Salvation in the Old Testament

[zaksmummy]

Yes, I've had questions about this as well. When I was a Christian, we were taught that when we die we go to heaven (unbelievers go to hell). But, we also, somehow, hang around waiting for this great white throne judgement. Apparently we're all judged at this great white throne and then we go back to heaven or hell. Now, one would presume that if they died and entered heaven or hell then they had already been judged. So why the need for the great white throne theatrics? Also, after this throne judgement God apparently remakes heaven and earth. Do we live on this new earth, or stay in heaven as dead people?

I would say that when we die we go to Sheol, the grave. We stay there until the day of judgement. We go through the judging process, then we take our places on the earth, on the new earth which comes down from heaven at the end of the age. Ive recently been challenged on the "all the christians get taken off and the earth is destroyed" idea. My new understanding is that yes we get taken off "caught up with him in the air", the evil ones are removed from earth, and then we come back to an earth as it was in the creation.

 

[razeontherock]

Ive recently been challenged on the "all the christians get taken off and the earth is destroyed" idea. My new understanding is that yes we get taken off "caught up with him in the air", the evil ones are removed from earth, and then we come back to an earth as it was in the creation.

While I like that idea and see it supported in Scripture, I find it is better to be content with the shadow of His wings because we truly do not know how the future unfolds:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:7)

I trust you are familiar with the other passages that speak along these lines. You've heard the song "it is well with my soul?"

 

[golgotha61]

While I haven't read all of the Old Testament, I've read quite a lot of it. In my readings I've noticed that God prefers to offer the obedient "long life". In the Law God frequently states that if people obey the Commandments then they will have long, blessed lives in the promised land. Throughout the works of the Prophets this is a similar trend - obedience will give you long life. What I didn't notice in the OT was a promise of eternal life (nor the threat of eternal damnation). In the Law, people were threatened with death, not hell.

Yet, when we turn to the New Testament, the promise of eternal life is offered to the believer, while an eternity in hell is given to the unbeliever.

I've been trying to understand this discrepancy and I honestly can't come up with any good answers. I know the Old Testament mentions "sheol", which is generally understood to simply mean death. And very little is mentioned of heaven in the Old Testament (some visions by Eziekel and Isaiah are the only stuff I've read).

So why did Jesus start offering people eternal life when, according to the Old Testament, just a long life sufficed? Also, how can we believe hell is a real place when there is no mention of it in the OT?

From what I have studied in the Old Testament I have come away with the realization that God is God of covenants. He re-entered human history after the flood through the Abrahamic covenant in order to restore a relationship with mankind. In this covenant, He promised Abraham posterity, blessings, and land. This land is called the Promised Land and the purpose of this promise was to provide a land for God and His created image to once again enjoy each other’s company like He had with us in Eden.

There were stipulations to this covenant in the form of covenant laws in which Israel was to worship only Jehovah and live holy lives. There is of course much more detail here but basically if Israel were to live according to the way God intended, not only would they live in the new Eden, (the Promised Land) but also would then enjoy heaven after their deaths and conversely if they were “cut off” from their people they would suffer punishment also for eternity. I believe God did not reveal eternity in heaven or hell because His desire here was to encourage Israel to obey Him for this present life in the Promised Land.

Because the Bible is a record of God’s progressive revelation, not all of His plans were made known in the Old Testament and as the Bible continues in its narratives, we see more covenants that finally lead to the new covenant of Christ. In this covenant then we see the final plan and expansion from Israel to all of mankind in this promise. Now we are offered the chance to live with God for eternity in the new earth as described in Revelation along with Israel. So it was not a matter of God giving partial information in the Old Testament as much as it is God revealing Himself in a progressive manner with the finale in Revelation.

 

[razeontherock]

To see continuity between OT and NT, a really simple way is to look for "the river" that starts in Genesis, shows up throughout Scripture, and is again seen in Revelation.

Notice it's characteristics.

Also know that the words we have are not necessarily G-d's intent, but He always has purposes that are deeper, yet alluded to by the words we have on paper.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I would say that when we die we go to Sheol, the grave. We stay there until the day of judgement. We go through the judging process, then we take our places on the earth, on the new earth which comes down from heaven at the end of the age. Ive recently been challenged on the "all the christians get taken off and the earth is destroyed" idea. My new understanding is that yes we get taken off "caught up with him in the air", the evil ones are removed from earth, and then we come back to an earth as it was in the creation.

But didn't Jesus say to the thief on the cross next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise"? Oddly enough, Jesus use of "today" couldn't have been true because Jesus himself (according to Ephesians I think) spent 3 days in hell preaching to the lost before being resurrected. Maybe it's just one of those things that "we'll never really know". There seems to be a lot of that with the Bible though; I hear many opinions but no concrete answers.

I checked out the Rapture stuff for myself - I read loads of books on it (Hal Lindsey, Gary DeMar, Hank something, etc). Again, the Bible seems to be (almost deliberately) obscure. I'm aware that the Rapture theology originated in the US in the mid-nineteenth century (although rapturists will deny this and say that the early church believed and taught an imminent rapture). The doctrine itself doesn't hold up because Jesus himself taught no secret rapture. Jesus, in his Olivet discourses found in the Synoptics, taught a very visible, earth shattering second coming and it's also arguable that he (Jesus) believed his own return would happen during his own disciples' lifetime.

Anyway, I digress. Thanks for the answers though guys. You've given me a lot to think about.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

From what I have studied in the Old Testament I have come away with the realization that God is God of covenants. He re-entered human history after the flood through the Abrahamic covenant in order to restore a relationship with mankind. In this covenant, He promised Abraham posterity, blessings, and land. This land is called the Promised Land and the purpose of this promise was to provide a land for God and His created image to once again enjoy each other’s company like He had with us in Eden.

There were stipulations to this covenant in the form of covenant laws in which Israel was to worship only Jehovah and live holy lives. There is of course much more detail here but basically if Israel were to live according to the way God intended, not only would they live in the new Eden, (the Promised Land) but also would then enjoy heaven after their deaths and conversely if they were “cut off” from their people they would suffer punishment also for eternity. I believe God did not reveal eternity in heaven or hell because His desire here was to encourage Israel to obey Him for this present life in the Promised Land.

Because the Bible is a record of God’s progressive revelation, not all of His plans were made known in the Old Testament and as the Bible continues in its narratives, we see more covenants that finally lead to the new covenant of Christ. In this covenant then we see the final plan and expansion from Israel to all of mankind in this promise. Now we are offered the chance to live with God for eternity in the new earth as described in Revelation along with Israel. So it was not a matter of God giving partial information in the Old Testament as much as it is God revealing Himself in a progressive manner with the finale in Revelation.

Is the Law Covenant still in effect for the Jews? If they don't believe in Jesus can Jews still attain salvation through the law? Not that I'd want to obey the Law. I'm just curious.

 

[meinabox]

Hi GOM...

In my opinion, "eternal hell" is life without God. death. non-existence.

Perhaps a fiery hell is a way of scaring people into obedience...perhaps some people respond to positive reinforcement (eternal, perfect, beautiful, rich, trouble-less life) and others respond to the negative (fiery hell). It's a matter of what interpretation calls to you, really. Either way, life without God, fiery hell or not, is terrifying however it's put...

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Hi GOM...

In my opinion, "eternal hell" is life without God. death. non-existence.

Perhaps a fiery hell is a way of scaring people into obedience...perhaps some people respond to positive reinforcement (eternal, perfect, beautiful, rich, trouble-less life) and others respond to the negative (fiery hell). It's a matter of what interpretation calls to you, really. Either way, life without God, fiery hell or not, is terrifying however it's put...

Non-existence doesn't sound that bad actually. This planet is 4.5 billion years old. I've been "dead" for nearly all that time. Which is why I find it hard to understand how I can suddenly have an immortal soul upon birth.

I think you're right though; hell was invented as a way of scaring people into the church.

 

[meinabox]

church/Christ/obedience/eternal life

there's nothing wrong with fear and infact, wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord, according to Proverbs..

Yea, non-existence doesn't sound bad compared to a fiery hell but I'd rather be happy, safe and loved for the rest of my life...non-stop sun, sandy beaches...no crime or hate... (so many interpretations...) than any of the former... no worries is where its at.

Who knows for sure, though...

 

[meinabox]

Also, you find it hard but finding means searching and Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you (matthew 7:7).

 

[meinabox]

so congratulations. essentially, if you're seeking, you have already found it since scripture states you WILL find, not "may" find.

weee!!

 

[GrayAngel]

But didn't Jesus say to the thief on the cross next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise"? Oddly enough, Jesus use of "today" couldn't have been true because Jesus himself (according to Ephesians I think) spent 3 days in hell preaching to the lost before being resurrected. Maybe it's just one of those things that "we'll never really know". There seems to be a lot of that with the Bible though; I hear many opinions but no concrete answers.

I don't believe the Bible says anything about Jesus preaching in Hell. People who are in Hell cannot escape from it, so there wouldn't be any point in that. My understanding is that Jesus spent those days in Hell to show His authority over it.

and it's also arguable that he (Jesus) believed his own return would happen during his own disciples' lifetime.

Many things are arguable, but I believe in the infallacy of the Bible and that Jesus was God Himself, and that He couldn't have been mistaken.

Some believe that Jesus was speaking of the coming of the Kingdom as not the rapture or the end of the world, but as the kingdom of God on Earth and in His people (ie the church).

Who Didn't Taste Death?

However, you are right that Jesus Himself did not know when His second coming would be, which is why anyone who claims that they've found some hidden code in the Bible, or that they've seen a vision that the end is coming on a certain day, should be immediately ignored.

 

[golgotha61]

Is the Law Covenant still in effect for the Jews? If they don't believe in Jesus can Jews still attain salvation through the law? Not that I'd want to obey the Law. I'm just curious.

The covenant laws of ritual and temple worship are no longer in effect since the temple no longer exists and the ineffectual animal sacrifices have been replaced by the effectual sacrifice of Christ. So, no the laws of animal sacrifice as given in the Pentateuch are no longer effectual for any one, Jew or Gentile. The book of Hebrews is pretty clear on this point.