Salvation is . . .

[Light of the East]

ransom??? My understanding, from my priest in catechism and in other sources is that Orthodoxy looks to the medicinal understanding of Christ's work. No such thing as "paying a ransom"

But maybe I'm confused by terms. Could be. Not even Orthodox quite yet, so . . .

Please read this commentary and then help me understand if the idea of "ransom" has any place in Orthodox soteriological thinking.

Do Orthodox Christians Believe in the Atonement? / OrthoChristian.Com

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The “ransom” term must be understood not in the sense of God buying off Satan in some kind of kidnapping monetary Hardy Boys novel sense, but in the idea of stealing us from the evil ones clutches. He rescued us, and the price paid was His Death. He redeemed us. Redeeming in modern times really refers more to buying back than anything, and the ransom idea is one of pulling us out of hell back to where we belong, at a terrible price.

ransom??? My understanding, from my priest in catechism and in other sources is that Orthodoxy looks to the medicinal understanding of Christ's work. No such thing as "paying a ransom"

But maybe I'm confused by terms. Could be. Not even Orthodox quite yet, so . . .

Please read this commentary and then help me understand if the idea of "ransom" has any place in Orthodox soteriological thinking.

Do Orthodox Christians Believe in the Atonement? / OrthoChristian.Com

 

[ArmyMatt]

The “ransom” term must be understood not in the sense of God buying off Satan in some kind of kidnapping monetary Hardy Boys novel sense, but in the idea of stealing us from the evil ones clutches. He rescued us, and the price paid was His Death. He redeemed us. Redeeming in modern times really refers more to buying back than anything, and the ransom idea is one of pulling us out of hell back to where we belong, at a terrible price.

this. while the atonement is usually primarily seen as holistic and medicinal, there are other ways one can probably look at it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Mark 10:45: "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

 

[Light of the East]

this. while the atonement is usually primarily seen as holistic and medicinal, there are other ways one can probably look at it.

So do I understand correctly that when the Western mind thinks of ransom, it thinks of something different than Orthodoxy? This seems like a case of one word being seen in a multiplicity of ways.

 

[Light of the East]

The “ransom” term must be understood not in the sense of God buying off Satan in some kind of kidnapping monetary Hardy Boys novel sense, but in the idea of stealing us from the evil ones clutches. He rescued us, and the price paid was His Death. He redeemed us. Redeeming in modern times really refers more to buying back than anything, and the ransom idea is one of pulling us out of hell back to where we belong, at a terrible price.

So, my objection was to the following statement:

"His voluntary suffering and death on the cross for us, being of infinite value and merit, as the death of one sinless, God and man in one person, is both a perfect satisfaction to the justice of God, which had condemned us for sin to death, and a fund of infinite merit, which has obtained him the right, without prejudice to justice, to give us sinners pardon of our sins, and grace to have victory over sin and death."

Gurney, correct me if I am wrong, but this language absolutely smacks of Roman Catholic soteriological understanding when it speaks of "justice" and "merit." Am I wrong?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So do I understand correctly that when the Western mind thinks of ransom, it thinks of something different than Orthodoxy? This seems like a case of one word being seen in a multiplicity of ways.

yes, or only focusing on the ransom aspect.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'll ask Father Matt to sign off on what I'm about to say as he is wiser and more learned than ole Reader Gurney here, but my understanding of the Atonement in our Orthodox Faith is that it is very multi-dimensional. By that I mean that the Atonement cannot be summed up in one "theory" or abstract. The Orthodox Church EMPHASIZES one dimension of the Atonement---trampling death by death, Christ our True God became Man so that through His Death and Resurrection, we might become like God. The Lord infuses Life into a place of death and saves us from the pit. We Orthodox emphasize the resurrection far more than the West, who emphasize the Cross more. However, we know through Paul and Isaiah's words that there is a legal dimension to the Atonement as well. There is blood guilt and Isaiah paints a picture that some can see in a more forensic, legal sense.

The Catholic Church, when it was part of Orthodoxy, always focused more on the Augustinian style approach to the Atonement. The Cappadocian Fathers and the other great Eastern Saints focused more on crushing death by death and the restoration of life, less on sin. The West wasn't necessarily "wrong," so much as they lacked the fullness of the Eastern understanding to compliment their more juridical ones?

Like I said, Father might tell me I'm way off base here. He does that with Star Wars prequels, so I'm going to duck and prepare to get pummeled with cabbages and tomatoes

So, my objection was to the following statement:

"His voluntary suffering and death on the cross for us, being of infinite value and merit, as the death of one sinless, God and man in one person, is both a perfect satisfaction to the justice of God, which had condemned us for sin to death, and a fund of infinite merit, which has obtained him the right, without prejudice to justice, to give us sinners pardon of our sins, and grace to have victory over sin and death."

Gurney, correct me if I am wrong, but this language absolutely smacks of Roman Catholic soteriological understanding when it speaks of "justice" and "merit." Am I wrong?

 

[prodromos]

Pay attention to the sermon of St John Chrysostom, which is read during Matins at Pascha.

Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.​

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'll ask Father Matt to sign off on what I'm about to say as he is wiser and more learned than ole Reader Gurney here, but my understanding of the Atonement in our Orthodox Faith is that it is very multi-dimensional. By that I mean that the Atonement cannot be summed up in one "theory" or abstract. The Orthodox Church EMPHASIZES one dimension of the Atonement---trampling death by death, Christ our True God became Man so that through His Death and Resurrection, we might become like God. The Lord infuses Life into a place of death and saves us from the pit. We Orthodox emphasize the resurrection far more than the West, who emphasize the Cross more. However, we know through Paul and Isaiah's words that there is a legal dimension to the Atonement as well. There is blood guilt and Isaiah paints a picture that some can see in a more forensic, legal sense.

The Catholic Church, when it was part of Orthodoxy, always focused more on the Augustinian style approach to the Atonement. The Cappadocian Fathers and the other great Eastern Saints focused more on crushing death by death and the restoration of life, less on sin. The West wasn't necessarily "wrong," so much as they lacked the fullness of the Eastern understanding to compliment their more juridical ones?

Like I said, Father might tell me I'm way off base here. He does that with Star Wars prequels, so I'm going to duck and prepare to get pummeled with cabbages and tomatoes

pretty much. the only thing I would say is that we don’t emphasize the Resurrection more whereas the West emphasizes the Cross more. we just see the two intertwined. for us, you can’t speak of the Cross without speaking of the Resurrection, and you can’t speak of the Resurrection without speaking of the Cross. we hold those together so it seems like we emphasize the Resurrection.

 

[prodromos]

pretty much. the only thing I would say is that we don’t emphasize the Resurrection more whereas the West emphasizes the Cross more. we just see the two intertwined. for us, you can’t speak of the Cross without speaking of the Resurrection, and you can’t speak of the Resurrection without speaking of the Cross. we hold those together so it seems like we emphasize the Resurrection.

This approach is also reflected in the Feast of the Dormition of Mary. We celebrate her death and then subsequent assumption into heaven whereas the Catholics have focussed on her assumption to the almost complete exclusion of her death, such that many believe she did not actually die.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This approach is also reflected in the Feast of the Dormition of Mary. We celebrate her death and then subsequent assumption into heaven whereas the Catholics have focussed on her assumption to the almost complete exclusion of her death, such that many believe she did not actually die.

good point

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I stand by statement for one simple reason----the Catholic and Protestant West all year long talk about the Cross. "He died for my sins" and the Stabat Mater and the arrows piercing the heart of the Virgin, and the apocryphal stories and visions that inspired Mel Gibson to make The Passion of the Christ, "He paid the price for my sins" and the myriad references to the Cross and Good Friday far far far outweigh the discussion of Easter Sunday and the Resurrection. You can't disagree with me on that one! Then, in Orthodoxy, yes, we celebrate the Exaltation of the Holy Cross and Good and Holy Friday and reference His Death for our sakes, of course. However, throughout the year our troparions and kontakions and hymns and prayers mention the Resurrection and Trampling Death by Death more than we sing and hymn and hear about the Cross. While we DO care about the Cross, look at how many icons in the church show the Resurrection vs. the sorrowful death. I know the two go hand in hand. It's impossible to have one without the other, but I think "Christ the Victor" vs. "Christ the Victim" still portray Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism/Protestantism fairly accurately. I would never tell anyone "Orthodoxy isn't a Church of the Cross." That's nuts. St. Helena didn't go on a quest to find the True Cross because it was a silly footnote. It matters.

pretty much. the only thing I would say is that we don’t emphasize the Resurrection more whereas the West emphasizes the Cross more. we just see the two intertwined. for us, you can’t speak of the Cross without speaking of the Resurrection, and you can’t speak of the Resurrection without speaking of the Cross. we hold those together so it seems like we emphasize the Resurrection.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I stand by statement for one simple reason----the Catholic and Protestant West all year long talk about the Cross. "He died for my sins" and the Stabat Mater and the arrows piercing the heart of the Virgin, and the apocryphal stories and visions that inspired Mel Gibson to make The Passion of the Christ, "He paid the price for my sins" and the myriad references to the Cross and Good Friday far far far outweigh the discussion of Easter Sunday and the Resurrection. You can't disagree with me on that one! Then, in Orthodoxy, yes, we celebrate the Exaltation of the Holy Cross and Good and Holy Friday and reference His Death for our sakes, of course. However, throughout the year our troparions and kontakions and hymns and prayers mention the Resurrection and Trampling Death by Death more than we sing and hymn and hear about the Cross. While we DO care about the Cross, look at how many icons in the church show the Resurrection vs. the sorrowful death. I know the two go hand in hand. It's impossible to have one without the other, but I think "Christ the Victor" vs. "Christ the Victim" still portray Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism/Protestantism fairly accurately. I would never tell anyone "Orthodoxy isn't a Church of the Cross." That's nuts. St. Helena didn't go on a quest to find the True Cross because it was a silly footnote. It matters.

the only reason it seems that we focus on the Resurrection more throughout the year is because most folks only weekly go to Church on the Sunday cycle, where the focus is on the Resurrection. every Friday focuses on the Cross. we talk about both all year long.

plus we adorn our parishes and ourselves with the Cross, not the Empty Tomb. we make the sign of the Cross, we bless in the shape of the Cross.

Christ’s victimhood IS His victory. that’s why I say it only seems like we focus on His victory, because the West is so imbalanced.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

EXCELLENT explanation, Father.

the only reason it seems that we focus on the Resurrection more throughout the year is because most folks only weekly go to Church on the Sunday cycle, where the focus is on the Resurrection. every Friday focuses on the Cross. we talk about both all year long.

plus we adorn our parishes and ourselves with the Cross, not the Empty Tomb. we make the sign of the Cross, we bless in the shape of the Cross.

Christ’s victimhood IS His victory. that’s why I say it only seems like we focus on His victory, because the West is so imbalanced.

 

[ArmyMatt]

EXCELLENT explanation, Father.

thanks, I had good seminary professors

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And it takes a good student and paying attention to help the lessons bear fruit!

thanks, I had good seminary professors

 

[ArmyMatt]

And it takes a good student and paying attention to help the lessons bear fruit!

and a lot of pounding from the teachers (as good teachers are oft to do).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I oft do

and a lot of pounding from the teachers (as good teachers are oft to do).

 

[ArmyMatt]

I oft do

booyah