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I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.Judas lost his salvation i would have thought.
By your reasoning then, every convert to Godliness was still an idolater, murderer, thief, adulterer, liar, stingy, self serving, revenge seeking, faithless, hater of God, and every other thing we are exhorted not to be.But it certainly CAN mean that. If a parent catches their teen smoking, and says, "don't smoke", it's obvious that they WERE smoking.
otoh, if Paul had written "don't START grieving/quenching the Spirit", you'd maybe have a point.
Because Jesus said the truth would free you from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)Why would I be scared to defend the truth of Scripture?
You seem to infer that believers MUST commit sin. Just so they can be cleansed by the blood of Christ again.I have proven from Scripture that believers NEED to confess their sins in order to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord, from 1 John 1. That's the purpose of confession; to cleanse the believer from their sins.
I am not interested in "walking in the flesh" doctrine.Just as it was NECESSARY in Jesus' day to wash the feet of people before entering houses, since animal feces were on them. John 13. Jesus even emphasized the point that Peter WAS CLEAN (saved) but in order to "have a part with Me" he needed his feet cleaned.
I've already been through this, but it's becoming clear to me that you just aren't interested.
Jesus left us two laws.Yes they DO, and you are exactly right.
Got that right, but in the day of judgement I will be with the sheep that know their shepherds voice...and follow it.Your self evaluated opinion of yourself means nothing at all.
The "self-righteous" are they who don't submit to God and His righteousness.Just ask any hyper-self-righteous person how good they are. And they'll tell you.
It isn't a Christian doctrine, as 2 Cor 5:17 refutes it.The fact that truly born again people have received a new nature and that that nature will co exist along side their old nature until we are glorified is one of the most basic N.T. doctrines. Those who don't understand that or ignore it or twist it will fall into a theological ditch of some kind.
Some just prefer to serve sin instead of God.Happily - I have that mind of Christ the Lord promised us.
That mind sure seems to be grieved or perhaps even (God forbid) missing in some people here in the Forum.
Thanks for participating.I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.
Christians do sin and we all need to worry about Christ's judgment.Thanks for participating.
Do you think a man who sins is of God?
Or do you think a man who offends God doesn't need to worry about eternal judgment?
How's that?It isn't a Christian doctrine, as 2 Cor 5:17 refutes it.
Examples?Some just prefer to serve sin instead of God.
I warned that this thread was going to be like the others, 28 pages already and I think no one has changed their minds.
No it wasn't, I was venting.
No, did you read my post at the beginning of this page.
As Christians are "in Christ", and there is no sin in Christ, your POV has no basis.Christians do sin and we all need to worry about Christ's judgment.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."How's that?
Examples?
Maybe a better system of proof-reading your posts before hitting the "reply" button would solve these issues.More proof you don't actually read what I wrote. I said you twist my words and scripture. I never said you did anything with these verses.
Yes, that was my claim. But since you disagree, then just please provide the specific verse that does SAY that salvation can be lost.Your go to verse as I recall was in John 6, which you claim says no one ever loses salvation. In the same chapter, it is clear that salvation depends on ongoing belief.
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Again, where do you get the notion that this verse teaches ongoing belief for salvation??40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life...
Salvation is conditional on ongoing belief.
Amen!!The fact that truly born again people have received a new nature and that that nature will co exist along side their old nature until we are glorified is one of the most basic N.T. doctrines. Those who don't understand that or ignore it or twist it will fall into a theological ditch of some kind.
The two natures war against one another and we make choices every day concerning following one nature vs. the other nature.
Those things done while on earth that favor the new nature will remain after the Judgment Seat of Christ and those that favor the old nature will be burned up like so much wood, hay and stubble - while the opposite will somehow shine like precious jewels.
All believers as blood bought children of God will be happy with what is left (at least after every tear that will be shed at judgment time is wiped away by the Lord. But we will suffer great loss for those things we have chosen to do in the flesh rather than the Spirit.
When the scriptures warn of judgment (cast aside, burned, annihilated or whatever else people see concerning the judgment of our wicked works) they are talking about the old nature which was crucified with Christ.
But the new man is saved forever and will never again come into condemnation. Some people's new man will be a bit pathetic compared to others. But, again, after the tears of sorrow for things done in this life and not done in this life are wiped away by the lord - everyone will be very happy with his new life.
After all - our crowns are only for the purpose of casting at the feet of the Lord to bring Him glory and not for our own glory. I for one want all the crowns I can muster to bring Him glory.
Why these basic truths (however crudely they have been outlined here) can't be understood by some in this forum - I really don't know for sure.
For some it's probably just misunderstanding.
For others it may be because they consider their good works as efficacious toward their justification before God as opposed to the work of the Lord only.
Some may even point to those works when they see Him face to face and hear the dreaded words "I never knew you".
Hopefully others will simply be corrected on the wrong teaching they put out while in the flesh. They will suffer loss at that time and yet they will be saved - "and yet so as by fire".
Only the Lord knows for sure who are the false teachers here and those who are simply mistaken - albeit with good motives.
God will sort us all out in the end.
But I wouldn't trade my religion of salvation by grace through faith for all the works oriented teachings in all the world.
The stakes are just too high for me to rely on what God calls filthy rags in any way to commend me to the perfect One.
I don't believe that eternal security vs. the judgment of our lives is exactly spiritual rocket surgery - at least for those who believe in salvation by grace.
This seems sort of like "evangelical Christianity 101" - that is, for those who look at the scriptures in a balance and systematic way as they should.
Of course there will always be those who like to just choose one side of a theological equation and go to war. "For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?".-
Happily - I have that mind of Christ the Lord promised us.
That mind sure seems to be grieved or perhaps even (God forbid) missing in some people here in the Forum.
If we walk in the light, as God is in the light, we have communism one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."- 1 John 1:So, what's your sources say?
No, you are the one who claims that believers don't sin, and therefore, only unbelievers are sinners. Yet Paul stated in the clearest of terms that He was the worst of sinners, and he used the PRESENT TENSE, in 1 Tim 1:15.As you have already stipulated that sinners are not believers,
This is evidence that you don't understand your history. The ENTIRE Jewish nation was under the thumb of Rome.In a sense, true, but if Jesus was a slave of Rome, where is the evidence?
Doesn't change the FACT that they were in charge over the Jews.Rome occupied the lands, and exacted taxes, and were quite cruel at times. But they also allowed certain freedoms too.
How do you know what 'slaves of sin' aren't allowed? Please support your opinions from Scripture.Slaves of sin are not allowed that freedom.
No, I showed that the mention of sin was not relevant to freedom or slavery.You said there was no mention of sin in John 8:32-34...but changed your mind.
No, I don't.You seem to think Jesus' baptism replaced John's.
I've already shown that literal wet water baptism does NOT save anyone, from 1 Pet 3:20-21.It didn't, but was modified so our water baptism for the remission of sins is done "in the name of Jesus Christ".
More than half of the 29 English translations on 'bible hub.com' use "through". Do some research on what the Greek word "di" means in the Greek. You'll find it means "through".Except that Peter didn't say "through water".
It is written..."Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:20-21)
Do some research on it, ok?It may be your version of the bible that denies the need for baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), but mine makes it perfectly clear that by our partaking in Christ's resurrection, post death and burial, we can be not only washed from our past sins by the blood of Christ, but also kill the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...with a clean conscience towards God. (Rom 6:3-7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
I sure have. We get in Christ WHEN we believe, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.You keep mentioning faith in Christ but neglect to say how we get "in Christ".
Sheesh! As I pointed out already, the laying on of hands was TEMPORARY during the transition to the church age, and only for Gentiles. By Acts 10, laying on of hands wasn't needed.Because salvation isn't by faith alone if we can't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands.
What do you want me to tell the 12 at Ephesus? It appears from the text that they were disciples of John, and not Jesus. When Paul evangelized them, they were baptized in the name of Jesus and then Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. So even being "baptized in the name of Jesus" DIDN'T result in receiving the Spirit.Tell that to the twelve at Ephesus.
You need to get out more. There's loads of unsaved people, who, like the Pharisees in Jesus' day, think they can earn their salvation by doing good.Unbelievers don't serve God, as they can only serve one master...and they prefer sin.
I'm glad you used that word 'perish'. Since I have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation, and rejected my own works to save me, He gave me the gift of eternal life.Cling to that lie and you will perish.
Depends on the object of said faith. What did you have in mind?You doubt the power of faith?
I not only believe all of these verses, plus EVERY verse in the Bible, but I properly understand each of them, unlike yourself.Then you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17. Or Rom 6:3-7. Or Gal 5:24.
He never had salvation.Judas lost his salvation i would have thought.
Why not just give up the flesh altogether?In the sense most think of losing salvation, I agree: you can not be sent to hell after receiving the Holy Spirit, as we have been told He will never leave us. IMO, the Holy Spirit is how/where we are grafted into Christ. As in, we are literally spiritually attached to Him now. Everything we need to function as Christ wants, we receive at initial salvation: we get the Holy Spirit, all the fruits of the spirit (which are from God's character, not our own human character), etc.
However, we can chose not to use the grace/fruits and ignore the Holy Spirit after we are saved. We are instructed to work out our salvation, which means we already have it, but are responsible for allowing our teacher, the Holy Spirit, to reveal to us how to use all the things we have been given, (so it can flow out of us and into the world). We really are like jars filled with oil, unless we "harden our hearts", which will cause us to stop being "light and salt". However, we still won't be sent to hell, we'll just be deeply ashamed of our rebellion and refusal to listen to the Holy Spirit.
IMO, most of the post-salvation Christian life is learning how to stop trying in our own flesh, and allow the salvation God has given us to function in its place. This is actually quite hard, and requires denying yourself to achieve.
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