SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[FreeGrace2]

Those who believe for a while, and then fall away, do not have a living and saving faith.

Please provide Scripture that says this. I do not believe "every spirit" or their opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, we are saved by grace through faith; so if faith is lacking, the conduit to grace and salvation is missing.

This simply either ignores or is totally ignorant of the FACT of the irrevocable things that occur once a person believes.
1. justification
2. regeneration
3. possessing eternal life. That means they shall never perish.
4. child of God
4. sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption

One cannot have salvation without faith.

That is the way one get saved. But one one believed, see the list above. They are permanent.

There are NO VERSES that tell us that any of these things can be removed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And I contend that there are NO verses that teach this. In fact, there are many verses that are commands for believers to live holy lives. Because it is not automatic nor guaranteed."

You contend wrongly.

Then prove it.

And I noticed that you cut out of your response in your quote of me the biblical backup that I gave for my statement.

They didn't back up your claim.

Do you confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

Of course. What a silly question.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The bottom line is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing. Period.

The point of v.28 is eternal security. No one can show otherwise.

So your point is verse 27 is incorrect. Those who hear and follow and those who don’t hear and follow are both His sheep? Like I said before can the gateway to heaven get any wider than that? Lol

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Yes, God IS able to keep the believer from falling.

But, that believer MUST be filled with the Spirit, and walking by His means. And he MUST NOT be grieving or quenching the Spirit.

That's how.

And of course you say this, to give false comfort to those who are quenching or grieving the Holy Spirit by teaching that they are definitely saved and that they aren't in any spiritual danger.

So, let me get this straight: I'm giving "false comfort" to believers by quoting Scripture.

Are you kidding? The ONLY comfort believers can have is FROM Scripture.

Hebrews 3:12-15 says, Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEDFAST UNTO THE END. Whilst it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

I've been just as clear about God's discipline for disobedient and unfaithful believers.

God's discipline is painful (Heb 12:11). The Bible gives examples of this.

1 Cor 5:5 where Paul turned over the incestuous man to the devil for "the destruction of the flesh". Are you aware of what that actually means?

1 Cor 10 - the Exodus generation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour.

One can contend all they want. It's what the Bible says that is important.

You've shown a serious lack of understanding of what the Bible says, esp about fellowship and spirituality.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The bottom line is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing. Period.

The point of v.28 is eternal security. No one can show otherwise."

So your point is verse 27 is incorrect. Those who hear and follow and those who don’t hear and follow are both His sheep? Like I said before can the gateway to heaven get any wider than that? Lol

Still failing to understand what I have said. v.27 isn't a condition for never perishing.

You've just failed to understand what Jesus said SO CLEARLY in v.28.

It is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. Period.

And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I said:
"The bottom line is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing. Period.

The point of v.28 is eternal security. No one can show otherwise."

Still failing to understand what I have said. v.27 isn't a condition for never perishing.

You've just failed to understand what Jesus said SO CLEARLY in v.28.

It is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. Period.

And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬

Who is “them” in verse 28?

 

[Alpha.Omega]

All citations to Scripture are to the NASB.

The New American Standard Bible is considered by some sources as the most literally translated of major 20th-century English Bible translations[4] According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:

1. These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.[5]

The NASB is an original translation from the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, based on the same principles of translation,

New American Standard Bible - Wikipedia

Note that all but one citation came from the mouth of Jesus.

Matthew 25 is JESUS' Prophecy of His JUDGMENT of the NATIONS (ethnos = societies). It is not a check list of necessary WORKS by a Man's spirit to make him worthy of Salvation.

Matthew 25:45-46(NASB)
45 Then He will answer them,
‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 These (unbelieving goat NATIONS) will go away into eternal (spiritual) punishment,
but the (believing sheep NATIONS) righteous into eternal (spiritual) life.”

Jesus/God does want not your "on your own" "filthy rags" works....
(SEE: Isaiah 64:6(NASB))
...before you are saved:
FIRST:
BELIEVE unto the Salvation Event
...then...
FOLLOW unto the Sancrification Process.

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Is the spiritual POSITION of truly saved believers in the heavenly realms NOW? YES!

Psalm 18:35
You have also given me the shield of Your salvation, And Your right hand upholds me; And Your gentleness makes me great.

Colossians 3:1[ Put On the New Self ]
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Hello Ron, I see that you missed a verse in your OP, Romans 11:29, which the NASB reads: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable". I mention this, not because I agree with this translation, but, the fact that you praise the NASB, as if it were "Inspired by God" Himself! You say that it is ture to the original languages, and it is grammatically correct.

The adjective "ἀμεταμέλητος", the NASB, among other English versions, has rendered as "irrevocable", which is a strong word, denoting, "Not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final" (Oxford English Dictionary). However, the leading Greek scholars do not agree with this meaning to the Greek word.

"not to be repented of or regretted, one has nothing to repent of, having no opportunity of repentance, of persons, unrepentant, feeling no remorse" (Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, Greek-English Lexicon)

"not repented of, unregretted" (Joseph Thayer)

"not repented of, unregretted" (G Abbott-Smith)

"Without repentance (ametameleta). See on 2Co 7:10 for this word (a privative and metamelomai, to be sorry afterwards). It is not ametanoêton (Rom 2:5) from a privative and metanoeô, to change one's mind. God is not sorry for his gifts to and calling of the Jews (Rom 9:4)." (A T Robertson, Word Pictures)

""not repented of, unregretted" (a, negative, and a verbal adjective of A, No. 2), signifies "without change of purpose;" it is said
(a) of God in regard to his "gifts and calling," Romans 11:29;
(b) of man, 2 Corinthians 7:10, RV, "[repentance (metanoia, See C)] ... which bringeth no regret" (AV, "not to be repented of"); the difference between metanoia and metamelomai, illustrated here, is briefly expressed in the contrast between "repentance" and "regret." (W E Vine, Expository Dictionary)

 

[BNR32FAN]

All citations to Scripture are to the NASB.

The New American Standard Bible is considered by some sources as the most literally translated of major 20th-century English Bible translations[4] According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:

1. These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.[5]

The NASB is an original translation from the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, based on the same principles of translation,

New American Standard Bible - Wikipedia

Note that all but one citation came from the mouth of Jesus.

Matthew 25 is JESUS' Prophecy of His JUDGMENT of the NATIONS (ethnos = societies). It is not a check list of necessary WORKS by a Man's spirit to make him worthy of Salvation.

Matthew 25:45-46(NASB)
45 Then He will answer them,
‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 These (unbelieving goat NATIONS) will go away into eternal (spiritual) punishment,
but the (believing sheep NATIONS) righteous into eternal (spiritual) life.”

Jesus/God does want not your "on your own" "filthy rags" works....
(SEE: Isaiah 64:6(NASB))
...before you are saved:
FIRST:
BELIEVE unto the Salvation Event
...then...
FOLLOW unto the Sancrification Process.

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Is the spiritual POSITION of truly saved believers in the heavenly realms NOW? YES!

Psalm 18:35
You have also given me the shield of Your salvation, And Your right hand upholds me; And Your gentleness makes me great.

Colossians 3:1[ Put On the New Self ]
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

One problem I see with the NASB is Leviticus 26:1 the word image is translated from the Hebrew word pecel which is specific to carved idols. The word image is still used and a pretty inaccurate translation from the Hebrew word pecel.

 

[justbyfaith]

As @FreeGrace2 has said that he thinks that the scriptures that I have brought up do not in fact say what they really do say, I will leave it up to the reader to decide. To me, the testimony of scripture is self-explanatory and clear to the one who has a mind to meditate and think on what the scripture itself says (Psalms 1). I am confident that if anyone actually thinks about what I'm saying by the scriptures, they will come to the same conclusions I have. One must, of course, have an open mind to what the Bible has to say. If one is biased in their opinion or unbalanced in their thinking because of idol-like focus on a single verse, they simply will not get the message of what the rest of scripture is saying to them. They are willfully blind. The following passages are not intended as a judgment on anyone's salvation, but I quote them as a testimony about spiritual blindness:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

They are of the world, therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:5-6.

 

[EmSw]

That was brilliant.

As brilliant as your 'seeds don't believe'.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please provide Scripture that says this. I do not believe "every spirit" or their opinions.

If I show you scripture, you still won't believe. You will argue that "that scripture doesn't really say that," without backing up your claim. As that is what you do with every scripture that refutes your opinion, without fail.

 

[justbyfaith]

Oh wait...some of the time you simply ignore the scriptures presented, never addressing what obviously refutes your opinion except by hitting that one string on your one-stringed guitar.

 

[justbyfaith]

I contend that a living and saving faith will produce a change in behaviour. By faith, we receive the love of God, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:1-5). Real love is never in word only, but always in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Faith without works is dead; it cannot save. This is not to say that a deathbed conversion with no works following because of death will not save. But a living and saving faith will produce good works if given the opportunity. If the opportunity presents itself and the person disobeys, and does not do the foreordained work, that is the sign of a dead, unsalvational faith, that is not of the heart but only a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith. The person knows the Bible and believes that he believes and is going to heaven, but because the faith is not unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), a confession of Jesus as Lord would not be a true confession and therefore unsalvational, as to confess is to agree with God; so to mouth the words "Jesus is Lord," if He is not really your Lord (see Luke 6:46) is not a true confession: therefore a living and saving faith is UNTO (practical--1 John 3:7) RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[EmSw]

Since we all know Jesus wasn't speaking of literal sheep in His sayings, I would like for someone to tell us what sheep represented, or what is their character.

I'll start by saying sheep are followers. If sheep do not follow their shepherd, they put their lives at risk and even suffer death.

John 10:4
When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

So then, we can substitute sheep in the following verse as followers.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep (followers).

Anything else anyone wants to contribute is welcome.

 

[justbyfaith]

This simply either ignores or is totally ignorant of the FACT of the irrevocable things that occur once a person believes.
1. justification
2. regeneration
3. possessing eternal life. That means they shall never perish.
4. child of God
4. sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption


That is the way one get saved. But one one believed, see the list above. They are permanent.

There are NO VERSES that tell us that any of these things can be removed.

If someone crosses over into being a worker of iniquity, they will be cast into the furnace of fire according to Matthew 13:41-42; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Also, I think you've never read Ezekiel 18 or Ezekiel 33, as these chapters are clear that if someone departs from righteousness, they will die in their sins.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since we all know Jesus wasn't speaking of literal sheep in His sayings, I would like for someone to tell us what sheep represented, or what is their character.

I'll start by saying sheep are followers. If sheep do not follow their shepherd, they put their lives at risk and even suffer death.

John 10:4
When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

So then, we can substitute sheep in the following verse as followers.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep (followers).

Anything else anyone wants to contribute is welcome.

And John 10:27

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬

I’m not sure if people refuse to accept this out of blindness or their own arrogance and pride. I’m hoping it’s blindness because knowingly refuting the truth is much worse.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please provide Scripture that says this. I do not believe "every spirit" or their opinions.

Common sense should tell you that the Bible predicates salvation on faith in Jesus Christ: so if someone does not have faith in Jesus Christ they are not saved; regardless of whether they had faith in the past.

You are preaching to people that they can get a free ticket to heaven if they will believe for a moment and that subsequent faith righteousness isn't important. This is effectively preaching grace as a license for sin (see Jude 1:3-4 NIV). The Bible teaches that if you don't repent of this type of doctrine, your condemnation was marked out long ago.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Common sense should tell you that the Bible predicates salvation on faith in Jesus Christ: so if someone does not have faith in Jesus Christ they are not saved; regardless of whether they had faith in the past.

You are preaching to people that they can get a free ticket to heaven if they will believe for a moment and that subsequent faith righteousness isn't important. This is effectively preaching grace as a license for sin (see Jude 1:3-4 NIV). The Bible teaches that if you don't repent of this type of doctrine, your condemnation was marked out long ago.

And that people who once believed that turned to worship satan will go to heaven even against their will.