SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[Butch5]

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE!!

God does not take back nor allow man to give back His SALVATION...PAST completed TENSE! (AORIST!)

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"", (now!!)
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ)
He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...

QUESTIONS:
1. Can one lose or give back the completed saving work of Jesus the Divine Messiah? If so, copy and paste supporting verses in context.
2. What must one DO to be saved? UNsaved?
3. Does one need to spiritually discern anything further than John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 to be saved? Romans 10? Acts 16:31?
4. Is Salvation an EVENT?
5. Is Sanctification a PROCESS?

None of the passages you posted indicate that salvation can't be lost.

 

[Butch5]

Sir, you addressed none of my refutations and questions adequately. What is the point of continuing any dialog with you when you essentially say, "LA LA LA, I cant hear you! This is what I think!"

That's no discussion.

That's usually the way this topic goes. The OSAS side has no argument, but rather only uses proof-text taken out of context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's usually the way this topic goes. The OSAS side has no argument, but rather only uses proof-text taken out of context.

Really? No argument, huh?

Well, let's put that to rest with absolute proof from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

I will provide an exegesis to show that John 10:28a speaks of eternal security, or OSAS. I will number each point for easy reference for those who wish to address my exegesis.

1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”.

2. The 1st phrase states the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself. He gives eternal life; therefore He is the CAUSE of possession of it.

3. The 2nd phrase is the DIRECT EFFECT of the possession of eternal life: recipients shall never perish.

4. So, v.28a provides a CAUSE and EFFECT statement. Jesus is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life, and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life is never perishing.

5. The “them” in the 1st phrase refers back to v.27 and “My sheep”.

6. In v.27 Jesus describes His sheep as those who “listen”, those who He “knows” and those who “follow Him”.

7. John quotes Jesus in earlier verses teaching that those who believe in Him possess eternal life. John 5:24 and 6:47 say this directly.

8. So we know that v.27 isn’t a condition for receiving eternal life, but a description of what His sheep do. Not how they become His sheep.

9. We know HOW one becomes His sheep from John 10:9 - “I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved.” In many other verses, the way to be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ.

10. Therefore, the sheep of v.27 are believers.

11. Therefore, believers are given eternal life.

12. Therefore, from 5:24 and 6:47, believers are given eternal life WHEN they believe, since there are no verses that speak of receiving the gift of eternal life any time AFTER believing in Christ.

13. Therefore, the 2nd phrase of v.28a becomes truth WHEN one initially believes in Christ.

14. Therefore, WHEN one initially believes in Christ, they shall never perish.

I am giving the opportunity for OSNAS doctrine to defend its position by refuting my position, which is OSAS.

I’ve made it extremely easy by numbering all my points.

If OSNAS is biblical truth, then it will be very easy to refute my points, which would have to be biblically untrue.

If OSAS is not biblically true, then at least most of my points must be in error.

Refutation of my points is not done by ignoring the points and merely quoting verses/passages from other contexts, passages and books. That’s just talking over my points.

In order to refute one’s pov, one must engage my pov, by addressing the points I’ve made.

 

[Butch5]

Really? No argument, huh?

Well, let's put that to rest with absolute proof from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

I will provide an exegesis to show that John 10:28a speaks of eternal security, or OSAS. I will number each point for easy reference for those who wish to address my exegesis.

1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”.

2. The 1st phrase states the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself. He gives eternal life; therefore He is the CAUSE of possession of it.

3. The 2nd phrase is the DIRECT EFFECT of the possession of eternal life: recipients shall never perish.

4. So, v.28a provides a CAUSE and EFFECT statement. Jesus is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life, and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life is never perishing.

5. The “them” in the 1st phrase refers back to v.27 and “My sheep”.

6. In v.27 Jesus describes His sheep as those who “listen”, those who He “knows” and those who “follow Him”.

7. John quotes Jesus in earlier verses teaching that those who believe in Him possess eternal life. John 5:24 and 6:47 say this directly.

8. So we know that v.27 isn’t a condition for receiving eternal life, but a description of what His sheep do. Not how they become His sheep.

9. We know HOW one becomes His sheep from John 10:9 - “I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved.” In many other verses, the way to be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ.

10. Therefore, the sheep of v.27 are believers.

11. Therefore, believers are given eternal life.

12. Therefore, from 5:24 and 6:47, believers are given eternal life WHEN they believe, since there are no verses that speak of receiving the gift of eternal life any time AFTER believing in Christ.

13. Therefore, the 2nd phrase of v.28a becomes truth WHEN one initially believes in Christ.

14. Therefore, WHEN one initially believes in Christ, they shall never perish.

I am giving the opportunity for OSNAS doctrine to defend its position by refuting my position, which is OSAS.

I’ve made it extremely easy by numbering all my points.

If OSNAS is biblical truth, then it will be very easy to refute my points, which would have to be biblically untrue.

If OSAS is not biblically true, then at least most of my points must be in error.

Refutation of my points is not done by ignoring the points and merely quoting verses/passages from other contexts, passages and books. That’s just talking over my points.

In order to refute one’s pov, one must engage my pov, by addressing the points I’ve made.

Yes, really. No argument. Your exegesis is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, really. No argument. Your exegesis is wrong.

Oh, that's good. Just your opinion, and poof! It's right?

How about actually doing some work and showing me how and why it's wrong?

Anyone can offer an opinion. You and I. But it's it's the evidence that counts and makes a difference.

I believe John 10:28a is the most clear statement in all of God's Word on eternal security.

So, if I'm wrong, why not explain to the thread why it is?

Just remember that I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. So if anyone can explain exactly how my exegesis fails, I'd appreciate it.

But I don't think it's possible for anyone to do that.

At least I'm giving anyone the opportunity to do so. I'm not just throwing down an opinion by saying OSAS is right and OSNAS is wrong. I've exegeted a verse that says so.

So, if I'm wrong, prove it. Not with an opinion, but with evidence of what John 10:28a actually says and means.

 

[Butch5]

Oh, that's good. Just your opinion, and poof! It's right?

How about actually doing some work and showing me how and why it's wrong?

Anyone can offer an opinion. You and I. But it's it's the evidence that counts and makes a difference.

I believe John 10:28a is the most clear statement in all of God's Word on eternal security.

So, if I'm wrong, why not explain to the thread why it is?

Just remember that I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. So if anyone can explain exactly how my exegesis fails, I'd appreciate it.

But I don't think it's possible for anyone to do that.

At least I'm giving anyone the opportunity to do so. I'm not just throwing down an opinion by saying OSAS is right and OSNAS is wrong. I've exegeted a verse that says so.

So, if I'm wrong, prove it. Not with an opinion, but with evidence of what John 10:28a actually says and means.

Actually, you did just give me your opinion. It's your opinion of what the passage means. And, I've addressed your arguments in the past. However, since you think this passage is iron clad proof, I'll address it. You, said, "1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”." For clarity who is it that He gives eternal life to?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, you did just give me your opinion.

No, I gave an exegesis of John 10:28, since you didn't notice. All you gave was a one-liner opinion. A vast difference.

It's your opinion of what the passage means.

OK, back that up with an exegesis of your own that proves the verse says something completely different than what I said.

And, I've addressed your arguments in the past. However, since you think this passage is iron clad proof, I'll address it. You, said, "1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”." For clarity who is it that He gives eternal life to?

I'm not going to do your research for you. I've already exegeted v.28a. And I did explain who the "them" and the "they" are.

So, will you exegete the verse or not?

 

[Butch5]

No, I gave an exegesis of John 10:28, since you didn't notice. All you gave was a one-liner opinion. A vast difference.

Since the Bible doesn't talk and I don't think Jesus specifically told you what the passage means, you're giving your opinion of it. That's what everyone does.

OK, back that up with an exegesis of your own that proves the verse says something completely different than what I said.

Exegesis? You said you wanted someone to prove your's wrong.

I'm not going to do your research for you. I've already exegeted v.28a. And I did explain who the "them" and the "they" are.

So, will you exegete the verse or not?

Well, there you go. I ask a simple question for clarification and you refuse to answer. What kind of discussion is that? Others have had problems getting you to answer questions also. However, since you won't answer I'll show you just one way your exegesis is incorrect. In this passage those who receive eternal life are His sheep. Jesus also said,

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Matt. 15:24 KJV)

His Sheep, is Israel. He said He was only sent to Israel. We know every Israelite isn't saved the Scriptures show that. Thus the passage doesn't support OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since the Bible doesn't talk and I don't think Jesus specifically told you what the passage means, you're giving your opinion of it. That's what everyone does.

Which I've asked you to do as well. Give your exegesis of v.28a. It seems there is an unwillingness to do this, from all the stalling I'm seeing.

Exegesis? You said you wanted someone to prove your's wrong.

Well, everyone who has an opinion about any verse can exegete the verse. And those who are in disagreement means that at least one of them is wrong, and it shouldn't be that difficult to demonstrate.

Or, don't you believe that truth can trump falsehood every time? I sure do.

Well, there you go. I ask a simple question for clarification and you refuse to answer.

Wrong. I ALREADY did answer. I get the impression that you didn't even bother reading any of my post.

What kind of discussion is that?

It sure seems one-sided. I gave an exegesis, and you're at this point quite unwilling.

Others have had problems getting you to answer questions also.

Ha. Everyone who has ever read my posts KNOWS that I answer questions.

However, since you won't answer I'll show you just one way your exegesis is incorrect. In this passage those who receive eternal life are His sheep.

I already claimed that. But at least you've already shown that you failed to even bother reading my exegesis.

Jesus also said,

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Matt. 15:24 KJV)

His Sheep, is Israel. He said He was only sent to Israel. We know every Israelite isn't saved the Scriptures show that. Thus the passage doesn't support OSAS.

lol.

First, I also showed what Jesus had said WAY BEFORE John 10:28. I showed in John 5:24 and 6:47 that those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. It was part of my exegesis of WHY v.28a is about eternal security.

Second, Matt 15:24 isn't part of the context of John 10:28. Not hardly.

Third, the logic of the comment about Jesus being sent only to Israel is quite illogical.

What does the fact that "every Israelite isn't saved" have to do with OSAS? I see no connection between those 2 thoughts. They aren't even related.

Since there is such unwillingness to exegesis v.28a, I'll boil it down for you.

The 1st phrase in v.28a is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life. Jesus gives eternal life.

The 2nd phrase in v.28a is the RESULT or EFFECT of possession of eternal life. They shall never perish.

To summarize, I've shown both CAUSE and EFFECT about eternal security from v.28a.

Now, since you don't agree, go ahead and show why and how that verse doesn't show both CAUSE and EFFECT about eternal security.

Now, how ya gonna show that v.28a isn't about eternal security?

This gonna be good.

 

[Butch5]

Which I've asked you to do as well. Give your exegesis of v.28a. It seems there is an unwillingness to do this, from all the stalling I'm seeing.


Well, everyone who has an opinion about any verse can exegete the verse. And those who are in disagreement means that at least one of them is wrong, and it shouldn't be that difficult to demonstrate.

Or, don't you believe that truth can trump falsehood every time? I sure do.


Wrong. I ALREADY did answer. I get the impression that you didn't even bother reading any of my post.


It sure seems one-sided. I gave an exegesis, and you're at this point quite unwilling.


Ha. Everyone who has ever read my posts KNOWS that I answer questions.


I already claimed that. But at least you've already shown that you failed to even bother reading my exegesis.


lol.

First, I also showed what Jesus had said WAY BEFORE John 10:28. I showed in John 5:24 and 6:47 that those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. It was part of my exegesis of WHY v.28a is about eternal security.

Second, Matt 15:24 isn't part of the context of John 10:28. Not hardly.

Third, the logic of the comment about Jesus being sent only to Israel is quite illogical.

What does the fact that "every Israelite isn't saved" have to do with OSAS? I see no connection between those 2 thoughts. They aren't even related.

Since there is such unwillingness to exegesis v.28a, I'll boil it down for you.

The 1st phrase in v.28a is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life. Jesus gives eternal life.

The 2nd phrase in v.28a is the RESULT or EFFECT of possession of eternal life. They shall never perish.

To summarize, I've shown both CAUSE and EFFECT about eternal security from v.28a.

Now, since you don't agree, go ahead and show why and how that verse doesn't show both CAUSE and EFFECT about eternal security.

Now, how ya gonna show that v.28a isn't about eternal security?

This gonna be good.

You can exegete it if you like. However, as I pointed out the sheep are the house of Israel and Jesus said He had only come to Israel. Therefore His words are to Israel. As I said in the post you originally quoted, the OSAS side has no argument because the passage are taken out of context. Here you're using a passage that is about Israel and applying out of context to all Christians.

 

[Butch5]

Another way that your exegesis is wrong is that when Jesus spoke of giving eternal life He used a present tense verb for believe. Literally, He said He gives eternal life to the one who, is believing". That's present tense. The promise only applies to the one who, is believing. It doesn't apply to the one who used to believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You can exegete it if you like.

Yes, thanks. I already did.

However, as I pointed out the sheep are the house of Israel and Jesus said He had only come to Israel. Therefore His words are to Israel.

Is this really an argument that all that has been quoted from Jesus only applies to Israel??

If so, then v.28a STILL teaches eternal security, but only to Israel. Happy with that?

As I said in the post you originally quoted, the OSAS side has no argument because the passage are taken out of context.

Once again, just an opinion without any evidence. But go ahead.

Here you're using a passage that is about Israel and applying out of context to all Christians.

Confusion abounds.

But it's clear you're not prepared to exegete the verse, so I understand.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, thanks. I already did.


Is this really an argument that all that has been quoted from Jesus only applies to Israel??

If so, then v.28a STILL teaches eternal security, but only to Israel. Happy with that?


Once again, just an opinion without any evidence. But go ahead.


Confusion abounds.

But it's clear you're not prepared to exegete the verse, so I understand.

Yes, it's to Israel. He spoke of His sheep and said His sheep is the house of Israel. That limits the passage to Israel. And, no, it doesn't prove OSAS to Israel alone because you have other parts of you exegesis wrong too. In addition, Jesus said that Judas was lost. Judas was an Israelite this not every Israelite will be saved, thus no OSAS.

As for me exegeting the passage, it's not necessary. You gave your exegesis of the passage and said it was in your opinion the best evidence. I've shown that it's not evidence when understood in context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Another way that your exegesis is wrong is that when Jesus spoke of giving eternal life He used a present tense verb for believe.

"Another way"?

You've yet to show ANY way my exegesis is wrong. All I've seen are one-liner opinions, and without any evidence.

Literally, He said He gives eternal life to the one who, is believing". That's present tense. The promise only applies to the one who, is believing. It doesn't apply to the one who used to believe.

Well, got news for you. Your opinion here suggests (demands?) that a present tense verb DEMANDS that the results of action only occur as long as the action continues.

That is a blatant VIOLATION of Greek grammar. Please cite any legitimate scholarly work that teaches that in order for the results of a present tense action to occur, the present tense action must continue.

But I'll spare you the time and research. There aren't any. The present tense only refers to an action that is occuring PRESENTLY. Or NOW. It does NOT mean continuous action out into the future. Or results only occur as long as the action is occurring.

And I can prove it. No Greek grammar text has ever described the present tense in the way that you have opined.

Further, Paul used the aorist tense a number of times in relation to believing for salvation. To the jailer, Paul said to "believe (aorist) and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

In Rom 10:9,10 Paul again used the aorist tense for "believe".

The aorist tense means an action in a point in time, generally in past time.

In Eph 1:13 Paul used the aorist tense for "believe" and is actually translated "having believed" or "when you believed". And the result of having believed is being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the inheritance of God's possession.

Just another passage on eternal security.

So, the use of the aorist tense for "believe" for salvation refutes your opinion of the present tense.

Further, after proving from Scripture (Jesus' own words) that those who believe possess eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47, 10:28a proves eternal security.

Those who have been given eternal life shall never perish. And that FACT is in play WHEN one believes.

But I understand you're not prepared or able to exegete the verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it's to Israel. He spoke of His sheep and said His sheep is the house of Israel.

Sorry, but He also spoke of "other sheep of Mine" in John 10:16 - 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

This was a prophesy of what Paul wrote about in Eph 2 about both Jews and Gentiles being united in Christ.

That limits the passage to Israel.

So, wrong again.

And, no, it doesn't prove OSAS to Israel alone because you have other parts of you exegesis wrong too.

OK, more opinion, without any evidence.

In addition, Jesus said that Judas was lost. Judas was an Israelite this not every Israelite will be saved, thus no OSAS.

What does eternal security have to do with not all Jews will be saved? I don't see any connection at all.

As for me exegeting the passage, it's not necessary.

Well, in order to prove that my exegesis is wrong, it is necessary.

But I understand you're either not prepared nor capable of exegeting the verse.

You gave your exegesis of the passage and said it was in your opinion the best evidence. I've shown that it's not evidence when understood in context.

You've shown nothing other than some opinions.

But I understand.

 

[Butch5]

"Another way"?

You've yet to show ANY way my exegesis is wrong. All I've seen are one-liner opinions, and without any evidence.


Well, got news for you. Your opinion here suggests (demands?) that a present tense verb DEMANDS that the results of action only occur as long as the action continues.

That is a blatant VIOLATION of Greek grammar. Please cite any legitimate scholarly work that teaches that in order for the results of a present tense action to occur, the present tense action must continue.

But I'll spare you the time and research. There aren't any. The present tense only refers to an action that is occuring PRESENTLY. Or NOW. It does NOT mean continuous action out into the future. Or results only occur as long as the action is occurring.

And I can prove it. No Greek grammar text has ever described the present tense in the way that you have opined.

Further, Paul used the aorist tense a number of times in relation to believing for salvation. To the jailer, Paul said to "believe (aorist) and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

In Rom 10:9,10 Paul again used the aorist tense for "believe".

The aorist tense means an action in a point in time, generally in past time.

In Eph 1:13 Paul used the aorist tense for "believe" and is actually translated "having believed" or "when you believed". And the result of having believed is being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the inheritance of God's possession.

Just another passage on eternal security.

So, the use of the aorist tense for "believe" for salvation refutes your opinion of the present tense.

Further, after proving from Scripture (Jesus' own words) that those who believe possess eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47, 10:28a proves eternal security.

Those who have been given eternal life shall never perish. And that FACT is in play WHEN one believes.

But I understand you're not prepared or able to exegete the verse.

Yes, another way. You see you're reading things into what I said, just like with the Scriptures. I didn't say anything about the present tense and continuous. You've simply created a straw man. That's a fallacy. Create a straw man and then knock it down and try to make people think you've refuted my argument. I said present tense "Is believing". You've also conflated eternal life and saved. Notice in the passage you posted about the Jailer. Paul said, believe and you WILL BE saved. Will be is future tense. believe now and you will be, future tense, saved. However, he said saved, not eternal life. So. you're conflating the two.

Also, you've claimed that when one believes they possess eternal life. However, we can easily see that that is not the case. Christians die. By definition eternal life means one doesn't die. Thus one does not possess eternal life. The answer is in the other passage you quoted by Paul, Ephesians 1:14. Notice when they believe they received the down payment on their inheritance. They didn't receive the inheritance, but only received a down payment. The reason is because eternal life is given at the resurrection. Believers, when resurrected, will die no more.

Regarding you use of the word guarantee. The word that is translated guarantee in some translations
means a down payment. It doesn't mean that something is certain to happen.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Love the title. Rock on brother!

 

[Butch5]

Sorry, but He also spoke of "other sheep of Mine" in John 10:16 - 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

This was a prophesy of what Paul wrote about in Eph 2 about both Jews and Gentiles being united in Christ.


So, wrong again.


OK, more opinion, without any evidence.


What does eternal security have to do with not all Jews will be saved? I don't see any connection at all.


Well, in order to prove that my exegesis is wrong, it is necessary.

But I understand you're either not prepared nor capable of exegeting the verse.


You've shown nothing other than some opinions.

But I understand.

Firstly, Jesus didn't say who those other sheep were. However, it doesn't matter because He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That statement right there limits the passage to Israel and as such your exegesis of the passage is void. It's not about what you claim because Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of Israel. It's all about context. That's why I said in the other post, the OSAS side has no argument only passages out of context. Here you've posted several posts saying all kinds of stuff. But it's all out of context. The passage was in reference to Israel.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Firstly, Jesus didn't say who those other sheep were. However, it doesn't matter because He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That statement right there limits the passage to Israel and as such your exegesis of the passage is void. It's not about what you claim because Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of Israel. It's all about context. That's why I said in the other post, the OSAS side has no argument only passages out of context. Here you've posted several posts saying all kinds of stuff. But it's all out of context. The passage was in reference to Israel.

During His life He came for the lost sheep of Israel. In His death, He paid the sin debt for all.

The two sheep pens are the Jews and Gentiles. One which came from and through the Old Covenant into the New Covenant and the other never under the Old Covenant, only the New Covenant.

@FreeGrace2 is right about this one.

 

[Butch5]

During His life He came for the lost sheep of Israel. In His death, He paid the sin debt for all.

The two sheep pens are the Jews and Gentiles. One which came from and through the Old Covenant into the New Covenant and the other never under the Old Covenant, only the New Covenant.

@FreeGrace2 is right about this one.

All one can do is speculate. Jesus never said who the other sheep were. However, that doesn't affect what I said because the words of Jesus that FreeGrace 2 is quoting were to Israel. How Gentiles enter into the equation is spelled out by Paul, but that came after Jesus words to the Israelites. My point is simply to show the context in which the passage was spoken. If one is going to apply the passage beyond what the context shows then they have to show how it applies beyond that context. FreeGrace2 hasn't done nor attempted that.