saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Philothei]

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

I understand. So, you have equal and full embrace of the EOC as you do of the LDS, of St. Ignatius and Joseph Smith. I'm not sure I agree with you, but I give you points for consistency.
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Is it true that some Lutherans pray for the saint's intercession?

 

[Bryne]

Is it true that some Lutherans pray for the saint's intercession?

I cannot speak for every individual Lutheran...however, we are not supposed to pray for the saint's intercession.


"...the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1: If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc. "

Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

 

[Thekla]

Originally Posted by Dorothea

I don't know. I think the same way as you. I believe all are Christians, and I take their word for it. I'm not skeptical or suspicious about it. I just believe them. Call me naive.

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I understand. So, you have equal and full embrace of the EOC as you do of the LDS, of St. Ignatius and Joseph Smith. I'm not sure I agree with you, but I give you points for consistency.

leap, or ten-league boots ?

 

[Philothei]

intercession of the saints lutherans - Yahoo! Video Search

intercession of the saints lutherans - Yahoo! Video Search
intercession of the saints lutherans - Yahoo! Video Search

It seems some indeed believe though..Some videos there are truly cool !!


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfhe6x_intercession-of-the-saints_people

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Is it true that some Lutherans pray for the saint's intercession?

I don't know. Is it true that some Lutherans are nudist? That some won't drink coffee? That some always buy Fords and don't consider Toyotas? I honestly don't know.


But the issue before us is this, it seems to me: What is the evidence that upon death, as souls ascend into heaven, their ears undergo an evolutionary leap so that their sense of hearing can now detect the prayers of all 2 billion or so believers (even if all at the same time, even if unspoken) and ERGO they pass on all these specific, particular petitions to the Father who ERGO is more likely to respond to them in a way the believer desires, especially if such a soul is the patron saint of the believer's job? The issue is not "Do some people pray to the saints?" I don't think that's an issue in dispute.






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[Thekla]

But the issue before us is this, it seems to me: What is the evidence that upon death, as souls ascend into heaven, their ears undergo an evolutionary leap so that their sense of hearing can now detect the prayers of all 2 billion or so believers (even if all at the same time, even if unspoken) and ERGO they pass on all these specific, particular petitions to the Father who ERGO is more likely to respond to them in a way the believer desires, especially if such a soul is the patron saint of the believer's job? The issue is not "Do some people pray to the saints?" I don't think that's an issue in dispute.

So Christ was speaking of the physical act of hearing when He said, "he who has ears ... let him hear" ?

 

[Philothei]

I don't know. Is it true that some Lutherans are nudist? That some won't drink coffee? That some always buy Fords and don't consider Toyotas? I honestly don't know.


But the issue before us is this, it seems to me: What is the evidence that upon death, as souls ascend into heaven, their ears undergo an evolutionary leap so that their sense of hearing can now detect the prayers of all 2 billion or so believers (even if all at the same time, even if unspoken) and ERGO they pass on all these specific, particular petitions to the Father who ERGO is more likely to respond to them in a way the believer desires, especially if such a soul is the patron saint of the believer's job? The issue is not "Do some people pray to the saints?" I don't think that's an issue in dispute.






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Toyotas? Yeah great cars...Still the fact remains how do you feel about some believing in the intercession?



what about some say "He slept in the Lord" ...what sleeping in the Lord means?

 

[Thekla]

Using the Toyota to drive away from the issue under discussion ...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Toyotas? Yeah great cars...Still the fact remains how do you feel about some believing in the intercession?

The question was do I know if Lutherans DO something. In that case, no. There are, however, probably LOTS of things that at least one Lutheran does that I may not be aware of. I image the same is true for Greek Orthodox?



Now, how does the question of whether there is a Lutheran who doesn't own a dog provide the evidence that upon death, as a soul ascends into heaven, his/her ears undergo an evolutionary leap so that their sense of hearing can detect the prayers of all 2 billion or so believers (even if all at the same time, even if unspoken) and ERGO they pass on all these specific, particular petitions to the Father who ERGO is more likely to respond to them in a way the believer desires, especially if such a soul is the patron saint of the believer's job? The issue is not "Do some people pray to the saints?" I don't think that's an issue in dispute.






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[LinuxUser]

Why does someone have to go through an evolutionary leap. The soul is not physical so that kind of stuff would not apply

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Toyotas? Yeah great cars...Still the fact remains how do you feel about some believing in the intercession?

Already addressed.

But this thread isn't about could there be an example of at least one person doing or not doing something. Is it?

The discussion here is the evidence that when a believer dies, as their soul ascends into heaven, that their ears undergo an evolutionary leap so that their sense of hearing can now detect the prayers of all 2 billion or so believers (even if all at the same time, even if unspoken) and ERGO they pass on all these specific, particular petitions to the Father who ERGO is more likely to respond to them in a way the believer desires, especially if such a soul is the patron saint of the believer's job? The issue is not "Do some people pray to the saints?" I don't think that's an issue in dispute.



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[Thekla]

So angels, who do not have human bodies, cannot hear ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Why does someone have to go through an evolutionary leap. The soul is not physical so that kind of stuff would not apply

We know GOD knows all, and thus knows what we pray.
Do you have evidence that souls in heaven are all-knowing?
That ergo they forward to the Father all the petitions of all believers?
That ergo God the Father responds to such more to the liking of the believer on earth?
Especially if that soul is the patron saint of the job of that prayer?






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[CaliforniaJosiah]

So angels, who do not have human bodies, cannot hear ?

Are humans angels? Is it Orthodox dogma that humans become angels when they die? IF so, please provide the documentation for that.




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[Thekla]

Do you have evidence that souls in heaven are all-knowing?

Dodging the issue by making a claim which does not accurately represent the practice and belief under discussion.

 

[Thekla]

Are humans angels? Is it Orthodox dogma that humans become angels when they die? IF so, please provide the documentation for that.

You seem to claim that the ability to hear is entirely an attribute of the human body.

If your apparent claim is correct, then angels cannot hear.

The Scriptures teach that there is physical hearing, and also spiritual hearing.

 

[Philothei]

Dailymotion - Intercession of the Saints - a People & Family video

 

[LinuxUser]

We know GOD knows all, and thus knows what we pray.
Do you have evidence that souls in heaven are all-knowing?
That ergo they forward to the Father all the petitions of all believers?
That ergo God the Father responds to such more to the liking of the believer on earth?
Especially if that soul is the patron saint of the job of that prayer?






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I never ask that. So are souls physical?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We know GOD knows all, and thus knows what we pray.
Do you have evidence that souls in heaven are all-knowing?
That ergo they forward to the Father all the petitions of all believers?
That ergo God the Father responds to such more to the liking of the believer on earth?
Especially if that soul is the patron saint of the job of that prayer?


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I never ask that.

I did. I asked YOU.

So are souls physical?

Not that I know of. Thus, how do they specifically hear the specific petitions of all 2 billion plus believers on earth, at the same time, even unspoken ones, and ERGO pass these specific, particular petitions (all of them) on to the Father who ERGO is more apt to reply to them in the say the two billion on earth desire, especially if said saint is their patron saint of their job?

Now, IF you want to say that souls become all-knowing, then I follow - they don't hear but they know EVERYTHING. Got it. But then we have some new evidence/substantiation to look at. And if you say that at the sound of the bell, souls turn into angels - you've changed the whole thing again.






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[Thekla]

All spiritual hearing is through God.