Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

You make a lot of claims, but have zero evidence to support any of it.

I've certainly tried.

Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God. Those who don't believe that simply are IGNORANT of Scripture. Shame on them.

I agree.
It is the false believers who say they are reborn but still bringing forth the works of the devil that are deemed "fallen away".

Again, wrong. It IS our responsibility to act like God's children (Christian), BUT we can only do so if we are filled with the Spirit. That is WHY Paul gave Christians that command. But you don't understand that command. Do you.

Agreed again.
Those without the Spirit of God are not reborn or "believers" because they still do the works of their devilish father.

There is no such thing as a false believer. The Bible mentions "false brothers" twice. So let's stick with what Scripture says and words Scripture uses, ok?

Different word, but same idea.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You make a lot of claims, but have zero evidence to support any of it."

I've certainly tried.

Kinda like hunting with blanks.

I said:
"Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God."

I agree.

That is good. Therefore, salvation is permanent. God's children are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as His possession. Eph 1:14

It is the false believers who say they are reborn but still bringing forth the works of the devil that are deemed "fallen away".

I believe your premise is false. The Bible never speaks of "false believers", or even any kind of "false faith". It does speak of "false brethren" twice. Which is quite different.

The problem with your theology is that all the warnings against sin, etc are to actual children of God; saved people, who have been regenerated. But you deny that, and without evidence. The Bible is very clear about who the warnings are for, as I've shown.

I said:
" It IS our responsibility to act like God's children (Christian), BUT we can only do so if we are filled with the Spirit. That is WHY Paul gave Christians that command."

Agreed again.

I'm not sure about that. You have shown no awareness of the fact that the believer who is Spirit indwelt still needs to be fillee with the Spirit, AND the believer CAN grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit.

Your theology doesn't allow for that.

Those without the Spirit of God are not reborn or "believers" because they still do the works of their devilish father.

This is true of all unbelievers. What you won't admit, even though the Bible is clear about it, is that believers who are NOT filled with the Spirit, but instead grieve or quench the Spirit, are also doing the works of the devil. But I wouldn't ever call the devil their father. They are STILL God's children, of whom the Bible is full of commands for holy living, which refutes your theology that regeneated people WON'T sin. If that were true, then there is NO NEED of commands for holy living.

Why not? Because anyone without a sin nature can ONLY live holy. Don't you see that?

I said:
"There is no such thing as a false believer. The Bible mentions "false brothers" twice. So let's stick with what Scripture says and words Scripture uses, ok?"

Different word, but same idea.

Not at all the same idea. Very different.

A false believer can just as well be a very sincere religious person who thinks they are saved by what they do. They knows lots of the Bible and use biblical language easily. Mormons and JWs demonstrate this.

A false brother is deceptive who is trying to trick believers intot thinking they are Chritians, when what they want is to spy on believers.

2 Cor 11:26 - on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers

Gal 2:4 - Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—

Neither of these verses describes unsaved people who actually thought they were Christians by how they lived, or what they did.

A false brother is a spy, and a danger to believers.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God."

In the truest sense...yes.
But there are plenty of folks posing as children of God who "fall away".
They are the devil's tools to pollute the truth of Christ and God.

That is good. Therefore, salvation is permanent. God's children are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as His possession. Eph 1:14

Salvation is permanent for those who are really God's children.

I believe your premise is false. The Bible never speaks of "false believers", or even any kind of "false faith". It does speak of "false brethren" twice. Which is quite different.

What is the difference in your opinion?

The problem with your theology is that all the warnings against sin, etc are to actual children of God; saved people, who have been regenerated. But you deny that, and without evidence. The Bible is very clear about who the warnings are for, as I've shown.

The warnings are for everyone.
Some will obey, living Godly lives, and others will seek preachers who will tickle their ears.

I'm not sure about that. You have shown no awareness of the fact that the believer who is Spirit indwelt still needs to be fillee with the Spirit,

If you have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost you are filled with the Holy Ghost.
It isn't a part-time or partial gift.

AND the believer CAN grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit.

Only unbelievers, posers will grieve the Holy Spirit.
The real children of God have His seed in them, and cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)
But the posers...have no protection from doing the works of their father, the devil.

This is true of all unbelievers.
What you won't admit, even though the Bible is clear about it, is that believers who are NOT filled with the Spirit, but instead grieve or quench the Spirit, are also doing the works of the devil. But I wouldn't ever call the devil their father. They are STILL God's children, of whom the Bible is full of commands for holy living, which refutes your theology that regeneated people WON'T sin. If that were true, then there is NO NEED of commands for holy living.

You fail to make any distinction between believers and unbelievers.
Scripture does.

Why not? Because anyone without a sin nature can ONLY live holy. Don't you see that?

I concur.
And I thank God for it.

A false believer can just as well be a very sincere religious person who thinks they are saved by what they do. They knows lots of the Bible and use biblical language easily. Mormons and JWs demonstrate this.

They can also think they are saved in spite of what they do.

A false brother is deceptive who is trying to trick believers into thinking they are Christians, when what they want is to spy on believers.

They can indeed be spies, at least in the old days when the Jews still controlled the religion of city of Jerusalem, but also other things may be going on.

2 Cor 11:26 - on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers
Gal 2:4 - Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—
Neither of these verses describes unsaved people who actually thought they were Christians by how they lived, or what they did.
A false brother is a spy, and a danger to believers.

Who do you think they are spying for?[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God."

In the truest sense...yes.

In the ONLY sense.

But there are plenty of folks posing as children of God who "fall away".

So you don't believe the Bible, then. Jesus was clear about some who believe for a while and then in time of testing/temptation, fall away. Luke 8:13.

If you dismiss these as "false brothers", or only posers, then you don't believe what Jesus said. Because He said they "believe for a while". He didn't say they faked a belief for a while, or they "believed in Buddha for a while", or any other nonsense.

They are the devil's tools to pollute the truth of Christ and God.

This also applies to true Christians who have been deceived by false doctrines.

Salvation is permanent for those who are really God's children.

Of course it is. But why do you bother bringing up those who aren't God's children?

But, at this point, I need to clarify something. Please explain how to become a child of God. Thanks.

I said:
"I believe your premise is false. The Bible never speaks of "false believers", or even any kind of "false faith". It does speak of "false brethren" twice. Which is quite different."

What is the difference in your opinion?

A false believer is simply a religious person who thinks they are saved by means other than what the Bible clearly states for salvation; which is faith in Jesus Christ only.

We have an example in Matt 7:21-23. This crowd based their entrance into the kingdom on what THEY did. Not on what Christ did for them.

I clearly defined a false brother in my last post, and gave Scripture to back it up. They are spies. Their whole point in lying about being a Christian is to spy on true believers.

I said:
"The problem with your theology is that all the warnings against sin, etc are to actual children of God; saved people, who have been regenerated. But you deny that, and without evidence. The Bible is very clear about who the warnings are for, as I've shown."

The warnings are for everyone.

Wrong again. Some warnings are about loss of rewards in heaven. That cannot apply to unsaved people. Other warnings are about God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) of His children during their lifetime. Again, this cannot apply to unbelievers.

It is clear that you do not rightly divide the word of truth.

Some will obey, living Godly lives, and others will seek preachers who will tickle their ears.

So you don't even try to differentiate between the saved and unsaved. Interesting, but weird.

If you have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost you are filled with the Holy Ghost.
It isn't a part-time or partial gift.

This shows that you really have no idea at all about any of this. Which is what I thought all along.

You see the indwlelling and filling as synonymous. How sad.

Indwelling is about residence in the believer. The Holy Spirit living in the believer.

Filling is about action. Power. Living the Christian life.

But since you see these 2 different words as the same, I don't expect you to follow.

Only unbelievers, posers will grieve the Holy Spirit.

First, why did Paul command believers to be filled with the Spirit, rather than filled with wine in Eph 5:18? You can't answer that, can you.

If indwelling and filling were the same thing, then his command would be just stupid and irrelevant, since he taught in Eph 1:13,14 that "having believed" the believer is marked IN CHRIST with the Holy Spirit, who Paul described as a deposit. Deposited IN the believer.

Second, so the believer has NO CONTROL over being indwelt with the Spirit. That is something God does to the believer, and is described as a gift.

Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, 10:45 and 11:17.

The real children of God have His seed in them, and cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)

But you deny the reality that the original sinful human nature is STILL present in the believer, which is the struggle Paul described in Gal 5:17. And the believer cannot sin ONLY WHEN filled with the Spirit, which you also deny by your error in equating the filling with the indwelling.

And you can't support any of your claims and opinions from Scripture.

But the posers...have no protection from doing the works of their father, the devil.

I've never said anything about posers. They aren't even in my discussion. So I don't know why you bother to bring them up.

You fail to make any distinction between believers and unbelievers.

This is as idiotic as it comes. Unbelievable.

Believers are those who place ALL of their trust in the work of Christ on the cross for their salvation. Unbelievers are those who either don't believe in God at all, to those who think they will go to heaven by any other means than on the work of Christ on their behalf.

Is that clear? You are the one who equates what the Scripture does NOT equate.

I said:
"Why not? Because anyone without a sin nature can ONLY live holy. Don't you see that?"

I concur.
And I thank God for it.

Your confusion continues. We lose the sin nature WHEN we leave the body. But you have denied that FACT.

They can also think they are saved in spite of what they do.

Lots of people think that. So what?

They can indeed be spies, at least in the old days when the Jews still controlled the religion of city of Jerusalem, but also other things may be going on.

Who do you think they are spying for?

Who cares? Doesn't matter. The point that does matter is that a false believer is one who thinks they are saved by any means other than what the Bible specifies.

A false brother is a spy, a liar, a deceiver, for malicient purposes.

 

[iamchance]

Salvation cannot be lost. You are purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, he paid the penalty for our sins.

Do you really believe the Father doesn't know our hearts and how prone we are to fall prior to our salvation?

Your salvation is secured. There are consequences for sin, but you will not lose your salvation. God's wrath is very real, but Jesus' blood covers us.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Once a child of God (Christisn), then ALWAYS a child of God."
In the ONLY sense.
So you don't believe the Bible, then. Jesus was clear about some who believe for a while and then in time of testing/temptation, fall away. Luke 8:13.

Turned out they didn't really believe.

If you dismiss these as "false brothers", or only posers, then you don't believe what Jesus said. Because He said they "believe for a while". He didn't say they faked a belief for a while, or they "believed in Buddha for a while", or any other nonsense.

They may have believed "for a while", but it wasn't true belief or they would have held to it.

But, at this point, I need to clarify something. Please explain how to become a child of God. Thanks.

Peter summed it up nicely in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
In tandem with Rom 6:3-6 which tells us how to kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life by Peter's baptism, our new Father's seed has begotten us into His family.
We can no longer bring forth the devil's children's fruit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"So you don't believe the Bible, then. Jesus was clear about some who believe for a while and then in time of testing/temptation, fall away. Luke 8:13."

Turned out they didn't really believe.

Turns out you don't believe Jesus then. He is the One who said that some "believe for a while and then fall away". They really DID believe. Because Jesus SAID SO.

So your argument is with Jesus, not me. I just love to quote Him.

They may have believed "for a while", but it wasn't true belief or they would have held to it.

Beyond your opinion, where do you find this in the Bible? I'm not interested in your or any other's opinion. But I am very interested in what the Bible says.

Can you support your opinion from the Bible?

Not only Jesus, but the apostle Paul said the same thing in 1 Tim 4:1.

We can no longer bring forth the devil's children's fruit.

If that were true, there would be NO NEED for any of the warnings or commands in Scripture regarding lifestyle and obedience.

You have failed to support your claims. And now you have no excuse, because you've been shown what the Bible says, which refutes your claims.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"So you don't believe the Bible, then. Jesus was clear about some who believe for a while and then in time of testing/temptation, fall away. Luke 8:13."
Turns out you don't believe Jesus then. He is the One who said that some "believe for a while and then fall away". They really DID believe. Because Jesus SAID SO.

If they believed "for awhile" and than "quit believing"...they are not believers anymore.

Beyond your opinion, where do you find this in the Bible? I'm not interested in your or any other's opinion. But I am very interested in what the Bible says.
Can you support your opinion from the Bible?
Not only Jesus, but the apostle Paul said the same thing in 1 Tim 4:1.

You just supplied them yourself.

If that were true, there would be NO NEED for any of the warnings or commands in Scripture regarding lifestyle and obedience.

Exhortations, admonissions, and warnings serve to guide and provide us with growth in grace and knowledge.
I knew nothing of the Lord's supper or speaking in tongues when I first believed I could serve only one Lord.
I knew nothing of Spiritual gifts or defense against temptation. Or of OT foreshadows fulfilled by Christ.

You have failed to support your claims. And now you have no excuse, because you've been shown what the Bible says, which refutes your claims.

If I haven't been able to convince you, and you are actively seeking a way of life that truly pleases God, He will provide one who can answer your questions better than I.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they believed "for awhile" and than "quit believing"...they are not believers anymore.

You're missing a simple fact. The Bible never describes "former believers" as unbelievers. In fact, every single mention of unbelievers means those who NEVER believed.

And consider the fact that "having believed" (aorist tense), the believer is:
1. given the gift of eternal life
2. sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit which guarantees their inheritance (as God's children - Rom 8:17) for the day of redemption as God's possession. Eph 1:14
3. regenerated
4. forgiven of all sin

None of these things are revokable.

Exhortations, admonissions, and warnings serve to guide and provide us with growth in grace and knowledge.

They go much farther than just this. They speak to loss of rewards in eternity.

Do you believe that there will be equality among all residents of heaven?

If I haven't been able to convince you, and you are actively seeking a way of life that truly pleases God, He will provide one who can answer your questions better than I.

I hope my comments show you why I cannot accept your views.

 

[Phil W]

You're missing a simple fact. The Bible never describes "former believers" as unbelievers. In fact, every single mention of unbelievers means those who NEVER believed.

Had they ever believed, they would still believe.
Facts they once depended on for their prior belief didn't change, they did.

And consider the fact that "having believed" (aorist tense), the believer is:
1. given the gift of eternal life
2. sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit which guarantees their inheritance (as God's children - Rom 8:17) for the day of redemption as God's possession. Eph 1:14
3. regenerated
4. forgiven of all sin
None of these things are revokable.

If they were regenerated they didn't show the proof of it.
They were still bearing the fruit of the devil.

They go much farther than just this. They speak to loss of rewards in eternity.
Do you believe that there will be equality among all residents of heaven?

No.
God will have preeminence.

I hope my comments show you why I cannot accept your views.

You have been snared with a false doctrine that allows the filth of hell into heaven.
It tolerates and even celebrates disobedience to God and dismisses the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Had they ever believed, they would still believe.

Repeating your belief doesn't make it true.

What you are doing is NOT believing what the Bible says plainly.

Facts they once depended on for their prior belief didn't change, they did.

So? Aren't you aware of the definition of an apostate? It's someone who no longer believes what they used to believe. Of course they changed.

If they were regenerated they didn't show the proof of it.
They were still bearing the fruit of the devil.

OK. So?

I said:
"Do you believe that there will be equality among all residents of heaven?"

No.
God will have preeminence.

Do you seriously think I was including sovereign God with human and angelic beings?

So, now that we have gotten that cleared up for you, do you believe that there will be equality among all humans in heaven?

You have been snared with a false doctrine that allows the filth of hell into heaven.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? What makes you think this silliness is what I believe?

Rather, I believe what the Bible says. At physical death, the believer's soul is separated from his body of corruption. At the resurrection, the believer is given a NEW resurrection body, just like Jesus' resurrection body.

So, in that view, where does all this "filth of hell" come from?

It tolerates and even celebrates disobedience to God and dismisses the death and resurrection of Christ.

Why do you LIE so much? If you cannot prove from any of my posts that I "celebrate disobedience to God", that's just what you are; a LIAR.

Knock it off or prove your very stupid claims. I'm tired of them.

And shame on you for LYING.

That's a sin, btw. So you can also stop lying about that as well.

Another btw. There are only 2 explanations for your repeatedly WRONG understanding about my view.

You are either way ignorant and cannot understand my view.

Or you DO understand my view but choose to misrepresent it. That is LYING.

So, you're one or the other.

You tell me.

Well, there is another possibility. Just too LAZY to even both trying to understand my view.

So, what is it?

Ignorant?
LIAR?
Lazy?

 

[Phil W]

So? Aren't you aware of the definition of an apostate? It's someone who no longer believes what they used to believe. Of course they changed.

But according to you the apostates will still go to heaven.

I said:
"Do you believe that there will be equality among all residents of heaven?"
Do you seriously think I was including sovereign God with human and angelic beings?

I answered you question.

So, now that we have gotten that cleared up for you, do you believe that there will be equality among all humans in heaven?

Yes.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? What makes you think this silliness is what I believe?
Rather, I believe what the Bible says. At physical death, the believer's soul is separated from his body of corruption. At the resurrection, the believer is given a NEW resurrection body, just like Jesus' resurrection body.
So, in that view, where does all this "filth of hell" come from?

You keep saying that sinners will be in heaven.
Sinners are not Jesus' sheep, as they don't "follow Him".
Sinners won't inherit eternal life.
They will, however, hear..."Depart from me ye workers of iniquity".

 

[FreeGrace2]

But according to you the apostates will still go to heaven.

Why do you think that idea came from me??

Jesus said in very plain and clear wording that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you not understand what He was meaning?

I said:
"So, now that we have gotten that cleared up for you, do you believe that there will be equality among all humans in heaven?"

Yes.

Well, this is another area that you lack biblical understanding in. The Bible teaches about eternal rewards, which is earned by obedience and faithfulness. But Arminians screwed all that up and misunderstand and think heaven alone is a reward, and that, instead of losing eternal rewards, it is salvation itself that can be lost.

You keep saying that sinners will be in heaven.

And I keep explaining myself. Are the concepts I explain too difficult for you to follow or understand? I'm serious.

Here's the deal. Humans ARE sinners. Period. All of them. The Bible says so. But you'd have to have read Romans 3 to know what the Bible says about that.

Sinners are not Jesus' sheep, as they don't "follow Him".

Let me ask you a very simple question. Do sheep ALWAYS follow their shepherd?

Just ask any shepherd about sheep. They are among the DUMBEST of animals. They get lost easily. They make stupid mistakes. Their shepherds spend a GREAT DEAL of time looking for them, and pulling them out of thickets, etc.

So don't for a minute think there is anything honorable about being a sheep. I don't think Jesus used that metaphor for humans for nothing. I think He was making a point.

Sinners won't inherit eternal life.

Every sinner who has believed in Jesus Christ for salvation receives the gift of eternal life and shall never perish. Jesus said so in John 10:28.

Do you believe it isn't a SIN to reject what Jesus said, or disbelieve what He said?

They will, however, hear..."Depart from me ye workers of iniquity".

The point you seem to have missed is that this crowd was basing their entrance into heaven on WHAT THEY DID. There was nothing in their defense about trusting in WHAT JESUS DID FOR THEM.

Do you know what that means? They NEVER believed in Jesus Christ for salvation. They thought, all along, that they could earn heaven by what they did.

Don't you understand the point of that passage??

That fact that you don't think you are a sinner is refuted by Scripture. 1 John 1:8,10.

Even your disagreement with Scripture is sinful.

James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Romans 14:23 - But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So, from James, I don't see any reason to exclude "doing" from "knowing". Do you think it is "doing good" to disagree with Jesus' very clear words? I don't.

So, from Romans, "whatever is not from faith is sin" applies directly to your rejection of what Jesus said. iow, you don't believe Him.

You have NO faith in what He said about recipients of eternal life.

These 2 verses also condemn you as a current sinner.

 

[Phil W]

Why do you think that idea came from me??
Jesus said in very plain and clear wording that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you not understand what He was meaning?

But counter to Jesus you say those sheep who are NOT His get eternal life.

I said:
"So, now that we have gotten that cleared up for you, do you believe that there will be equality among all humans in heaven?"
Well, this is another area that you lack biblical understanding in. The Bible teaches about eternal rewards, which is earned by obedience and faithfulness. But Arminians screwed all that up and misunderstand and think heaven alone is a reward, and that, instead of losing eternal rewards, it is salvation itself that can be lost.

Rewards don't elevate or drop one's standing before God.
Heaven IS a reward...for obedience to God.

And I keep explaining myself. Are the concepts I explain too difficult for you to follow or understand? I'm serious.

You preach counter to my Lord and His disciples.

Here's the deal. Humans ARE sinners. Period. All of them. The Bible says so. But you'd have to have read Romans 3 to know what the Bible says about that.

Hence the need for the death of the "first" you and rebirth of the new creature.
Jesus was a human non-sinner...the first of many.

Let me ask you a very simple question. Do sheep ALWAYS follow their shepherd?

Yes, if they love and trust the Shepherd.

Just ask any shepherd about sheep. They are among the DUMBEST of animals. They get lost easily. They make stupid mistakes. Their shepherds spend a GREAT DEAL of time looking for them, and pulling them out of thickets, etc.

Jesus' sheep don't need sheering.
You are having trouble understanding "pictures", "similes".

So don't for a minute think there is anything honorable about being a sheep. I don't think Jesus used that metaphor for humans for nothing. I think He was making a point.

The point was that sheep won't follow someone they don't know.
Jesus' sheep know Him...and won't follow false leaders.

Every sinner who has believed in Jesus Christ for salvation receives the gift of eternal life and shall never perish. Jesus said so in John 10:28.

They will IF they follow Him, and He doesn't lead "sheep" into sin.
So...sinners don't receive eternal life.

Do you believe it isn't a SIN to reject what Jesus said, or disbelieve what He said?

You mean verses like..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt 5:48) ?

The point you seem to have missed is that this crowd was basing their entrance into heaven on WHAT THEY DID. There was nothing in their defense about trusting in WHAT JESUS DID FOR THEM.

"Believers"...rejected from heaven.

Do you know what that means? They NEVER believed in Jesus Christ for salvation. They thought, all along, that they could earn heaven by what they did.

That doesn't make any sense, as they were casting out devils in Jesus' name and doing miracles.
The deal breaker was, as Jesus stated, committing iniquity.

That fact that you don't think you are a sinner is refuted by Scripture. 1 John 1:8,10.

If those two verses mean what you say, then verses 5, 7 and 9 of 1 John 1 are all lies.
& and 9 say ALL our sin-unrighteousness CAN be washed away by the blood of Christ.

James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Why would that scripture matter to someone guaranteed eternal life regardless of their behavior?

Romans 14:23 - But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Why would that scripture matter to someone guaranteed eternal life regardless of their behavior?

So, from James, I don't see any reason to exclude "doing" from "knowing". Do you think it is "doing good" to disagree with Jesus' very clear words? I don't.

Do you think it is good to lean on verse 28 of John 10 and disregard the verse before it?
I don't.

So, from Romans, "whatever is not from faith is sin" applies directly to your rejection of what Jesus said. iow, you don't believe Him.

I follow my Shepherd.
Who are you following that doesn't mind sin in heaven?

You have NO faith in what He said about recipients of eternal life.

I believe the gift is given only to those who "follow the good Shepherd".
Why?
Because Jesus said it first.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why do you think that idea came from me??
Jesus said in very plain and clear wording that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you not understand what He was meaning?"

But counter to Jesus you say those sheep who are NOT His get eternal life.

No, I never did say that, or anythig close to that.

There you go, LYING once again. Which is a sin.

Rewards don't elevate or drop one's standing before God.

The Bible says differently.

1 Cor 11:19 - No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

Heaven IS a reward...for obedience to God.

This statement PROVES that you don't even understand salvation.

A reward, by definition, is something EARNED. Salvation is by GRACE, which means works is eliminated.

Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 4-
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Your statement demonstrates that you don't know the Bible.

You preach counter to my Lord and His disciples.

No, I quote Him and His disciples. All of which you have rejected, by your very words.

Hence the need for the death of the "first" you and rebirth of the new creature.
Jesus was a human non-sinner...the first of many.

As a reminder, I've shown the verses that refute your ideas.

Jesus' sheep don't need sheering.

I'll just bet you have a verse that says as much, right.

The point was that sheep won't follow someone they don't know.
Jesus' sheep know Him...and won't follow false leaders.

Do you suppose the greatest evangelists and theologian, who was taught directly by God, didn't get that memo? This is what he wrote to young Timothy:

1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

You do understand that in order to "abandon" ship or a burning house, one must first be IN the ship or house, right?

So...sinners don't receive eternal life.

Again, you don't know the Scriptures.

Rom 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Believers receive eternal life. The moment they believe.

You mean verses like..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt 5:48) ?

I've already explained the Greek word for "perfect".

"Believers"...rejected from heaven.

No believer will be rejected from heaven.

That doesn't make any sense, as they were casting out devils in Jesus' name and doing miracles.

But you aren't aware of what Scripture says about this.

Matt 12-
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.

So don't criticize what you don't even understand.

The deal breaker was, as Jesus stated, committing iniquity.

They committed sin by using the name of Jesus when they cast out demons by Satan himself.

One more thing; you don't even understand the significance of Jesus telling them, "I NEVER knew you".

How could He say that of someone that He HAD KNOWN previously? This statement PROVES that they never believed, and never had fellowship with Him.

I said:
"That fact that you don't think you are a sinner is refuted by Scripture. 1 John 1:8,10."

If those two verses mean what you say, then verses 5, 7 and 9 of 1 John 1 are all lies.

You're going to have to explain and prove your claim. Which is impossible, since you don't understand Scripture.

& and 9 say ALL our sin-unrighteousness CAN be washed away by the blood of Christ.

Again, you don't understand Scripture.

I said:
"James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them."

Why would that scripture matter to someone guaranteed eternal life regardless of their behavior?

Well, you don't understand Scripture. Which teaches that disobedient and unfaithful children of God (believers) will be painfully disciplined. That's why it matters.

I said:
"Romans 14:23 - But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin."

Why would that scripture matter to someone guaranteed eternal life regardless of their behavior?

Well, you don't understand Scripture. Sin results in God's painful discipline.

Do you think it is good to lean on verse 28 of John 10 and disregard the verse before it?
I don't.

So please explain HOW v.27 turns v.28 into something OTHER than what the plain words say? Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I follow my Shepherd.

That is impossible since you don't even believe what He says about recipients of eternal life.

Who are you following that doesn't mind sin in heaven?

Again, more misrepresenting my position. And since I've explained it thoroughly, this means you are just LYING.

I believe the gift is given only to those who "follow the good Shepherd".
Why?
Because Jesus said it first.

No He didn't.

So I CHALLENGE you to prove what you say by quoting the verse that actually SAYS what you claim here; that Jesus SAID that He gives the gift only to those who follow the good Shepherd.

He never said that. And I challenge you to prove your claim.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
So I CHALLENGE you to prove what you say by quoting the verse that actually SAYS what you claim here; that Jesus SAID that He gives the gift only to those who follow the good Shepherd.
He never said that. And I challenge you to prove your claim.

It is written..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
"MY sheep, hear my voice, and they follow me, and I give THEM eternal life."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
So I CHALLENGE you to prove what you say by quoting the verse that actually SAYS what you claim here; that Jesus SAID that He gives the gift only to those who follow the good Shepherd.
He never said that. And I challenge you to prove your claim.

It is written..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
"MY sheep, hear my voice, and they follow me, and I give THEM eternal life."

Again, you have proved nothing. Except a failure to properly understand conditional clauses, which DON'T OCCUR in either v.27 or v.28.

So, I'll exlain how all this works, regarding conditional clauses.

If hearing and following were conditions for being given eternal life, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE said:

"I will give eternal life to those who hear my voice and follow me."

Now, that's a condition for receiving eternal life; hearing and following.

But most conditional clauses include possibilities, by use of the "if...then" format.

So, let's re-write v.28 as an actual conditional clause.

"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and IF they hear and follow Me, they shall never perish."

If that doesn't suit you, here's another format for a conditional clause.

"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and AS LONG AS they hear and follow Me, they shall never perish."

So, now you know what a conditional clause is and how to identify one.

And, the fact that NONE exists in either v.27 or v.28.

v.27 is a simple description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Or are SUPPOSED TO DO, as a policy statement.

And v.28 is a simple statement of the result of being given eternal life; the recipient shall never perish.

However, what does the Bible say about how to possess eternal life?

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Not one verse about following for eternal life.

So you've shown your biblical ignorance again.

If following is a condition for receiving eternal life, then it is by one's lifestyle, works, deeds, or whatever you want to call it.

But what you CANNOT call it is salvation by GRACE. For their's no grace in working for something.

From my many years of forum activity, it has become exceedingly clear that most of the cause of the false doctrines in Christianity is from failure to read correctly.

Summary:
v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO.
v.28 is a statement of FACT, the result of being given eternal life.

But that doesn't align with your own opinions and claims. So you have to make up another claim that hearing and following are conditions for which the doers are given eternal life.

That, sir, is a LIE. And very anti-grace.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
So I CHALLENGE you to prove what you say by quoting the verse that actually SAYS what you claim here; that Jesus SAID that He gives the gift only to those who follow the good Shepherd.
He never said that. And I challenge you to prove your claim.
Again, you have proved nothing. Except a failure to properly understand conditional clauses, which DON'T OCCUR in either v.27 or v.28.
So, I'll exlain how all this works, regarding conditional clauses.
If hearing and following were conditions for being given eternal life, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE said:
"I will give eternal life to those who hear my voice and follow me."
Now, that's a condition for receiving eternal life; hearing and following.
But most conditional clauses include possibilities, by use of the "if...then" format.
So, let's re-write v.28 as an actual conditional clause.
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and IF they hear and follow Me, they shall never perish."
If that doesn't suit you, here's another format for a conditional clause.

There is nothing "conditional" about it, as John 10:27 an
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and AS LONG AS they hear and follow Me, they shall never perish."
So, now you know what a conditional clause is and how to identify one.
And, the fact that NONE exists in either v.27 or v.28.[/QUOTE]
It isn't "conditional", it is just a statement of fact that Jesus' sheep "follow Him", and are the ones who will be given eternal life.
If they are not following Him they don't hear Him and get nothing from Him.

v.27 is a simple description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Or are SUPPOSED TO DO, as a policy statement.

And those outside of God's "policy" get nothing.

And v.28 is a simple statement of the result of being given eternal life; the recipient shall never perish.
However, what does the Bible say about how to possess eternal life?
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

What did that say about those who "does not obey the Son"?
They will NOT see life.

If following is a condition for receiving eternal life, then it is by one's lifestyle, works, deeds, or whatever you want to call it.

It is just the facts as Jesus presented them.
The lifestyle, works, and deed of the reborn reflect the seed they have reborn of.
Just as do the sins of the unrepentant, unreborn.

But what you CANNOT call it is salvation by GRACE. For their's no grace in working for something.

Isn't it by he grace of God we can do anything?
Like Paul wrote in Gal 2:20..." I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
It isn't "my" lifestyle, works, and deeds.
It is His.

From my many years of forum activity, it has become exceedingly clear that most of the cause of the false doctrines in Christianity is from failure to read correctly.

From my perspective it is because men want to continue in sin.

 

[straykat]

Whether salvation is lost or not doesn't seem worth arguing about. Sounds like a bad idea to live as if it could not be lost anyways. And not just a bad idea for myself. A bad idea for society in general if we all lived that way. That's essentially Aleister Crowley's Luciferianism by another name: "Do what thou wilt." The end result of people living these worry free lives would create hell on earth.

And lets assume that I still gained eternal life. Even so, I would lose my soul in this life anyways. What's the point of that? If I lived a sexually immoral life, I'd still hurt others, stop believing in love (thereby rotting my own soul with cynicism), and might even catch a disease (or two.. or three). And so on and so forth. Name any sin and there's always temporal consequences. You don't have to just think of eternal consequences. The wages of sin is death - even in this life. Death of the mind, death of society, and just plain death.

No, I should "discipline myself" like an athlete, as Paul says, and fight the good fight.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It isn't "conditional", it is just a statement of fact that Jesus' sheep "follow Him", and are the ones who will be given eternal life.

Still NOT reading the verse correctly. No, v.27 isn't a statement of fact, but a description of what they DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

And v.28 is about the sheep, and NOT at all about what they do in order to never perish, which seems to be your "twist" on the verse.

If they are not following Him they don't hear Him and get nothing from Him.

Can you back that claim up with any verse? Of course you can't, and you know it.

And those outside of God's "policy" get nothing.

They would be those who never believed.

What did that say about those who "does not obey the Son"?
They will NOT see life.

If you rightly divide the word of truth, John 3:36 is clear about who won't see life. Those who disbelieve the gospel. That's what 'apietho' means.

From my perspective it is because men want to continue in sin.

And your perspective isn't from the Bible.

Your view is extremely biased, and generated from your rather poor reading of verses.

The Bible in very plain words teaches that believers WILL struggle with sin. But you deny what the Bible teaches.