Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

He also provided a way to kill the old nature so it is not a factor in our decision making anymore.

killing the osn is a figure of speech, my friend.

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Did your flesh get nailed to a cross? If not literally, then the phrase is a figure of speech.

So, show me your nail holes, please.

However, let's revisit Romans 6. One of your "big" proof texts is v.7 - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

So you think you have been literally freed from sinning, right?

Well then, WHY did Paul write v.12- Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Do you really not see the contradiction in your use of v.7? If v.7 is a literal freeing from sinning, then there would be NO NEED for Paul to command believers to "not let sin reign in your body".

Only BECAUSE believers STiLL sin does he say that.

Now, on to Romans 7. Your claim that the chapter is a historical present is refuted by these verses:

v.17 - As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

You are NO DIFFERENT than Paul, writing in the PRESENT TENSE.

If this was a historical present, the words "as it is" wouldn't be there. He would ahve said "as it WAS", referring to a past time or event.

Just as sin lives IN Paul, sin lives IN you.

But that's not all.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

How can v.21 be a historical present and not also v.22? If Paul was speaking about his life as an unbeliever, then v.22 CANNOT BE TRUE, in a historical present.

So, both verses are in the SAME TENSE. And it cannot be the historical present, since Paul could not have delighted in God's law as an unbeliever.

So then, v.21 is also a present reality with Paul. Even though he WANTS to do good, evil is there WITH me. That means in the flesh, as v.17 makes very clear.

Now on to the last 2 verses to consider:

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Again, if ch 7 is a historical present, v.25 doesn't fit his past experience.

In v.24 he admits that he is a "wretched man", all because of v.17, that sin lives in him.

v.25 is the solution to his wretched human condition. He has a choice to make, and this choice is moment by moment, since temptations are all around him and us.

Even though Paul IS a slave to God's law in his mind (he knows what to to), his sinful nature (see? he still has a sinful nature as a believer) is still a slave to the law of sin.

It's all about choice. And to claim that you've only made the right choice for years on end is delusional. 1 John 1:9 is for everyone, you included.

So there's your problem.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is written..."Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Tim 1:19-20)
Were they "believers"...once?

I would say they were believers involved in FALSE DOCTRINE, just as many believers of today are involved in FALSE DOCTRINE.

So why are the takers of the mark of the beast eliminated from eternal salvation if blasphemers aren't?

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Takers of the mark are those who never believed. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us who will be condemned.

Taking the mark is the seal of their fate. But even other unbelievers who do recognize the evil of the beast and don't take the mark will STILL be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.

So, what's your point?

He did, in verse 27..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Those who won't "follow Him" don't have a guarantee of heaven.

I am just appalled at your extremely poor reading comprehension. There is NOTHING that turns v.27 into conditions for never perishing. Zero. To claim otherwise is to admit your failure to grasp English.

Jesus' point in v.28 is that those He gives eternal life to, which are believers, shall never perish. Your claims about these verses are outlandish and just reveal how poorly you comprehend the Word.

All sins are unto death, if they are not "turned from".

Gimme a verse, please. Otherwise, this get thrown onto the opinion pile.

There will be no liars or adulterers in heaven.

I have to assume you are referring to Rev 21:8. Just note the first 2 descriptors, please. Cowardly and unbelieving. Both refer to the same thing; they never believed in Christ.

So your list describes unbelievers.

Only those who repented of lying and fornication...those who "follow Him".

Please provide just 1 verse that says one is saved or goes to heaven by "following Jesus".

Don't you realize that the crowd that Jesus referred to in Matt 7:21-23 followed Him???

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The red words prove that they "followed Jesus". Why else would they prophesy, drive out demons and perform miracles IN HIS NAME, if they weren't following Him?????

But they were just religious. They had form, but no substance.

Why did Jesus said the blue words, "I NEVER knew you".

Because they NEVER believed in Him.

Yes, they followed Him, and did great things IN HIS NAME. But it was all phony. Not that they were doing it consciously in a phony way, but they were depending on what THEY DID to get into the kingdom. That was their "faith".

What they NEVER did was to believe in Jesus for getting into the kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The result of hearing and following Christ and His teachings and commandments is to receive eternal life.


again


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


again



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God

Please explain to all of us how a person can follow Christ without obeying Him?


Hear - The KJV translates Strong's G191 in the following manner: hear (418x), hearken (6x), give audience (3x), hearer (2x), miscellaneous (8x

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
   
   
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
      
      
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
      
      
   2. to get by hearing learn
      
      
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
      
      
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
      
      
   5. to comprehend, to understand

Jesus SAID, in PLAIN WORDS, that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

Simple, straightforward statement about eternal security.

From the MOMENT one believes in Him for salvation, He gives THEM eternal life, and He SAYS they shall never perish.

But you go forth BOLDLY claiming something the exact opposite of what Jesus SAID.

You believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. He said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It is clear that you don't know the difference bettween CAN and NEVER.

btw, NEVER means CAN'T. Therefore, believers CAN'T perish. That's what "shall never" means in words that you should be able to understand.

Your views are so conflicted that you have been blinded to that fact.

 

[Phil W]

killing the osn is a figure of speech, my friend.
Did your flesh get nailed to a cross? If not literally, then the phrase is a figure of speech.
So, show me your nail holes, please.

My death, with Christ, was literal. As was my burial and resurrection with Christ.
Jesus bears "the holes", as He bears the marks of the whip and the wounds from the crown of thorns.
I was "immersed" into Him, I didn't replace Him.

However, let's revisit Romans 6. One of your "big" proof texts is v.7 - because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
So you think you have been literally freed from sinning, right?
Well then, WHY did Paul write v.12- Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Do you really not see the contradiction in your use of v.7? If v.7 is a literal freeing from sinning, then there would be NO NEED for Paul to command believers to "not let sin reign in your body".
Only BECAUSE believers STiLL sin does he say that.

These kinds of questions surprise me, as you are such an advocate of "belief".
Why don't you believe what is written?
Verse twelve, and dozens of other verses, support the newly reborn's propensity to remain faithful with clear demarcations of what is and is not allowable.

Now, on to Romans 7. Your claim that the chapter is a historical present is refuted by these verses:

Not the whole chapter.
Just verses 12 through 24.

v.17 - As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
You are NO DIFFERENT than Paul, writing in the PRESENT TENSE.
If this was a historical present, the words "as it is" wouldn't be there. He would ahve said "as it WAS", referring to a past time or event.
Just as sin lives IN Paul, sin lives IN you.

As Paul was speaking from the perspective of still being in the past, "as it is" is perfectly acceptable.

But that's not all.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
How can v.21 be a historical present and not also v.22? If Paul was speaking about his life as an unbeliever, then v.22 CANNOT BE TRUE, in a historical present.
So, both verses are in the SAME TENSE. And it cannot be the historical present, since Paul could not have delighted in God's law as an unbeliever.
So then, v.21 is also a present reality with Paul. Even though he WANTS to do good, evil is there WITH me. That means in the flesh, as v.17 makes very clear.

I took the liberty of adding verse 23 above to clarify the issue.
Paul sees "another law" in his members-the law of sin.
But Romans 8:2 shows Paul has been freed from that law by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".
8:2 shows 7:21-23 were in the past.

Now on to the last 2 verses to consider:
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Again, if ch 7 is a historical present, v.25 doesn't fit his past experience.
In v.24 he admits that he is a "wretched man", all because of v.17, that sin lives in him.

It sure does reveal a past situation, because Paul had already written of the "cure" for the "body of this of death" in Rom 6:6.
And Paul thanks God for that deliverance.

v.25 is the solution to his wretched human condition. He has a choice to make, and this choice is moment by moment, since temptations are all around him and us.

Verse 25, God, is the solution to the problem you won't rid yourself of.
Crucify the flesh, bury it, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)

Even though Paul IS a slave to God's law in his mind (he knows what to to), his sinful nature (see? he still has a sinful nature as a believer) is still a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 says you are wrong.

It's all about choice. And to claim that you've only made the right choice for years on end is delusional. 1 John 1:9 is for everyone, you included.
So there's your problem.

All my "problems", weaknesses, addictions, and slavery to lusts, ended at my death with Christ.
I walk in the light now...thanks be to God.
And it all started with a REAL, permanent, turn from sin.

God has enough grace to make it happen for you too.

 

[Phil W]

I would say they were believers involved in FALSE DOCTRINE, just as many believers of today are involved in FALSE DOCTRINE.

As they were with Paul, what false doctrine was he teaching?
If they ever believed once, they don't believe now.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Takers of the mark are those who never believed. John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 tell us who will be condemned.

No sinner is a believer.
Had they been, their love and appreciation for God, plus all the armaments God gives His children, would have precluded sin.
Not to mention that grape vines cannot bear figs as God's progeny cannot bear devilish fruit.

Taking the mark is the seal of their fate. But even other unbelievers who do recognize the evil of the beast and don't take the mark will STILL be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.

Why would an unbeliever refuse t take a mark that allows them to function in their society?

I am just appalled at your extremely poor reading comprehension. There is NOTHING that turns v.27 into conditions for never perishing. Zero. To claim otherwise is to admit your failure to grasp English.

Do sinners "follow" Jesus?
No, they have other things they worship instead of God.

Jesus' point in v.28 is that those He gives eternal life to, which are believers, shall never perish. Your claims about these verses are outlandish and just reveal how poorly you comprehend the Word.

The followers of Christ and God are believers indeed, and their behavior testifies to it.
Sinners are not believers.

Gimme a verse, please.

Rom 6:23..."For the wages of sin is death;..."
As those with eternal life will never die, the delineation between believer/non-sinner and unbeliever/sinner is illustrated with death.

I have to assume you are referring to Rev 21:8. Just note the first 2 descriptors, please. Cowardly and unbelieving. Both refer to the same thing; they never believed in Christ.
So your list describes unbelievers.

It also describes sinners. No sinner will go to heaven.
But you keep dismissing the sins of the supposed "believers".
Sinning means unbelief.

Please provide just 1 verse that says one is saved or goes to heaven by "following Jesus".

How about your favorite, John 10:27-28?

Don't you realize that the crowd that Jesus referred to in Matt 7:21-23 followed Him???
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If they still committed iniquity they weren't "following Him".

The red words prove that they "followed Jesus". Why else would they prophesy, drive out demons and perform miracles IN HIS NAME, if they weren't following Him?????

You are believing workers of iniquity?

But they were just religious. They had form, but no substance.
Why did Jesus said the blue words, "I NEVER knew you".
Because they NEVER believed in Him.
Yes, they followed Him, and did great things IN HIS NAME. But it was all phony. Not that they were doing it consciously in a phony way, but they were depending on what THEY DID to get into the kingdom. That was their "faith".
What they NEVER did was to believe in Jesus for getting into the kingdom.

What they did was commit sin.
They never repented of sin, nor did they ever have the faith to crucify and bury it at water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My death, with Christ, was literal. As was my burial and resurrection with Christ.
Jesus bears "the holes", as He bears the marks of the whip and the wounds from the crown of thorns.

If it was literal, you'd also have "holes". But you don't.

I was "immersed" into Him, I didn't replace Him.

Who said anything about replacement??

Your "immersion" into Him is the baptism (identification) of the Holy Spirit, which seals the believer and GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

These kinds of questions surprise me, as you are such an advocate of "belief".
Why don't you believe what is written?

What's wrong with you?? OF course I believe what is written. It's you with the problem of comprehension.

Verse twelve, and dozens of other verses, support the newly reborn's propensity to remain faithful with clear demarcations of what is and is not allowable.

Propensity doesn't = guaranteed action.

As Paul was speaking from the perspective of still being in the past, "as it is" is perfectly acceptable.

No it's not. You're just twisting Scripture to fit your opinions. It's ALL in the present tense, not your fantasy of the historical present.

in fact, the historical present is the only way you justify your unbiblical opinion. But you can't prove the chapter is in that tense.

I took the liberty of adding verse 23 above to clarify the issue.
Paul sees "another law" in his members-the law of sin.
But Romans 8:2 shows Paul has been freed from that law by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

Oh, this is rich. If Paul was free from that law, there would be NO REASON to mention that there was "another law' in his 'members'. It wouldn't be necessary.

8:2 shows 7:21-23 were in the past.

Why don't you quote all the verses you cite and then explain HOW your opinion is true.

All you do is cite a verse or several and make a statement about them. Everyone has an opinion, of course. But proving one's opinion is quite another deal.

It sure does reveal a past situation, because Paul had already written of the "cure" for the "body of this of death" in Rom 6:6.

I'll quote the verse, since you don't bother.

6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Maybe you aren't unfamiliar with the subjunctive mood, the red words. It sure doesn't indicate reality; but only possibility.

And Rom 6:16 is as clear as it can be. The believer faces the moment by moment choice of whom to obey.

Verse 25, God, is the solution to the problem you won't rid yourself of.

I have no idea what you are babbling about.

Of course God has given us the solution to sin. When we sin, we are cleansed of that sin by confession of it. He also gave us the Holy Spirit, who powers us to live the Christian life. But ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship with the Lord and cleansed from his sins. Which none of this seems at all familiar to you. In spite of thorough explanations with verses to back it all up.

Crucify the flesh, bury it, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)

It's still a choice, my friend. Paul commands believers to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit. That sure ain't avoiding sin.

Romans 8:2 says you are wrong.

No it doesn't. See there? I just refuted your opinion. How about proving your claims and opinions with evidence. Citing a verse does nothing.

I've already seen how badly you are reading a number of verses. So I don't believe any of your opinions about what verses say or mean.

You can't even figure out what some verses SAY, much less what they mean.

All my "problems", weaknesses, addictions, and slavery to lusts, ended at my death with Christ.

Poppycock. So, you're the only person in history who achieved that, eh? I'd say that's a bit of arrogance, at least. Probably just more of a fantasy.

I walk in the light now...thanks be to God.

But this isn't automatic for all believers, right? I believe you've already acknowledged that. So, how comes you're the only one to achieve what no one else has? And your explanation of how you've done that is by your death with Christ.

Listen, Paul taught that ALL believers are identified with Christ in His death. But NOT all believers have had all their problems removed.

So, what's the difference? You smoking something that no one else has?

And it all started with a REAL, permanent, turn from sin.

Because of your death with Christ? Is that the reason? Or some other reason?

Because it's simply a FACT of life that Christians continue to have lots of problems. Which is why Paul and Peter had to admonish believers for their lifestyles.

God has enough grace to make it happen for you too.

It's difficult to follow your thought, since you claim you have never sinned since your baptism into the death of Christ.

But since all believers experience that, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

It just may be what you're smokin'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As they were with Paul, what false doctrine was he teaching?

It's sure obvious that you're not even close to following (comprehending) what I post. I never even suggested that Paul was teaching false doctrine.

If they ever believed once, they don't believe now.

Yes, Jesus even made that point, in Luke 8:13 with the second soil.

No sinner is a believer.

Every believer is STILL a sinner.

Had they been, their love and appreciation for God, plus all the armaments God gives His children, would have precluded sin.

You must be the most naive person in Christendom then, because it's obvious that believers continue to have problems post-salvation.

So, what's your opinion on that? That they didn't "really" believe"?

Not to mention that grape vines cannot bear figs as God's progeny cannot bear devilish fruit.

Here's another area you are ignorant of. Correct, God's "progeny" can't sin. And that specifically is the new nature. But you deny that the believer continues to struggle with his human nature, which STILL sins.

Why would an unbeliever refuse t take a mark that allows them to function in their society?

Not that you've noticed, but there are unbelievers who are moral people and have a strong sense of right and wrong. And I have no doubt that there will be unbelievers who will recognize the evil of the beast and want nothing to do with him and his system.

Do sinners "follow" Jesus?

Sure. All believers are sinners, regardless of your unbiblical opinions to the contrary.

I'll give you an example. Jesus told Peter "get behind Me, Satan!" Peter had been following Jesus for nearly 3 years by that time.

The followers of Christ and God are believers indeed, and their behavior testifies to it.

If that were true, then Paul would never have had to write 1 and 2 Corinthians. That church was VERY CARNAL. But maybe you've never read either epistle before.

Sinners are not believers.

You're a mess. All believers are sinners.

Rom 6:23..."For the wages of sin is death;..."
As those with eternal life will never die, the delineation between believer/non-sinner and unbeliever/sinner is illustrated with death.

OK. So, after throwing out this bit of total confusion, how come you don't bother to explain yourself. If you think what you say here is clear, you are quite confused.

It also describes sinners. No sinner will go to heaven.

Just another opinion without ANY verse that backs up your opinion.

But you keep dismissing the sins of the supposed "believers".

What do you mean by dismissing? Please explain.

Sinning means unbelief.

That's right. And believers fail to trust God in all kinds of things.

But it seems there is another verse that you are ignorant of.

Mark 9:24 - Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

How about your favorite, John 10:27-28?

Yeah, how about it? The single best verse on eternal security in the Bible.

Yet, your comment is in reference to my question:
"Please provide just 1 verse that says one is saved or goes to heaven by "following Jesus"."

Again, you demonstrate your failure to comprehend simple sentences. There is NOTHING in those 2 verses that conclude that "going to heaven is by following Jesus".

I am just amazed at your reading skills. Or lack thereof. v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what Jesus' sheep DO. How come you don't realize that very simple FACT?

And v.28 is as clear as can be. Those given eternal life shall never perish. It is that simple.

But you can't even read the verses correctly.

You are believing workers of iniquity?

What do you mean? I believe what the Bible says about them, and what the Bible says they say. So what's not to believe?

Please explain yourself. All you do is throw out questions and comments that don't make sense, or need explanation. You provide nothing.

I said:
"But they were just religious. They had form, but no substance.
Why did Jesus said the blue words, "I NEVER knew you".
Because they NEVER believed in Him.
Yes, they followed Him, and did great things IN HIS NAME. But it was all phony. Not that they were doing it consciously in a phony way, but they were depending on what THEY DID to get into the kingdom. That was their "faith".
What they NEVER did was to believe in Jesus for getting into the kingdom."

What they did was commit sin.

Why do you doubt what the Bible says they did? Do you not believe that unbelievers who are trusting in their own works can think that doing things in Jesus' name will get them into heaven??

Ever heard of the Pharisees?

They never repented of sin, nor did they ever have the faith to crucify and bury it at water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.

Let's be clear. The reason Jesus said "I NEVER knew you" was because they NEVER believed in Christ for salvation.

It is obvious by what they say that they think they will earn their way into heaven.

Haven't you ever met religious people, who even know some Bible phrases?

 

[JLB777]

Jesus SAID, in PLAIN WORDS, that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish.

Simple, straightforward statement about eternal security.

From the MOMENT one believes in Him for salvation, He gives THEM eternal life, and He SAYS they shall never perish.

But you go forth BOLDLY claiming something the exact opposite of what Jesus SAID.

You believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. He said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It is clear that you don't know the difference bettween CAN and NEVER.

btw, NEVER means CAN'T. Therefore, believers CAN'T perish. That's what "shall never" means in words that you should be able to understand.

Your views are so conflicted that you have been blinded to that fact.

Yes, those who receive or inherit eternal life at the end of a faithful life of hearing and following the Lord, will never perish.


Do you believe those who start out hearing and following Him, then fall away from Him, and go back to serving other gods, will also receive eternal life?

Here are those who receive eternal life, at the resurrection of life.


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[Phil W]

If it was literal, you'd also have "holes". But you don't.

I was baptized into Jesus while He was on the cross.
He took the punishment, not me.

Your "immersion" into Him is the baptism (identification) of the Holy Spirit, which seals the believer and GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Not according to Romans 6:3-6.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is in response to our turn from sin. (Acts 2:38)

Propensity doesn't = guaranteed action.

As the flesh, with the affections and lusts has been killed, (Gal 5:24), there is no recourse but obedience to God.
Unless I want to quit calling myself a Christian, believer, saved, or sanctified and justified.

No it's not. You're just twisting Scripture to fit your opinions. It's ALL in the present tense, not your fantasy of the historical present.
in fact, the historical present is the only way you justify your unbiblical opinion. But you can't prove the chapter is in that tense.

Why don't you believe Rom 6:6 and Rom 8:2?

If Paul was free from that law, (Mosaic Law), there would be NO REASON to mention that there was "another law', (law of sin) in his 'members'. It wouldn't be necessary.

Why?

I'll quote the verse, since you don't bother.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
Maybe you aren't unfamiliar with the subjunctive mood, the red words. It sure doesn't indicate reality; but only possibility.

The "possibility" is reality to believers who want nothing more than to love God above all else and their neighbor as themselves.
And having killed the old man, self service in no longer an option.

And Rom 6:16 is as clear as it can be. The believer faces the moment by moment choice of whom to obey.

Thanks be to God we can make the correct choice every time!

Of course God has given us the solution to sin. When we sin, we are cleansed of that sin by confession of it. He also gave us the Holy Spirit, who powers us to live the Christian life. But ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship with the Lord and cleansed from his sins. Which none of this seems at all familiar to you. In spite of thorough explanations with verses to back it all up.

Of course it isn't familiar to me.
I have gracefully been shown that the old man was killed at water baptism, with the affections and lusts.
Now enabled to walk in the light/God, I have no reason to ever be out of fellowship with God.
The idea of sinning saints isn't of God...so I can't grasp the concept.

It's still a choice, my friend. Paul commands believers to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit. That sure ain't avoiding sin.

It is if you love God enough to obey him.
But I realize that your brand of believer doesn't need to love God.

No it doesn't. See there? I just refuted your opinion. How about proving your claims and opinions with evidence. Citing a verse does nothing.

I didn't offer an opinion, I just cited what the bible says about the "law of sin" which you assert is still in Paul.
He was freed from it by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, those who receive or inherit eternal life at the end of a faithful life of hearing and following the Lord, will never perish.

The Bible disagrees with your opinion. Upon believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, the Lord Himself gives the gift of eternal life to the believer, and says that they shall never perish.

WHEN eternal life is given:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Promise to recipients of eternal life about never perishing.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Do you believe those who start out hearing and following Him, then fall away from Him, and go back to serving other gods, will also receive eternal life?

I believe exactly what Jesus taught.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

Why don't you?

Here are those who receive eternal life, at the resurrection of life.

I've already given 4 verses that PROVE that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes, so your opinion about being given "at the resurrection of life" is way off base.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

This isn't about when the gift is given, but when the first resurrection takes place.

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

That's right. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:5,6

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was baptized into Jesus while He was on the cross.

No you weren't.

He took the punishment, not me.

Yes He did.

Not according to Romans 6:3-6.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is in response to our turn from sin. (Acts 2:38)

No it's not. And Acts 2:38 was SPECIFICALLY for those Jews who had literally taken part in Christ's crucifixion.

As the flesh, with the affections and lusts has been killed, (Gal 5:24), there is no recourse but obedience to God.

Your robot and/or puppet theology has no place in Christianity. Paul continued to struggle against his sin nature.

Unless I want to quit calling myself a Christian, believer, saved, or sanctified and justified.

You may want to, since your views are NOT backed up with Scripture.

Why don't you believe Rom 6:6 and Rom 8:2?

Rom 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Rom 8:2 - because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Of course I believe these verses. I don't believe your opinion and faulty translation of them.

And, again, being free from the law of sin means to be free from the penalty of sin/death.

I asked:
"If Paul was free from that law, (Mosaic Law), there would be NO REASON to mention that there was "another law', (law of sin) in his 'members'. It wouldn't be necessary."

Why?

It should be obvious. Paul was saying that he was NOT FREE from that "other law", which is the law of sin, that was in his members (body).

The "possibility" is reality to believers who want nothing more than to love God above all else and their neighbor as themselves.

Of course you know that the first commandment is just that. And God gave the commandments to prove that mankind is unable to keep the law. Which is why Paul wrote Gal 3.

And having killed the old man, self service in no longer an option.

I'll have none of your robotic/puppetry kind of theology.

If this were true, then ALL believers would never have any problems. And that is totally refuted by reality.

Thanks be to God we can make the correct choice every time!

I never said we can't make the correct choice every time.

I said we DON'T make the correct choice every time. Sometimes, hardly every time.

I said:
"Of course God has given us the solution to sin. When we sin, we are cleansed of that sin by confession of it. He also gave us the Holy Spirit, who powers us to live the Christian life. But ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship with the Lord and cleansed from his sins. Which none of this seems at all familiar to you. In spite of thorough explanations with verses to back it all up."

Of course it isn't familiar to me.

You got that right!! Your unbiblical notions are that true believers never sin, and all who sin are not believers. That isn't even close to what the Bible teaches.

I have gracefully been shown that the old man was killed at water baptism, with the affections and lusts.

Once again, water baptism is just a SYMBOL of the baptism that DOES save the believer. This is the Holy Spirit which I've proved from Cornelius's example.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

The red words PROVE that your opinion on water baptism is all wet. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves, not getting wet in a tank, river, lake or ocean.

Now enabled to walk in the light/God, I have no reason to ever be out of fellowship with God.

Au contraire. Sin keeps you from fellowship. You may have ceased all immoral type of sins, but have you ever considered attitude sins, arrogance, jealousy, anger, etc??

The idea of sinning saints isn't of God...so I can't grasp the concept.

True. You cannot grasp the reality of sin.

It is if you love God enough to obey him.

Remember that the Law was given to PROVE that man cannot keep the Law and to lead people to Christ. Gal 3.

But I realize that your brand of believer doesn't need to love God.

Again, your opinion is quite wrong.

Another verse that you will have no idea what it means or speaks to:

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

If your opinion was correct, Paul would NOT have stated this verse subjunctive mood:

"MAY the grace/love/fellowship be with you all"

If your opinion was true, he would have stated it in the indicative mood; the mood of reality.

I didn't offer an opinion, I just cited what the bible says about the "law of sin" which you assert is still in Paul.

Yes, you have offered your opinions a lot.

And I have asserted nothing. The assertion comes from the Bible. I just point it out.

He was freed from it by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Yes, again, Paul was freed from it (penalty of sin) by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

It appears that many believe they are saved but, are probably deceived?

Some think they can sin like there is no tomorrow and it's all OK.

While others are called to repentance daily.

Examine yourselves and finish the good race.



M-Bob

 

[FreeGrace2]

It appears that many believe they are saved but, are probably deceived?

No doubt. Esp those who think their own lifestyles play a part in getting into heaven.

Just like the crowd Jesus spoke about in Matt 7:21-23.

Some think they can sin like there is no tomorrow and it's all OK.

Unfortunately, those idiots haven't been taught the biblical doctrine of divine discipline, which, btw, is said to be painful, per Heb 12:11.

So it ain't "OK" to sin like there is no tomorrow. There will be painful discipline.

But for some reason, most of the Arminians I encounter have this distorted view that OSAS "teaches that sin is OK". It doesn't, because sin isn't OK.

 

[Phil W]

No you weren't.

Why don't you believe Paul's teaching in Romans 6:3-7?
I'm a believer.

No it's not. And Acts 2:38 was SPECIFICALLY for those Jews who had literally taken part in Christ's crucifixion.

If you want to deny it is for every believer, doesn't that make you an unbeliever?
The gift of the Holy Spirit was granted to the Samaritans, Paul, the twelve at Ephesus, and
Cornelius after repentance from sin.
All of these folks were also baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
All according to the teachings of Peter in Acts 2:38.

Your robot and/or puppet theology has no place in Christianity. Paul continued to struggle against his sin nature.

Then Romans 6:3-6 was a lie, and so is 2 Cor 5:17.
And 1 Peter 4:1 also.

You may want to, since your views are NOT backed up with Scripture.

They most surely are backed up by God's word.[/QUOTE]

Rom 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

"Old self" includes old nature.
And those freed from sin are dead to sin. (Rom 6:7)

Rom 8:2 - because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Isn't the "law of sin" what Paul lamented in his remembrance of his past life in the flesh...in Rom 7:23?
More proof that it was a past time because he is now free of the law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Praise be to God!

And, again, being free from the law of sin means to be free from the penalty of sin/death.

Everyone freed from sin is freed from the penalty.

I asked:
"If Paul was free from that law, (Mosaic Law), there would be NO REASON to mention that there was "another law', (law of sin) in his 'members'. It wouldn't be necessary."

Why not?
As the Mosaic Law was what Paul struggled unsuccessfully to follow, in his mind, as a Jew, it was the "law of sin" in his members that caused the struggle.
The freedom from the law of sin enabled him to conform to the heart of the Mosaic Law. (Love God above all else and neighbor as self.)

It should be obvious. Paul was saying that he was NOT FREE from that "other law", which is the law of sin, that was in his members (body).

That goes counter to what is written in Rom 8:2.

Of course you know that the first commandment is just that. And God gave the commandments to prove that mankind is unable to keep the law. Which is why Paul wrote Gal 3.

Would it make sense to leave us in the same situation after Christ lived sinlessly, died, and was raised again?
He kept the law, and in Him we can too. (The law of Christ)

I'll have none of your robotic/puppetry kind of theology.

Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Are fig trees 'robotic'?

If this were true, then ALL believers would never have any problems. And that is totally refuted by reality.

The reality you so clearly see is unbelievers leaving Christ.

I never said we can't make the correct choice every time.
I said we DON'T make the correct choice every time. Sometimes, hardly every time.

Now that we can be "in Christ" we can make the right choices all the time.
But you gotta' be "in Christ".

I said:
"Of course God has given us the solution to sin. When we sin, we are cleansed of that sin by confession of it. He also gave us the Holy Spirit, who powers us to live the Christian life. But ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship with the Lord and cleansed from his sins. Which none of this seems at all familiar to you. In spite of thorough explanations with verses to back it all up."

That isn't a solution to sin.
It is a license to commit as many sins as you want.
One "turn from" sin means no more sin.
Those depending on weekly confessions are fooling themselves into hell.
Walk in the light/God and quit committing sin permanently.

You got that right!! Your unbiblical notions are that true believers never sin, and all who sin are not believers. That isn't even close to what the Bible teaches.

Then Jesus was only fooling us when He said..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
And Peter was lying when he wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
And Paul was just kidding when he wrote..."For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
And
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
And
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
And
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
And
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
And
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
And
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
And
" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
And
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
And
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
And
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
I'll adhere to the doctrine which is according to Godliness. (1 Tim 6:3)

Once again, water baptism is just a SYMBOL of the baptism that DOES save the believer. This is the Holy Spirit which I've proved from Cornelius's example.

To believers, it isn't just a symbol.
It is the reality of our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ as new creatures.

Au contraire. Sin keeps you from fellowship. You may have ceased all immoral type of sins, but have you ever considered attitude sins, arrogance, jealousy, anger, etc??

Are not those 'immoral' too?
Sin keeps you from God, and that means believers who love God above all else, will never commit sin.
Anything less is idolatry, and no idolaters will be going to heaven.

True. You cannot grasp the reality of sin.

Aren't you countering yourself there?

Remember that the Law was given to PROVE that man cannot keep the Law and to lead people to Christ. Gal 3.

Not in the flesh, we can't.
But by repentance from sin, rebirth, etc. we can now walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Thanks be to God!

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
If your opinion was correct, Paul would NOT have stated this verse subjunctive mood:

You don't think his 'wish' can be granted?

"MAY the grace/love/fellowship be with you all"

Amen...I agree with his prayer for our continuing fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
Don't you?

If your opinion was true, he would have stated it in the indicative mood; the mood of reality.

I'm beginning to think you just don't want fellowship with God.
Folks out of fellowship with God, sinners, will not be granted eternal life on the day of judgement.
Their belief will have been found to be false.

Yes, again, Paul was freed from it (penalty of sin) by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

Why do you keep adding words to what is written?
I think there are warnings in the bible against that.

 

[Phil W]

It appears that many believe they are saved but, are probably deceived?

Some think they can sin like there is no tomorrow and it's all OK.

While others are called to repentance daily.

Examine yourselves and finish the good race.
M-Bob

Some folks' repentance from sin is true, and they never sin again.

 

[JLB777]

The Bible disagrees with your opinion. Upon believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, the Lord Himself gives the gift of eternal life to the believer, and says that they shall never perish.

WHEN eternal life is given:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Promise to recipients of eternal life about never perishing.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.


I believe exactly what Jesus taught.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

Why don't you?


I've already given 4 verses that PROVE that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes, so your opinion about being given "at the resurrection of life" is way off base.


This isn't about when the gift is given, but when the first resurrection takes place.


That's right. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:5,6

Jesus admonished us to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why don't you believe Paul's teaching in Romans 6:3-7?

How silly. Of course I do.

I'm beginning to think you just don't want fellowship with God.

How silly. That's EXACTLY what believers NEED to understand regarding HOW TO BE in fellowship with God.

Folks out of fellowship with God, sinners, will not be granted eternal life on the day of judgement.

You are confusing the difference between fellowship and relationship by your statement here.

Do you really not understand the difference between a marriage and fellowship in a marriage?

So, I'll explain it. A marriage is a relationship. Fellowship is the STATE of the relationship. Many marriages have NO fellowship in that relationship.

Or, we could use the example of parent and child. That is a permanent relationship. But fellowship between parent and child isn't in any way guaranteed.

And the Bible uses words of both examples to express our relationship with God as His children and Bride of His Son. These are permanent relationships. And both relationships NEED to have fellowship, which isn't guaranteed in any sense.

I said this:
"Yes, again, Paul was freed from it (penalty of sin) by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ."

Why do you keep adding words to what is written?

So you don't recognize the difference between adding words and EXPLAINING words, huh.

Salvation is presented in Scripture in 3 tenses.

Past tense salvation: the believer has been saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense salvation: the believer is being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense salvation: the beliver will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

Not until you enter eternity will you be saved from the presence of sin in your own life.

But maybe you want to argue that you have already been glorified. Is that it.

We are justified from our sin (freed from the penalty) at the moment of salvation.

We are being sanctified during this life as we learn more and more to be in fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit.

We will be glorified when we enter eternity. Not a second before.

I think there are warnings in the bible against that.

There are warnings against rejection of clear and plain Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some folks' repentance from sin is true, and they never sin again.

How come the apostle Paul never said that? Or indicated that he had achieved that state?

Rather, he spoke/wrote in the PRESENT TENSE about his own sin. Romans 6, 7, and 1 Tim 1:15.

But, it seems you think of yourself as better than the apostle Paul.

Yeah, sure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus admonished us to remain in Him.

You're just having a very hard time rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

When a person believes in Christ, they are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT which GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eph 1:13,14-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption as God's possession.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This proves from Scripture that your attempt to equate "remain" and "abide" is false and unbiblical.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Using a figure of speech (metaphor) is THE POOREST way to argue a point of Scripture.

Jesus used metaphors to keep people confused. To hear the truth without understanding what they were hearing. That's NO way to teach truth. Even Jesus didn't do that.

He always took His disciples aside after preaching by parables (metaphors) to explain the truth to them. Because EVEN they didn't understand the parables.

And it's clear that you don't understand His parables and metaphors either.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

We are NOT instructed to remain in Christ. Once we have believed, we ARE SEALED IN HIM with the Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

To abide in Christ is an expression of being IN fellowship with Him, a concept that you have shown to be in total ignorance of.

 

[JLB777]

You're just having a very hard time rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

When a person believes in Christ, they are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT which GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eph 1:13,14-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption as God's possession.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This proves from Scripture that your attempt to equate "remain" and "abide" is false and unbiblical.


Using a figure of speech (metaphor) is THE POOREST way to argue a point of Scripture.

Jesus used metaphors to keep people confused. To hear the truth without understanding what they were hearing. That's NO way to teach truth. Even Jesus didn't do that.

He always took His disciples aside after preaching by parables (metaphors) to explain the truth to them. Because EVEN they didn't understand the parables.

And it's clear that you don't understand His parables and metaphors either.


We are NOT instructed to remain in Christ. Once we have believed, we ARE SEALED IN HIM with the Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.


To abide in Christ is an expression of being IN fellowship with Him, a concept that you have shown to be in total ignorance of.

This is as straightforward as it gets, which is what rightly divide means.


I know it’s hard for you to explain away the truth of Jesus Christ, so you have to make up lies about me.


Jesus teaches His people that we must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


Here it is straight from Jesus Christ -

Notice this is not a metaphor, but direct speech -


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Anyone, them and they refer to people.


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain in Christ-

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB