describe the relationship between Christ and His church.

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning Galatians 5:4, it is clearly referring to loss of salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith, Ephesians 2:8a. So if we fall from grace, we lose out on salvation, since according to Ephesians grace is what we are saved BY. I really think you have butchered Galatians 5:4 in order to make it fit your OSAS theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Concerning Galatians 5:4, it is clearly referring to loss of salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith, Ephesians 2:8a. So if we fall from grace, we lose out on salvation, since according to Ephesians grace is what we are saved BY.

This is making a conclusion based on a leap. But not Scripture.

Is there any verse that says what you're claiming? No.

I really think you have butchered Galatians 5:4 in order to make it fit your OSAS theology.

Of course you'd think so. I refuted your misunderstanding of it.

However, you still haven't explained what Jesus was teaching in John 10:28a since you don't believe it was eternal security.

And yet the verse is so clear. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

He couldn't have been more clear.

So, what did He mean?

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's not switch the focus to a different scripture. Galatians 5:4 says that certain people are fallen from grace. Ephesians 2:8 says that grace is what we are saved BY. This is scripture. How can one who is saved BY grace not lose their salvation if they fall from grace? Grace is what saves us. No grace, no salvation!

As for John 10:28, I think it only applies as long as you are one of Jesus' sheep, which is defined by John 10:27.

And I am also looking at Galatians 5:4 from the perspective that every verse of scripture has the ability to stand on its own as being a statement of truth. So we must consider that it teaches that one can fall from grace and thus salvation since we ae saved BY grace through faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's not switch the focus to a different scripture.

Hold on a sec. I had already brought up John 5:24 and 6:47 in relation to 10:28a and you've yet to respond to any of these verses.

Galatians 5:4 says that certain people are fallen from grace.

I already commented on the verse.

Ephesians 2:8 says that grace is what we are saved BY.

But it does NOT say that we are kept by grace, as you keep claiming. And no verse says that.

We are kept by God Himself, on the basis of a point in time faith. That's what the aorist tense means.

Consider Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved.

Paul said: "believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:9. So, IF salvation was dependent upon continuing to believe (which NO verse says), how could he have used the WRONG TENSE?

This is scripture. How can one who is saved BY grace not lose their salvation if they fall from grace?

Because Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life. But you keep ignoring or dodging that verse.

Grace is what saves us. No grace, no salvation!

Show me ANY verse that makes this claim.

As for John 10:28, I think it only applies as long as you are one of Jesus' sheep, which is defined by John 10:27.

Why didn't Jesus say that? And your "conclusion" is only an assumption. There are no verses that back up your opinion.

The verse is very clear. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

The only "loop-hole" to escape the obvious meaning of John 10:28a is to claim that eternal life is given at the END of one's life, when they enter eternity.

But, if that were true, where are the verses that say that? There aren't any.

Further, Jesus' statement would be silly, since it would be more than obvious that they would never perish if eternal life was only given at the END of one's life. Duh.

And I am also looking at Galatians 5:4 from the perspective that every verse of scripture has the ability to stand on its own as being a statement of truth.

But ignoring the clear words of John 10:28a.

So we must consider that it teaches that one can fall from grace and thus salvation since we ae saved BY grace through faith.

It absolutely DOES teach that a believer can fall from grace! But that doesn't mean that one loses salvation.

Haven't you considered that IF one can lose salvation AND perish, then Jesus' words in John 10:28a are worthless and wrong???

 

[justbyfaith]

Now you hold on a sec. I actually BELIEVE in eternal security. But I am merely pointing out that my observation of Galatians 5:4 is that it seems to be teaching otherwise. If a person goes back to trusting in the law to save him, he or she is fallen from grace. Grace means salvation. We are not maintained by our works, so yes we are maintained because of the grace of God. If we lose contact with grace we lose contact with the thing that saves us. Conclusion...salvation is also lost when a person falls from grace. This my exegesis of Galatians 5:4 with Ephesians 2:8 and not your eisegesis. Maybe the person who falls from grace is the person in the parable of the sower who believes for a short season but falls away in a time of temptation. But he who is of the good soil is eternally secure, I will not argue with that. See also 2 Timothy 2:19.