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my wife and I were missionaries and we started an organization to raise money for Christian missions and toured the world in a Christian band. After ten years of marriage she abandoned me and walked completely away from God. She now claims to not believe in God. Was she faking being a Christian for 25 years? We’re the missions trips all over the world pretend? Was she lying then or is she lying now? I used to believe in once saved always saved and then my wife lost her salvation before my eyes.
That is my prayer.
1 John 2:16, parable of the seeds, John 15, and others are a concern.
But the word says no one can snatch them out of his hands!
Huh? Don't you believe that Christ is your Savior?? Don't you believe that those He gives eternal life shall never perish? John 10:28 says exactly that.So because you believe Christ is The Saviour, that gives you license to murder and desecrate a church, unrepentantly.
How does Eph 2:8,9 and John 10:28 equal "weird theology"?? Please explain. Thanks.Weird Theology...
Amen!! Yet, by grace those who have put their trust in the work of Christ alone are given eternal life and shall never perish.No my friend. We are all unworthy sinners until the day we die...
Is there a verse that says this? Please share. Otherwise, this is just your opinion.People receive eternal life by being in Christ.
Again, refuted by Scripture itself.Those who are “in Christ” but do not remain “in Christ” no longer have the eternal life they once had when they were “in Christ”.
The verses above prove that Scripture does NOT teach anyone how to "remain in Christ". Our sealing is by the Holy Spirit, and no one is stronger than the Spirit, and no one can break this "seal".Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain “in Christ”.
If salvation "can be lost", then why did Jesus tell us that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish? John 10:28Of course Salvation can be lost as even people who accept Christ as our Saviour, we continue to sin and have our human imperfections.
Now, that much is quite true!!Your (Phil W) claim to being perfect is a folly. A dangerous one too...
The Greek word means maturity, completion, as in spiritually mature.I don't know why you think that.
Jesus commanded our perfection in Matt 5:48.
This isn't a matter of extremes, just one or the other, as you seem to think.Can you find one verse that says we will be slaves to sin for all our NT lives?
No.my wife and I were missionaries and we started an organization to raise money for Christian missions and toured the world in a Christian band. After ten years of marriage she abandoned me and walked completely away from God. She now claims to not believe in God. Was she faking being a Christian for 25 years?
No.We’re the missions trips all over the world pretend?
Neither.Was she lying then or is she lying now?
Did you see her her eternal life leave her? Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. If she had eternal life (was saved) and doesn't have eternal life now, then what Jesus said cannot be true.I used to believe in once saved always saved and then my wife lost her salvation before my eyes.
She was STILL Jesus' sheep. She STILL possessed eternal life. Therefore, she shall never perish. Because Jesus said so.No. She was saved, The she wandered away from Christ, and became lost.
Eternal security sure is.This is plainly taught in the Bible; The prodigal son. The lost sheep.
Why did you leave out one "descriptor" of the word "perfect"?The Greek word means maturity, completion, as in spiritually mature.
[QUOTEPeter writes of it in 1Peter 4:1 and 2Peter 1:10.
As does Paul in 1Cor 15:34 and 2Tim 2:19.
John writes of it in 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18.
Same word, and same meaning.
Ping-pong righteousness.This isn't a matter of extremes, just one or the other, as you seem to think.
It's a moment by moment thing. Any time a believer "presents him/herself to sin" is a slave to sin.
If those that disobey the exhortations of the Lord's prophets are believers, then they also know they are not of God.Rom 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
And previous to this verse is v.12-13-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
These are choices the believer makes.
That's how the Greek word is translated. I've already been all through the proof from Romans 6-7 that man STILL possesses his sinful nature, and is therefore NEVER perfect. Adam was perfect until he rebelled and ate the fruit. Then his human nature was corrupted, and the result was immediate spiritual death and the process of physical death.Why did you leave out one "descriptor" of the word "perfect"?
That word was ...PERFECT.
Correct. Even believers can serve sin. Obviously. Not that they should.Jesus said who soever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)
Again, correct.Jesus said that no man can serve two masters. (Matt 6:24)
Or, more probably, love sin more than they love God. Remember, when the Bible speaks of "hating one's parents" it is in comparison with loving God. The Bible NEVER orders or even suggests that anyone hate their parents.Those who serve sin hate God.
Correct. They are "not of God" in the clear sense that they are not following Him.If those that disobey the exhortations of the Lord's prophets are believers, then they know they are not of God.
Your POV denies the truth of 2 Cor 5:17.That's how the Greek word is translated. I've already been all through the proof from Romans 6-7 that man STILL possesses his sinful nature, and is therefore NEVER perfect. Adam was perfect until he rebelled and ate the fruit. Then his human nature was corrupted, and the result was immediate spiritual death and the process of physical death.
They aren't believing what Jesus said about freedom from committing sin.Correct. Even believers can serve sin. Obviously. Not that they should.
I'll go with What Jesus said instead of what you find "probable".Or, more probably, love sin more than they love God.
"In a sense"?Correct. They are "not of God" in the clear sense that they are not following Him.
No, it doesn't prove any such thing.But remember that Romans 6-7 proves that all humans retain their sinful nature until death, when their soul/spirit is separated from their body.
My POV does not deny that truth. I've explained it thoroughly. The new birth gives the believer another nature, a spiritual nature. You have not proven otherwise.Your POV denies the truth of 2 Cor 5:17.
"...old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new."
Or just rebelling against what He said.They aren't believing what Jesus said about freedom from committing sin.
Yes, some saved people cease to believe. Jesus said so in Luke 8:13.They are actually disbelievers.
Where did I say "probable"? Sin is obviously possible. Otherwise, all the commands to be holy and perfect are rendered irrelevant. Is that your argument?I'll go with What Jesus said instead of what you find "probable".
Please back up your claim with Scripture.If they don't follow Him they are not His.
Actually, it's v.28 that is my favorite verse on eternal security. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Not anything about HOW they become sheep.Your favorite John 10:27 makes that clear.
And claims don't prove anything either. You need a verse to prove your claims. As I have.No, it doesn't prove any such thing.
All I can do is post the scripture you keep denying...My POV does not deny that truth. I've explained it thoroughly. The new birth gives the believer another nature, a spiritual nature. You have not proven otherwise.
And, once again, all I can do is DENY your false claim that I deny 2 Cor 5:17.All I can do is post the scripture you keep denying...
Is there a verse that says this? Please share. Otherwise, this is just your opinion.
Scripture says this:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. The word "has" is in the present tense.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Ditto.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
iow, it is by the work of Christ, by giving eternal life to believers, that they shall never perish.
Again, refuted by Scripture itself.
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Can you explain how a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is STILL sealed for the day of redemption? And note the verse doesn't say "the day of judgment".
The verses above prove that Scripture does NOT teach anyone how to "remain in Christ". Our sealing is by the Holy Spirit, and no one is stronger than the Spirit, and no one can break this "seal".
Again, how can someone who has been given eternal life PERISH when Jesus was as clear as possible in John 10:28 when He said:Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
How can a brother hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?
JLB
One must always consider the whole counsel of God when trying to interpret any single verse. There are many verses to believers that speak of the sin nature and how to deal with it. Why do you deny all those verses?[/QUOTE]And, once again, all I can do is DENY your false claim that I deny 2 Cor 5:17.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
You retain some of the old.
That is unbiblical.
How did the old nature remain, if the body and soul are made new?Here's how to understand 2 Cor 5:17:
The "old things" is the dichotomous person; body and soul. The "new things" is the trichotomous person; body, soul and spirit.
It's the born again human spirit that can't sin. If born again sinners no longer have their human sinful nature, there would be no need of any warnings about behavior or commands to stop sinning. Yet, there ARE warnings about behavior and commands to stop sinning.
All of which refutes your view.
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