Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

Whether salvation is lost or not doesn't seem worth arguing about.

Well, you're not alone. There are many believers who aren't interested in the truth of Scripture. Just "not worth it" to them.

Sounds like a bad idea to live as if it could not be lost anyways. And not just a bad idea for myself. A bad idea for society in general if we all lived that way.

Eternal security doesn't address one's lifestyle. That is inserted as an "add-on".

Eternal security is a FACT, as Jesus stated in John 10:28. However, there are many verses about God's painful discipline for disobedient and unfaithful believers.

That's essentially Aleister Crowley's Luciferianism by another name: "Do what thou wilt." The end result of people living these worry free lives would create hell on earth.

The biblical teaching of eternal security wasn't meant for a "worry free life". It is simply the truth; that those God saves (through faith) shall never perish.

However, the Bible is crystal clear that there will be blessings and eternal reward for obedience and discipline and loss of eternal reward for rebellion.

And lets assume that I still gained eternal life. Even so, I would lose my soul in this life anyways.

The verse you are quoting is about your physical life. The Greek word translated 'soul' meant one's life. So, to lose one's soul meant to lose one's life. That would be physical to a 1st Century Jew/Gentile.

What's the point of that?

Here's the point. Do you want to live immorally and suffer physically for it? And even die because of it? 1 Cor 11:30.

If I lived a sexually immoral life, I'd still hurt others, stop believing in love (thereby rotting my own soul with cynicism), and might even catch a disease (or two.. or three). And so on and so forth. Name any sin and there's always temporal consequences.

And eternal security doesn't deny any of this. Or negate it.

You don't have to just think of eternal consequences. The wages of sin is death - even in this life. Death of the mind, death of society, and just plain death.

Of course. But none of this dismisses eternal security.

And eternal security doesn't "legalize" sin, as most of the Arminians will argue.

No, I should "discipline myself" like an athlete, as Paul says, and fight the good fight.

Absolutely!

 

[straykat]

Well, you're not alone. There are many believers who aren't interested in the truth of Scripture. Just "not worth it" to them.

I didn't say I wasn't interested in the truth of scripture. I said that this in particular wasn't worth arguing about. Grant a me and your brothers a small courtesy and not project one of the worst things imaginable on to us ("not interested in the truth of scripture"), just because we don't want to argue.

Besides, if it was so obviously true, then the Church would have settled on it definitively early on. But it didn't. These doctrines didn't take root until Luther. That's an exceptionally long time for something that was apparently the "truth" all along. Millions upon millions of Christians apparently lost in darkness, because they didn't get this right. What a cynical and bleak outlook on God's household (of course, Protestants would say that that's because they were never God's household either... which is another layer of cynicism and bleakness.. on top of an already cynical and bleak outlook). But I digress.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say I wasn't interested in the truth of scripture. I said that this in particular wasn't worth arguing about. Grant a me and your brothers a small courtesy and not project one of the worst things imaginable on to us ("not interested in the truth of scripture"), just because we don't want to argue.

Since eternal security is plainly stated in Scripture, belief opposite of it is unbiblical, and should be of concern to every believer.

Besides, if it was so obviously true, then the Church would have settled on it definitively early on. But it didn't.

Hold on a sec. Haven't you read any of the defenses by Arminians? They cannot provide ANY verse that plainly states that salvation can be lost.

What they do provide are verses that require lots of assumption about what the words mean. iow, no clear and plain wording.

otoh, eternal security is plainly stated. But even then, Arminians tear the verse completely out of its clear statement into the total opposite of what was said.

These doctrines didn't take root until Luther.

Nonsense. The Scripture itself states in plain words that the believer is eternally secure.

That's an exceptionally long time for something that was apparently the "truth" all along. Millions upon millions of Christians apparently lost in darkness, because they didn't get this right.

They problem is with them.

What I've found in nearly 2 decades of discussion/debate is that those who believe that salvation can be lost have a very dim (narrow) view of God's grace. Basically, they just can't stand the thought that one of God's children, who lived rebelliously, could actually get to enter heaven. iow, that is just another way of believing that they didn't "earn" the right to enter heaven.

Yet, no one enters heaven on the basis of merit. No one earns entrance into the kingdom.

Grace means salvation based on what Christ did for the believer. The believer's trust in Christ's work isn't "earning" something, either.

What a cynical and bleak outlook on God's household (of course, Protestants would say that that's because they were never God's household either... which is another layer of cynicism and bleakness.. on top of an already cynical and bleak outlook). But I digress.

More than digress, you totally lost me on this sentence.

I see nothing bleak about eternal security.

I do see lots and lots of bleakness about losing salvation.

 

[Phil W]

Still NOT reading the verse correctly. No, v.27 isn't a statement of fact, but a description of what they DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

And if they do what they aught not do? If they are not following Christ the Shepherd?
Factually, they don't receive eternal life.

And v.28 is about the sheep, and NOT at all about what they do in order to never perish, which seems to be your "twist" on the verse.

About HIS sheep...the ones that follow Him.
You are mistakenly granting eternal life to the sheep that DON'T follow Jesus the good shepherd.

Can you back that claim up with any verse? Of course you can't, and you know it.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
You are assigning eternal life to sheep who neither follow nor know Him.

The Bible in very plain words teaches that believers WILL struggle with sin. But you deny what the Bible teaches.

Believers will be tempted, but we have gracefully been provided all the exhortations, warnings, and admonitions necessary to prevent sin.
Not to mention the seed from which we have been reborn that cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Thanks and praise be to God.
Only Gods sheep "hear Him".

 

[FreeGrace2]

And if they do what they aught not do? If they are not following Christ the Shepherd?
Factually, they don't receive eternal life.

Factually, you don't have the facts. Eternal life is NOT received on the basis of ANY works of the person. None. It's on the basis of faith in Christ.

That means trust in what Christ DID for them. So it's not what they do for Him.

About HIS sheep...the ones that follow Him.

You just love trying to make "following Him" the basis for being His sheep, don'tcha.

You are mistakenly granting eternal life to the sheep that DON'T follow Jesus the good shepherd.

You are the mistaken one. Eternal life is granted to believers. Don't you understand that WHEN a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, they ARE following Him?

Of course they are. But, like every other literal and DUMB sheep, many get lost and need to be returned to the fold. That doesn't mean loss of salvation. It is comparable to loss of fellowship with the shepherd.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
You are assigning eternal life to sheep who neither follow nor know Him.

Wrong again. I am not assigning anything to anyone. That belongs to the Lord Jesus Himself.

And this is what He says about who POSSESSES eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (POSSESSES) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Where do you see "follow" anywhere in this verse?

Believers will be tempted, but we have gracefully been provided all the exhortations, warnings, and admonitions necessary to prevent sin.

And we STILL have the opportunity to sin. But in your confused theology, you admit the possibility of sin while at the same time denying the ability to sin.

Not to mention the seed from which we have been reborn that cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

You are referring to the new born again nature, which you don't even understand.

Thanks and praise be to God.
Only Gods sheep "hear Him".

Sure. For salvation. That's how they come to be His sheep.

Rom 10 -
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

One must hear the gospel before they can believe it.

How come you consistently ignore or dismiss the criteria of believing for salvation, and put it in terms of actions rather than trusting?

That's where you've gone WAY WRONG. Derailed. Off the track. Over the cliff.

 

[Phil W]

Factually, you don't have the facts. Eternal life is NOT received on the basis of ANY works of the person. None. It's on the basis of faith in Christ.

Guess what...Having faith is work done by us.
So is believing.

You just love trying to make "following Him" the basis for being His sheep, don'tcha.

It is what Jesus said.

You are the mistaken one. Eternal life is granted to believers. Don't you understand that WHEN a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, they ARE following Him?

Doesn't that exclude the sheep who don't 'follow Him'?

Of course they are. But, like every other literal and DUMB sheep, many get lost and need to be returned to the fold. That doesn't mean loss of salvation. It is comparable to loss of fellowship with the shepherd.

I am sure glad that my Shepherd supplies me with everything I need to remain faithfully obedient to Him.

And this is what He says about who POSSESSES eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (POSSESSES) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Where do you see "follow" anywhere in this verse?

Believer...follower.
Those not following their Shepherd don't believe Him.
He said the truth could free us from committing sin in John 8:32-34, and I believe Him.

And we STILL have the opportunity to sin. But in your confused theology, you admit the possibility of sin while at the same time denying the ability to sin.

If I wanted to quit saying I believe Jesus or that I follow Him, I can restart my life of sin.
But because I have been reborn of His seed I can't say such things.

How come you consistently ignore or dismiss the criteria of believing for salvation, and put it in terms of actions rather than trusting?

Trusting, believing, and following are ALL actions.
Faith without showing proof of faith is empty babbling.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Factually, you don't have the facts. Eternal life is NOT received on the basis of ANY works of the person. None. It's on the basis of faith in Christ."

Guess what...Having faith is work done by us.
So is believing.

You have just demonstrated how much you do not understand the Bible.

I cited 2 passages. Apparently you didn't bother to read either of them, or you did, but both went over your head.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is through faith, not by works. These 2 verses alone PROVE that believing is NOT a work.

Grace REMOVES human effort (works) from salvation. But you have shown repeatedly that you don't understand any of this.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Works create an obligation. But trust (faith) does NOT.

This passage shows that trusting in the work of Jesus isn't a work, or obligates God.

In fact, God already obligated Himself by His plan on saving man. It was God's idea, not man's, to save those who believe. In fact, God's plan pleases Him very much.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I said:
"You just love trying to make "following Him" the basis for being His sheep, don'tcha."

It is what Jesus said.

I DARE you to provide even 1 verse that quotes Jesus telling anyone that salvation is by following Him.

I said:
"Eternal life is granted to believers. Don't you understand that WHEN a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, they ARE following Him?"

Doesn't that exclude the sheep who don't 'follow Him'?

If you had understood my clear words, you wouldn't have had to ask this ridiculous question. Placing faith in Christ IS following Him at that moment. They are following His promise of salvation by putting their trust in Him.

The issue of sheep that don't follow Him isn't relevant at the moment of saving faith in Him. The issue of following is what occurs AFTER believing in Him. It's a matter of obeying the commands given to His sheep. But NONE of the commands TO His sheep are for salvation. Why? Because His sheep are already saved. By definition.

So, basically, we are talking about FUTURE actions of His sheep.

Guess what. The future is addressed in Scripture.

Rom 8:38,39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul was convinced that there is NOTHING that may occur in the future that can change God's love for His children.

I am sure glad that my Shepherd supplies me with everything I need to remain faithfully obedient to Him.

He supplies everything needed for "life and godliness" to every believer. 2 Pet 1:3.

But that doesn't mean every believer utilizes what He provides. That's just your fantasy.

I said:
"And this is what He says about who POSSESSES eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (POSSESSES) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Where do you see "follow" anywhere in this verse?"

Believer...follower.
Those not following their Shepherd don't believe Him.

This seems to deny John 5:24. Are you really that bold?

He said the truth could free us from committing sin in John 8:32-34, and I believe Him.

Let's look at these verses. I don't believe you.

32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

The sad thing is v.32 belongs to a different group than the "they" of v.33. v.32 belongs to v.30,31-
30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

So, it's to those who believed in Him who are addressed in v.32.

However, the "they" of v.33 returns to the larger group He had been talking to way back in v.13 - 13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

Jesus' response to these Pharisees, who were against Him. Unbelievers.
14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.
15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.
18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?” “You do not know me or my Father,”Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

From this point on, "they" refers to these Pharisees who challenged Jesus in v.13.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.” Again, the unbelieving Pharisees.

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
25“Who are you?” they asked. “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied.
26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

All the "you" references are the unbelieving Pharisees. And again we see several "they" references, to the same people.

28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Here, Jesus clearly identifies the unbelieving Pharisees as the ones who would put Him on a cross.

This is all context for v.30-32, where Jesus speaks specifically to those who HAD believed in Him while He was talking to the Pharisees.

So, v.33 is a continuation of Jesus' discussion with unbelieving Pharisees.

We know that because of the culmination of what He said to these unbelieving Pharisees:

33 They (unbelieving Pharisees) answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.
40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
41 You are doing the works of your own father.” “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

There is the bulk of the passage. It is clear that v.32 was spoken to those who DID believe in Him, as John recorded twice. Everything else in the passage was said to unbelieving Pharisees. And Jesus clearly makes clear that they DIDN'T believe Him.

So, if you want to include v.32 as to unbelievers, then you have to decide who was wrong, or lying; John or Jesus. You've got a real problem.

If I wanted to quit saying I believe Jesus or that I follow Him, I can restart my life of sin.

Don't kid yourself. Even Paul struggled with his own sin nature. You're not better than Paul.

But because I have been reborn of His seed I can't say such things.

Don't you see the contradiction in what you're saying??

If reborn, how can you UN-born yourself? Or lose your "new seed"? Just by saying you "quit believing in Jesus"? Is that the magical formula for sinning? That's just delusional.

And, of course, there is NO Scripture that supports this delusion.

Trusting, believing, and following are ALL actions.

So what? I've already proven from Scripture that trusting, believing is non-meritorious. It's not a work.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Factually, you don't have the facts. Eternal life is NOT received on the basis of ANY works of the person. None. It's on the basis of faith in Christ."
You have just demonstrated how much you do not understand the Bible.
I cited 2 passages. Apparently you didn't bother to read either of them, or you did, but both went over your head.
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation is through faith, not by works. These 2 verses alone PROVE that believing is NOT a work.

The "works" Paul was nullifying were the works of the Law: not having faith, believing, baptism, or obedience.

Grace REMOVES human effort (works) from salvation. But you have shown repeatedly that you don't understand any of this.

Thank God for the end of the works "of the Law to be saved".

I DARE you to provide even 1 verse that quotes Jesus telling anyone that salvation is by following Him.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
Those not following Him get nothing.

I said:
"Eternal life is granted to believers. Don't you understand that WHEN a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, they ARE following Him?"

Why are you arguing against it then?

Guess what. The future is addressed in Scripture.
Rom 8:38,39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank God for the promises to those who follow the good Shepherd!

32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Thanks be to God for freedom from sinning!

The sad thing is v.32 belongs to a different group than the "they" of v.33. v.32 belongs to v.30,31-
30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

Isn't "holding to His teachings" work?
Thank God for the understanding that the "forbidden works" are the customs of the Jews...circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, tithing, feast keeping etc.

There is the bulk of the passage. It is clear that v.32 was spoken to those who DID believe in Him, as John recorded twice. Everything else in the passage was said to unbelieving Pharisees. And Jesus clearly makes clear that they DIDN'T believe Him.

The unbelieving will never be free from committing sin.

So, if you want to include v.32 as to unbelievers, then you have to decide who was wrong, or lying; John or Jesus. You've got a real problem.

Are not all the verses of the bible to both believing and unbelieving folks?
In fact I think v. 32 is especially able to separate the believer from the unbelievers.
How? By their acceptance or refusal to obey it.

Don't kid yourself. Even Paul struggled with his own sin nature. You're not better than Paul.

Scripture refutes your POV.

If reborn, how can you UN-born yourself? Or lose your "new seed"? Just by saying you "quit believing in Jesus"? Is that the magical formula for sinning? That's just delusional.

Sin is the evidence of the seed of God NOT being in someone. (1 John 3:9)
They may have been able to portray themselves as righteous for a time, but the truth always ends up showing who is the actual father of a man.

So what? I've already proven from Scripture that trusting, believing is non-meritorious. It's not a work.

What happens if you don't believe?
Believing isn't a work of the Mosaic Law, but it is an action that will determine our eternal future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What happens if you don't believe?

You don't get the gift of eternal life. What did you think? Quite an odd question from someone claiming to be a Christian.

Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?

Believing isn't a work of the Mosaic Law, but it is an action that will determine our eternal future.

So? What's your point? And how does this fact support anything you claim?

 

[Phil W]

You don't get the gift of eternal life. What did you think? Quite an odd question from someone claiming to be a Christian.
Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?

The obedient receive it at rebirth, when their new, eternal life begins; and the disobedient never receive it.
Unbelief is manifested as sin.

So? What's your point? And how does this fact support anything you claim?

You eschew "works", apparently not recognizing that the works Paul wrote of were the works of the Mosaic Law...Circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, etc.
Believing, having faith, confession, repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and complete obedience to God are not works to be eschewed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?"

The obedient receive it at rebirth, when their new, eternal life begins; and the disobedient never receive it.
Unbelief is manifested as sin.

This is really twisted. Putting your trust in Christ for what He did for you isn't about obedience/disobedience. It appears you don't understand what trust means.

And whoever puts their trust (faith) in Christ RECEIVE the gift of eternal life. I have already given you many verses that say so, and did you notice that NONE of the verses mentioned obedience?

You eschew "works", apparently not recognizing that the works Paul wrote of were the works of the Mosaic Law...Circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, etc.

What I eschew is any insinuation or outright claim that salvation requires any kind of "works".

Believing, having faith, confession, repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and complete obedience to God are not works to be eschewed.

Only the first 2 items on your list are required for salvation.

None of the rest will save you or anyone else. They are human efforts. They are works.

Again, I've given you a long list of verses that state in plain words how to have eternal life, and NONE of them include anything from your list except the first 2 items.

So, once again, you have demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge about what the Bible says.

 

[Phil W]

I asked:
"Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?"
This is really twisted. Putting your trust in Christ for what He did for you isn't about obedience/disobedience. It appears you don't understand what trust means.
And whoever puts their trust (faith) in Christ RECEIVE the gift of eternal life. I have already given you many verses that say so, and did you notice that NONE of the verses mentioned obedience?

That is like saying..."Here is the car key, so now you know how to drive."
You are a celebrator of disobedience.

What I eschew is any insinuation or outright claim that salvation requires any kind of "works".

Don't you mean any "works" except "having faith" and "believing"?

Only the first 2 items on your list are required for salvation.
None of the rest will save you or anyone else. They are human efforts. They are works.

So are the first two.
No single item of those listed will cause salvation. They must all be adhered to.

So, once again, you have demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge about what the Bible says.

Sorry to see you ignore..."For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more,being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10)
And..."For we are saved by hope: " (Rom 8:24)
And..."Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved," (1 Cor 15:1-2)
And..." (by grace ye are saved," (Eph 2:5)
And..."For by grace are ye saved through faith;" (Eph 2:8)
And..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
And..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
And..."and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21)
We are saved by...His life, Hope, the Gospel, Grace, Faith, the engrafted word, and not to be forgotten, Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
That is "my" scriptural knowledge that you seem to have forgotten.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I asked:
"Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?"
This is really twisted. Putting your trust in Christ for what He did for you isn't about obedience/disobedience. It appears you don't understand what trust means."

That is like saying..."Here is the car key, so now you know how to drive."

What kind of answer is this?? Don't you know?? Why did you play dodge ball?

And, btw, what I said is NOTHING like what you posted. In fact, your comment has no relevance to what I posted.

You are a celebrator of disobedience.

You are deluded. Severely.

I said:
"What I eschew is any insinuation or outright claim that salvation requires any kind of "works"."

Don't you mean any "works" except "having faith" and "believing"?

The Bible NEVER refers to believing as a work.

Of course believing in Christ for salvation is the requirement for eternal life.

No single item of those listed will cause salvation. They must all be adhered to.

I challenge you to provide at least 1 verse to back up each item on your list.

Because I don't believe you.

Sorry to see you ignore..."For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more,being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10)
And..."For we are saved by hope: " (Rom 8:24)
And..."Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved," (1 Cor 15:1-2)
And..." (by grace ye are saved," (Eph 2:5)
And..."For by grace are ye saved through faith;" (Eph 2:8)
And..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
And..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
And..."and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21)
We are saved by...His life, Hope, the Gospel, Grace, Faith, the engrafted word, and not to be forgotten Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
That is "my" scriptural knowledge that you seem to have forgotten.

[/QUOTE]
How in the world would anyone come to the conclusion that I have ignored any of these verses?

Re: Rom 8:24, please explain what you think "hope" means.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"I asked:
"Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?"
This is really twisted. Putting your trust in Christ for what He did for you isn't about obedience/disobedience. It appears you don't understand what trust means."

I answered it in post # 1010.

"What I eschew is any insinuation or outright claim that salvation requires any kind of "works".

You are correct...if the works you mention are those of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision and dietary laws are not necessary for salvation.

The Bible NEVER refers to believing as a work.

Neither are repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or obedience to God for the rest of your time on earth.

Of course believing in Christ for salvation is the requirement for eternal life.

I'm glad you backed away from the No Works" camp, as it is impossible to fulfill.
Every "deed" could be considered as a work.

I said:
"I asked:
"Are you aware of WHEN a believer receives the gift?"
This is really twisted. Putting your trust in Christ for what He did for you isn't about obedience/disobedience. It appears you don't understand what trust means."

I trust what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.
I trust what Peter said to the visiting Jews in Acts 2:38.
I trust what Philip said to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:36-38.
I trust what Paul said and did for the twelve at Ephesus, in Acts 19:2-6.
There is a necessity for baptism, repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, baptism, and baptism.
Why don't you trust Jesus, Peter, and Paul?

Re: Rom 8:24, please explain what you think "hope" means.

As a verb..."To want something to happen or be true."..as per Merriam Webster.
As a noun..."Confidence in a promised result."
Personally, I have hope that Jesus' words in John 8:32, 34 are true..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
I hope His truth can keep me free from sinning.
I have confidence they are true.
So far so good!
Thanks be to God almighty for the words of His son.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Bible NEVER refers to believing as a work."

Neither are repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or obedience to God for the rest of your time on earth.

And these don't save anyone either. The ONLY THING that saves, and that by God Himself, if faith in Jesus Christ for what He did for YOU on the cross and what He gives YOU for believing in Him.

I'm glad you backed away from the No Works" camp, as it is impossible to fulfill.
Every "deed" could be considered as a work.

I trust what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

Are you aware that v.9-20 don't occur in the earliest manuscripts? Probably not.

However, even if it did, I have no doubt that 'baptism' in v.16 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

I trust what Peter said to the visiting Jews in Acts 2:38.
I trust what Philip said to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:36-38.
I trust what Paul said and did for the twelve at Ephesus, in Acts 19:2-6.
There is a necessity for baptism, repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, baptism, and baptism.
Why don't you trust Jesus, Peter, and Paul?

I trust what they said, and understand what was meant. Unlike yourself.

Speaking of Peter, he even made it very clear that water baptism doesn't save. It's a picture of salvation. Not salvation itself. 1 Pet 3:21, which we've been through, and you have chosen to reject.

As a verb..."To want something to happen or be true."..as per Merriam Webster.
As a noun..."Confidence in a promised result."
Personally, I have hope that Jesus' words in John 8:32, 34 are true..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Your error here is to think of the biblial word 'hope' the way we use the word today, as you indicated by quoting M-W.

However, the Greek word means differently. It means a 'confident expectation'. Another way to say it is faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phil,

Your view that the Holy Spirit is given at water baptism which saves the soul is refuted by Scripture.

Acts 1-
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

This was said after His resurrection.

However, notice what Jesus said to His disciples during the Last Supper in John 13-

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

The red words state the fact that His disciples at the Last Supper were SAVED, and the blue words indicate not everyone was saved.

The blue words clearly state that Judas was NOT SAVED.

So, the 11 saved disciples were saved BEFORE Acts 1:5 occurred.

This alone proves that salvation is not based on water baptism.

In addition, the residents of Samaria believed the gospel and were water baptized per Acts 8:12. Yet, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter and John came and laid hands on them.

Were hands laid on you before you received the Holy Spirit?

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"The Bible NEVER refers to believing as a work."

It never refers to repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or obedience till the end as "works" either.
But they are all things that must happen.

And these don't save anyone either. The ONLY THING that saves, and that by God Himself, if faith in Jesus Christ for what He did for YOU on the cross and what He gives YOU for believing in Him.

How does your religion say folks get "in" Christ?
You keep mentioning believing "in Christ" and faith "in Christ", so how do we get "in" Christ?

 

[Phil W]

Phil,
Your view that the Holy Spirit is given at water baptism which saves the soul is refuted by Scripture.

You are thinking of someone else, as I don't believe that.
Peter did say "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." in Acts 2:38; but receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is also dependent on a turn from sin. Repentance.

Acts 1-
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
This was said after His resurrection.

Agreed, and it was manifested to have happened by the flames of fire and the speaking in tongues.

However, notice what Jesus said to His disciples during the Last Supper in John 13-
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
The red words state the fact that His disciples at the Last Supper were SAVED, and the blue words indicate not everyone was saved.

Jesus did the same thing to all the disciples, so why weren't they ALL, as you say, "saved"?

The blue words clearly state that Judas was NOT SAVED.

I guess then that the "procedure" had nothing to do with salvation

So, the 11 saved disciples were saved BEFORE Acts 1:5 occurred.
This alone proves that salvation is not based on water baptism.

That in itself shows they were NOT saved yet.
By the way, you are now including washing of feet as a necessity for salvation...but not remission of past sins, repentance, or rebirth.
Puzzling...

In addition, the residents of Samaria believed the gospel and were water baptized per Acts 8:12. Yet, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter and John came and laid hands on them.

Now it is the reception of the Holy Ghost that is necessary for salvation?
Keep on going and we will eventually meet together.
Just repentance from dead works and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, to go till we are in total agreement.
BTW, if baptism is unnecessary, why were the Samaritans baptized?

Were hands laid on you before you received the Holy Spirit?

No, as I wasn't a "demonstration point" for the church.
They weren't laid on Cornelius either.

You've mentioned laying on of hands, so you must be familiar with Heb 6:1-2..."Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit."
Why do you keep dismissing the "principles of the doctrine of Christ"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Bible NEVER refers to believing as a work."

It never refers to repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or obedience till the end as "works" either.
But they are all things that must happen.

Not for salvation, they don't.

How does your religion say folks get "in" Christ?

I don't have religion. That's what people who think they are going to heaven on the basis of works have.

As for your question, Eph 1:13,14 details how a person is in Christ.

You keep mentioning believing "in Christ" and faith "in Christ", so how do we get "in" Christ?

It seems you aren't familiar with English words. There is no mystery about the words "believe in Christ" or "faith in Christ". But it seems so with you.

But I'm not surprised. And your questions continue to be extremely awkward.

To believe in Christ is to believe in what He did for you on the cross and what He promises to those who believe in Him. Quite simple, really.

Your unfamiliarity with Scripture is astounding.

Here is a breakdown of the phrase "in Christ" by various translations:

ESV 429
KJV 334
NIV 370
NKJV 569

I don't know any evangelical Christians who would even think to ask such a question as you have asked about what it means to "believe in Christ".

But, since you have religion instead of Christ, your question would make sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phil,
Your view that the Holy Spirit is given at water baptism which saves the soul is refuted by Scripture.

You are thinking of someone else, as I don't believe that.

Did you repent of that thought?

Peter did say "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." in Acts 2:38; but receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is also dependent on a turn from sin. Repentance.

You are flat wrong. And I've already given you clear Scripture about this. But, I'm going to do it again, since it seems you aren't paying attention.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

The answer is clear: by believing what they heard. In fact, Paul makes a very clear point that repentance, found in the works of the law, do NOT result in receiving the Spirit.

I've given you examples from Scripture that receiving the Spirit comes from believing in Christ.

Acts 10- the context is Peter preaching the gospel to Cornelius and his household-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

Now for the explanation in Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

The blue words prove the distinction between water baptism and baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The red words refer to Cornelius and household receiving the Holy Spirit on the basis of believing in Christ.

I said:
"Acts 1-
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
This was said after His resurrection."

Agreed, and it was manifested to have happened by the flames of fire and the speaking in tongues.

And, what is your point? This is mentioned only the first time baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred. It is never described again. Why would I assume it occurs every time a person is baptizes with the Spirit?

I said:
"However, notice what Jesus said to His disciples during the Last Supper in John 13-
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
The red words state the fact that His disciples at the Last Supper were SAVED, and the blue words indicate not everyone was saved."

Jesus did the same thing to all the disciples, so why weren't they ALL, as you say, "saved"?

Why would you think washing feet results in salvation or reflects salvation? Do you really not understand anything that Jesus was saying to them? I even color coded His words to make his meaning more clear.

I guess then that the "procedure" had nothing to do with salvation

Well, of course not! Again, I know of no evangelical Christian who would even think in such terms and ideas.

Your question only reveals your ignorance in what Jesus was teaching His disciples.

I said:
"So, the 11 saved disciples were saved BEFORE Acts 1:5 occurred.
This alone proves that salvation is not based on water baptism."

That in itself shows they were NOT saved yet.

So, you're going to totally IGNORE John 13:10,11 then? Well, that's on you.

But you are stubbornly locked in your own theories and opinions and assumptions. But Scripture is clear, whether you agree with it or not.

By the way, you are now including washing of feet as a necessity for salvation...but not remission of past sins, repentance, or rebirth.

I am certainly NOT including that. The washing of feet was an act of humility and service to one another, which you obviously have no clue. That is clear from Jesus' response to Peter, who didn't want Jesus to wash his feet. He thought it was too demeaning for Jesus to do that. So Jesus made the point that Peter would have "no part with Him" if He didn't wash his feet. Jesus was speaking of fellowship, another subject you seem totally unfamiliar with.

At that, Peter, still misunderstanding, much like yourself, asked for a whole bath. Which is what led Jesus to speak the words of v.10 and 11.

Peter didn't need a bath. He was already saved "clean".

Puzzling...

I find it quite puzzling for someone who claims to be a Christian to be so unfamiliar with Scripture.

I said:
"In addition, the residents of Samaria believed the gospel and were water baptized per Acts 8:12. Yet, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter and John came and laid hands on them."

Now it is the reception of the Holy Ghost that is necessary for salvation?

Not at all! On the basis of believing in Jesus, they were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit didn't occur for some early Gentile believers until after their salvation. Acts 19 is another example.

Keep on going and we will eventually meet together.

Not at the rate of your unfamiliarity with Scripture.

Just repentance from dead works and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, to go till we are in total agreement.

Your questions alone prove that we'll never be in agreement.

BTW, if baptism is unnecessary, why were the Samaritans baptized?

Water baptism was ALWAYS a symbol of our union with Christ. 1 Pet 3:21, which you've already rejected.

You've mentioned laying on of hands, so you must be familiar with Heb 6:1-2..."Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit."
Why do you keep dismissing the "principles of the doctrine of Christ"?

What does v.2 begin with?

Remember who the writer was writing to: Jews who had believed in Christ. ch 6 shows the possibility or reality of some of these saved Jewish believers returning to the levitical offerings for atonement. There was no need of this since Christ was the perfect once for all atonement for sin. Read ch 7-10 for context.