Salvation = God's Blood

[BNR32FAN]

That passage tells us that Israel had another year, after the cross, to accept or to reject Christ as their messiah

There is no indication that this message is exclusively for Jews. If what your saying is true then no more Jews could come to Christ after next year? There are countless Jews who came to Christ in the last 2000 years. No the message is that God is kind and patient towards us but if we persistently choose not to repent after receiving grace then He will eventually give us over to a depraved mind.

 

[Guojing]

There is no indication that this message is exclusively for Jews. If what your saying is true then no more Jews could come to Christ after next year? There are countless Jews who came to Christ in the last 2000 years. No the message is that God is kind and patient towards us but if we persistently choose not to repent after receiving grace then He will eventually give us over to a depraved mind.

First, you have to accept that Jesus first coming was only for Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8)

The gospel of the kingdom was only meant for Israel (Matthew 10:5).

Once you realized that, then second, you must be aware that Fig tree, vineyard and olive are always symbols in scripture referring to Israel and the Jews.

Some examples from the OT show that The fig tree is symbolic of Israel itself – It often symbolized the health of the nation both spiritually and physically. Hosea 9:10 says,

“When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your ancestors, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.”

Later, the Bible tells us of the glorious time when

“Judah and Israel lived in safety, every man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.” (1 Kings 4:25)

The fig tree is a picture of Israel. In Jeremiah 24, we read about the prophet’s vision of two baskets of figs. Every person in Israel was symbolized by those figs. This means that the whole nation is one or several fig trees from which come the figs, the individual Israelites.

Elsewhere in the OT, when God was displeased with His people because of their unfaithfulness, He would make it known by referring to the lack of fruit on a fig tree. We have an example of this in Jeremiah 8:13. "I will surely consume them," says the Lord. "No grapes shall be on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things I have given them shall pass away from them."

Here again, Israel as a nation is symbolized by a fig tree.

Once you are able to accept my above 2 points, then it will be easier for you to understand my conclusion, that the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 can only refer to Israel and Jews.

To address your final point, after Israel the nation has fallen in the eyes of God, as stated in Romans 11:11, everyone, Jew and gentile, are considered uncircumcised in the eyes of God and can now enter the Body of Christ thru Paul's gospel of grace.

That is where Jews for the last 2000 years, as you have stated, have been entering the Body of Christ, with us gentiles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Once you realized that, then second, you must be aware that Fig tree, vineyard and olive are always symbols in scripture referring to Israel and the Jews.

I disagree, I believe the fig tree, olive tree, and vineyard references are referring to those who are in God’s covenant. Take Romans 11 for example.

“If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Gentiles here did not become Israelites they were grafted into God’s covenant with the Jews. Furthermore some of the Jews are cut off from the olive tree, they didn’t cease to be Israelites, they were cut off from God’s covenant because they refuse to believe in Christ.

“do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:18-24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Even the Gentiles who have been grafted into God’s covenant can be cut off again and the Jews can be grafted in again. They are not going in & out of being Israelites they’re going in & out of God’s covenant. The term Israel is simply used as an example of people within God’s covenant. In the OT God’s covenant was primarily with the Jews but not exclusively to the Jews. Two examples would be Rahab and Ruth who were both Gentile women but had still found favor with God. To my knowledge the scriptures do not directly state that they were grafted into God’s covenant but from what the scriptures do say about their relationship with God I think it’s safe to say that they were in fact grafted in. So I don’t believe that this message in Luke 13:6-9 was exclusively for the Jews because God has the same expectations of all man, both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree, I believe the fig tree, olive tree, and vineyard references are referring to those who are in God’s covenant. Take Romans 11 for example.

“If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Gentiles here did not become Israelites they were grafted into God’s covenant with the Jews. Furthermore some of the Jews are cut off from the olive tree, they didn’t cease to be Israelites, they were cut off from God’s covenant because they refuse to believe in Christ.

“do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:18-24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Even the Gentiles who have been grafted into God’s covenant can be cut off again and the Jews can be grafted in again. They are not going in & out of being Israelites they’re going in & out of God’s covenant. The term Israel is simply used as an example of people within God’s covenant. In the OT God’s covenant was primarily with the Jews but not exclusively to the Jews. Two examples would be Rahab and Ruth who were both Gentile women but had still found favor with God. To my knowledge the scriptures do not directly state that they were grafted into God’s covenant but from what the scriptures do say about their relationship with God I think it’s safe to say that they were in fact grafted in. So I don’t believe that this message in Luke 13:6-9 was exclusively for the Jews because God has the same expectations of all man, both Jew and Gentile.

You are anticipating revelation, instead of recognizing, as Sidon stated, that revelation is progressive.

When Jesus was speaking in the 4 gospels, it was in time past, where as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:11-12, we gentiles were without Christ and without hope.

So you cannot use what Paul wrote in his letters, Romans to Philemon, and force fit them into what Jesus said in Luke 13:6-9.

In time past, gentiles had to become Jews (Esther 8:17), in order to be included in the covenant that God made with Israel, so Rahab and Ruth had to do that.

But now, we are saved thru the fall of Israel, as Paul explained in Romans 11:11.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are anticipating revelation, instead of recognizing, as Sidon stated, that revelation is progressive.

When Jesus was speaking in the 4 gospels, it was in time past, where as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:11-12, we gentiles were without Christ and without hope.

So you cannot use what Paul wrote in his letters, Romans to Philemon, and force fit them into what Jesus said in Luke 13:6-9.

In time past, gentiles had to become Jews (Esther 8:17), in order to be included in the covenant that God made with Israel, so Rahab and Ruth had to do that.

But now, we are saved thru the fall of Israel, as Paul explained in Romans 11:11.

There’s no mention that Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be included into God’s covenant. Your taking verses about particular people and applying them as if it pertains to all Gentiles. Esther 8:17 doesn’t say that Gentiles must become Jews to enter into God’s covenant. It says that many of the people in King Ahasuerus’ kingdom became Jews because they feared the Jews. You can’t take that verse and apply it to all Gentiles everywhere as if it were mandatory for salvation because it doesn’t say that they had to become Jews to enter into God’s covenant or to receive salvation. It simply says that many of the people became Jews because they feared them. There’s nothing in the entire chapter about them being saved or entering into God’s covenant. There’s no indication that the Ninevites became Jews or adopted the Mosaic law and yet Christ said that the Ninevites will be the ones to condemn the Pharisees on judgement day in Matthew 12:41. The Pharisees who were Jews and all about the Mosaic law will be condemned by the Ninevite Gentiles. About your statement concerning Ephesians 2:11-12, no one ever had any hope of salvation without Christ. The Jews did not receive salvation without Christ’s atonement. That’s why they waited in Sheol until Christ’s sacrifice because they could not enter Heaven until they received Christ’s atonement. Nothing impure can enter Heaven. The whole point of Christ’s sacrifice was to save everyone because no one was able to be saved by obedience to the law. So the Jews did not have salvation before Christ’s atonement any more than the Gentiles did and Gentiles becoming a Jew still didn’t save them. Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles who converted to Jews knew this because it had not yet been revealed. Everyone in Abraham’s bosom was included or grafted into God’s covenant. So none of your points indicate that Luke 13:6-9 was exclusively directed towards the Jews.

 

[Guojing]

.

 

[Guojing]

There’s no mention that Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be included into God’s covenant. Your taking verses about particular people and applying them as if it pertains to all Gentiles. Esther 8:17 doesn’t say that Gentiles must become Jews to enter into God’s covenant. It says that many of the people in King Ahasuerus’ kingdom became Jews because they feared the Jews. You can’t take that verse and apply it to all Gentiles everywhere as if it were mandatory for salvation because it doesn’t say that they had to become Jews to enter into God’s covenant or to receive salvation. It simply says that many of the people became Jews because they feared them. There’s nothing in the entire chapter about them being saved or entering into God’s covenant. There’s no indication that the Ninevites became Jews or adopted the Mosaic law and yet Christ said that the Ninevites will be the ones to condemn the Pharisees on judgement day in Matthew 12:41. The Pharisees who were Jews and all about the Mosaic law will be condemned by the Ninevite Gentiles. About your statement concerning Ephesians 2:11-12, no one ever had any hope of salvation without Christ. The Jews did not receive salvation without Christ’s atonement. That’s why they waited in Sheol until Christ’s sacrifice because they could not enter Heaven until they received Christ’s atonement. Nothing impure can enter Heaven. The whole point of Christ’s sacrifice was to save everyone because no one was able to be saved by obedience to the law. So the Jews did not have salvation before Christ’s atonement any more than the Gentiles did and Gentiles becoming a Jew still didn’t save them. Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles who converted to Jews knew this because it had not yet been revealed. Everyone in Abraham’s bosom was included or grafted into God’s covenant. So none of your points indicate that Luke 13:6-9 was exclusively directed towards the Jews.

Alright, I provided the scriptural reference and explained them to you, but I cannot understand them for you.

Let's move on then.

 

[Sidon]

Are you saying that we don’t have to abide in Christ in order to be saved?.

Not at all.
Im saying that the reason you abide in Christ is because a person has been born again as "One with God, In Christ".
So, GOD has put you in Christ, Spiritually, if you are born again, and not just water baptized.

And that is where the born again literally exist, as "translated from darkness TO Light".
See, being "in Christ" proves you are abiding there.....its where you exist.
This is why all the born again are.. :

"As CHRIST IS......so are the born again, IN THIS WORLD".

And...

The born again are "SEATED in Heavenly Places, IN CHRIST".


So, That is the born again "abiding".
There is no other way to abide in Christ, then to be IN CHRIST by being born again into God Himself.

The reason that "Christ IN YOU is the hope of Glory" is because, you are also "IN Christ".

Wherever Christ is found, so are all the born again.
We never leave Him, and He never leaves us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Alright, I provided the scriptural reference and explained them to you, but I cannot understand them for you.

Let's move on then.

I have a quick question, was counted justified before or after being converted to a Jew?

 

[Guojing]

I have a quick question, was counted justified before or after being converted to a Jew?

Are you referring to gentiles in time past?

If you are, a gentile must first convert to a Jew in order to be included in the covenant God made with Israel. (Ephesians 2:11-12)

Once you are a Jew, and for all Jews in time past, salvation is received only at the times of refreshing, which refers to when the nation is finally at rest, that happens when Jesus returns in his 2nd coming for the nation Israel to execute the New Covenant with the entire nation.

Scripture references for this includes Acts 3:19-21, Hebrews 8:8-12, Romans 11:27, 1 Peter 1:9 etc.

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ in the but now time period, we are saved/justified the moment we believe in the cross (Ephesians 1:7, 13)