SALVATION---instant, or process?

Michie · Nov 13, 2002

new 2calvin,
I hope you don't mind but I took your statement & asked about it in General Apologetics here:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27453

I thought you might be interested & I thought that the questions I had might make us stray off the OP here.

I'm interested in the replies it may get.

You really put it quite simply & I liked that.

Thank you,
Michie

Blindfaith · Nov 13, 2002

Ummm....ditto's on reeann's statement (which I also posted on page 1 my friends).

Paul is very clear in Romans when he speaks about the gift of Salvation;

Justification

Sanctification

Glorification

Where's the problem?  bf scratches her head not understanding......

Blackhawk · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
However, you can have a pretty good assurance, but you can't ever assume you are righteous enough.

Okay first I will give another ditto to reeann's statement.  Salvation is both instant and a process.  However Souljah I was wondering what you meant by this statement above? Do you believe that we can have a righteousness of our own that will make it so that we are deserving of heaven?   

isshinwhat · Nov 15, 2002

Comment withdrawn.  I couldn't figure out what I was trying to say.

Neal

isshinwhat · Nov 15, 2002

So when someone tells you, "I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved," what they really mean is "I was saved, I am being sanctified and I will be holy in the end."

2 Timothy 1:8-9

Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Matthew 10:21-22

Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

I believe that if we hold firmly to our inheritance in Christ, through an active, loving faith, and by God's grace alone, we will be saved. But I also believe I am being saved, by God's merciful outpouring of grace, from falling into mortal sin, through which I can reject Christ. I believe I can claim these truths to be my own because I was shown as a child the loving fellowhip of God, and accepted communion with Him, and all that comes with it. Through that, I was saved.

Thanks be to God the Father, and to our Lord, Jesus Christ!

Neal

* kittie * · Nov 15, 2002

God wishes that everyone comes to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. so if we reject Him, it's our fault. yes, there is a veil over the eyes of the unbeliever...in which they really can't believe. but i believe that there is a point when the HS convicts them, and tries to draw them near. why else would the Bible say that "no one is with excuse"? if it was when "God chose us"...then it wouldn't be our fault.
so anyways...justification is instant. sanctification is never ending. until we die...

eldermike · Nov 15, 2002

I still like the body builder anaology. If you look at your body as justification (remember this is what we are to give back Romans 12). Then you can look at sanctification as a "work out" to build the body. If you don't work out you still keep the body but it's of little use to God so He dosn't give you any thing to do.

Blackhawk · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
I still like the body builder anaology. If you look at your body as justification (remember this is what we are to give back Romans 12). Then you can look at sanctification as a "work out" to build the body. If you don't work out you still keep the body but it's of little use to God so He dosn't give you any thing to do.

Good analogy Mike.  See with this analogy I can believe that in heaven I will finally have a good body literally and figuratively. 

reeann · Nov 15, 2002

I don't remember where in the Bible this is (I think its Ephesians, my skills are rusty...my own fault), but I do remember a verse I learned when I was first saved..

He who began (Salvation) a good work in you will carry it on to completion (santification) until the day of Christ Jesus (Glorification).

Elder Mike is right about not working out your body, i'm physically and spiritually exhuasted... i wonder if it has anything to do with not being in church or studying his word anymore????

I don't think God needs us to work out our salvation, i thinks its something we need to do for our own quality of health while we are here.

Blackhawk · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by reeann
I don't remember where in the Bible this is (I think its Ephesians, my skills are rusty...my own fault), but I do remember a verse I learned when I was first saved..

He who began (Salvation) a good work in you will carry it on to completion (santification) until the day of Christ Jesus (Glorification).

Phil 1:6
6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
(NAU)

Elder Mike is right about not working out your body, i'm physically and spiritually exhuasted... i wonder if it has anything to do with not being in church or studying his word anymore???? [/B]

I have felt the same way lately.  And I know it is because I hve not been with the source of my stregnth.  I have been so concerned about doing things like Martha instead of taking the time to sit and listen to God liek Mary.  I can relate to Martha and the stress she must of felt.

I don't think God needs us to work out our salvation, i thinks its something we need to do for our own quality of health while we are here. [/B]

Click to expand...

I agree except that I do not think that the phrase "working out our slavation" is wrong just a certain interpretation of what it means is wrong.

Phil 2:12-17
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
(NAU)

eldermike · Nov 15, 2002

Good analogy Mike. See with this analogy I can believe that in heaven I will finally have a good body literally and figuratively.

Amen!

Elder Mike is right about not working out your body, i'm physically and spiritually exhuasted... i wonder if it has anything to do with not being in church or studying his word anymore????

Bingo! God will refresh you. I pray right this minute for your time of refreshing.

Blessings

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

I think that Christianity, as a whole, has completely misunderstood what "faith in Yeshua" means. The Torah is the "Marriage Covenant." Obedience to the Torah is the method by which one places their faith in Yeshua. To reject the Torah is to reject the Marriage Covenant. Disobedience of the Torah commandments is likened in scripture to being an unfaithful bride -- an adulteress.

The Hebrew word for "faith" ('emunah") is a *verb* not a noun. One doesn't just "have faith" in Yeshua, but that faith must also be evidenced by faithfulness -- faithfulness to the Marriage Covenant, which is the Torah. 

Shimon

Michie · Nov 21, 2002

Exellent explaination Shimon!

Thank you!

Reformationist · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
I think that Christianity, as a whole, has completely misunderstood what "faith in Yeshua" means. The Torah is the "Marriage Covenant." Obedience to the Torah is the method by which one places their faith in Yeshua. To reject the Torah is to reject the Marriage Covenant. Disobedience of the Torah commandments is likened in scripture to being an unfaithful bride -- an adulteress.

The Hebrew word for "faith" ('emunah") is a *verb* not a noun. One doesn't just "have faith" in Yeshua, but that faith must also be evidenced by faithfulness -- faithfulness to the Marriage Covenant, which is the Torah. 

Shimon

Judaism seems to be a very works based religion to me.  It seems like a very interesting and wonderful culture so please don't be offended.  I believe what sets Christianity apart is that it is the only religion, by the grace of God, that understands that it is God who made provision for mankind, rather than it being our "obeying" or "rejecting" the Covenant that is what saves us.  You see, mankind are covenant breakers.  God is a covenant keeper.  From the first man, Adam, to the last man there will be we will break God's Law.  God, however, is a covenant keeper.  It is why we need a Savior.  We cannot obey our way into a relationship with God.  It is God who establishes that relationship.  Our obedience is a result of God bringing us back to life, not a means to get something from God.

God bless

Knight · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Judaism seems to be a very works based religion to me.  It seems like a very interesting and wonderful culture so please don't be offended.  I believe what sets Christianity apart is that it is the only religion, by the grace of God, that understands that it is God who made provision for mankind, rather than it being our "obeying" or "rejecting" the Covenant that is what saves us.  You see, mankind are covenant breakers.  God is a covenant keeper.  From the first man, Adam, to the last man there will be we will break God's Law.  God, however, is a covenant keeper.  It is why we need a Savior.  We cannot obey our way into a relationship with God.  It is God who establishes that relationship.  Our obedience is a result of God bringing us back to life, not a means to get something from God.

God bless

Good post Ref. I've observed the same thing myself. All current religions teach a works-based salvation formula. Christianity teaches a salvation based on the Grace of God.

I hate it when someone, especially a Christian, refers to Christianity as a religion. I once heard a pastor say something I thought very profound:

"Religion is Man seeking God. Christianity is God seeking Man."

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

Judaism seems to be a very works based religion to me.  It seems like a very interesting and wonderful culture so please don't be offended.  I believe what sets Christianity apart is that it is the only religion, by the grace of God, that understands that it is God who made provision for mankind, rather than it being our "obeying" or "rejecting" the Covenant that is what saves us.  You see, mankind are covenant breakers.  God is a covenant keeper.  From the first man, Adam, to the last man there will be we will break God's Law.  God, however, is a covenant keeper.  It is why we need a Savior.  We cannot obey our way into a relationship with God.  It is God who establishes that relationship.  Our obedience is a result of God bringing us back to life, not a means to get something from God.

It isn't works-based at all.  One cannot work their way into the Kingdom -- no one can keep the Torah perfectly.  It is a *heart* issue -- a willingness and desire to obey God.  We obey Him by keeping His commandments.  Those commandments are the commandments of the Torah.

Judaism never taught that one is saved through Torah-obedience.  That is a misunderstanding of Christianity.  On the contrary, the Jews misundestood the Covenant that HaShem made with Abraham.  They believed that salvation was promised to Abraham and his descendants and therefore, one was saved simply by being a born a Jew.  A Gentile, they believed, could become a Jew through the ritual of circumcision.  This is what the controversy was in Acts 15.  Some of the Jews were telling Gentiles that they had to be circumcised in order to be a member of the Covenant Family.

In other words, they believed that one "got into" the Covenant by being born Jewish, and that a Gentile could "get into" the Covenant through circumcision.  One *maintained* their status as a "Jew" through obedience to the Torah.  This is the "works-based" salvation that Paul argued against.  He realized that the covenant was made with Abraham *before* the sign of circumcision was ever given.  He realized that salvation came through *faith* and not through ethnic status.  But "faith" also means "being faithful" -- faithful to the Marriage Covenant, which is the Torah.

One doesn't just utter the words "I accept Yeshua as my Savior."  Obedience to the Torah is the method by which one places their faith in Yeshua.  Yeshua died because of our transgression of the Torah commandments.  He didn't die so that we could turn around and disobey the Torah all over again.

Shimon

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

Reformationist · Nov 21, 2002

Shimon, you should check this link out:

Forum Rule #6

God bless

Shimon · Nov 21, 2002

Reformationist:

Before I ever wrote my first post on this site, I emailed the moderators and asked them what forums a Messianic Jew is allowed to post in. I was informed that I was allowed to post on *all* forums.

I don't think you understand what "Messianic Judaism" is. Messianic Judaism accepts Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah. Messianic Judaism accepts the Apostolic scriptures ("New Testament") as the Inspired Word of God.

Shimon

Reformationist · Nov 21, 2002

Originally posted by Shimon
Reformationist:

Before I ever wrote my first post on this site, I emailed the moderators and asked them what forums a Messianic Jew is allowed to post in. I was informed that I was allowed to post on *all* forums.

I don't think you understand what "Messianic Judaism" is. Messianic Judaism accepts Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah. Messianic Judaism accepts the Apostolic scriptures ("New Testament") as the Inspired Word of God.

Shimon

Obviously I don't.  Sorry about that.  What is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Christian?

Thanks,

God bless

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SALVATION---instant, or process?

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