ivebeenshown
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I don't want to argue law either... just pointing out, the Apostles considered it 'troubling and soul-subverting' to command Christians to keep the law.
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I don't want to argue law either... just pointing out, the Apostles considered it 'troubling and soul-subverting' to command Christians to keep the law.OK, well I'm not arguing law. I've taken a sabbatical from doing that.
The Saints in heaven are not bound by the physics of earth...What I don't understand is that God is the only all knowing, all seeing, all present - when you pray to Saints - what happens if they are listening to someone else - they can't hear your prayers - they are not all knowing, all seeing, all present.
Sure... but what is usually meant by "Saint" is one who has completed the process of sanctification.The Bible also says that all God's children are saints.
I would like to add a question for you, as well as daydreamer, if you don't mind, Stryder, luv.
Can you tell me why first and second century Christians were asking the prayers of those departed martyred Christian saints if it was not taught to do so? Why and how did they learn to do this? Where did they learn this from?
I would like to add a question for you, as well as daydreamer, if you don't mind, Stryder, luv.
Can you tell me why first and second century Christians were asking the prayers of those departed martyred Christian saints if it was not taught to do so? Why and how did they learn to do this? Where did they learn this from?
Tradition teaches what the canon of Scripture is and is not. In fact, Paul called the CHURCH the pillar and foundation of truth -- not the bible, although the Church naturally includes the Scriptures (as well as Tradition.)Are not those we read of in the New Testament, the 1st generation Christian? Do we read about them asking prayers of those "departed martyred Christian saints"? Does Scripture even attest to such a thing as being done? I mean it tells us that some were baptizing themselves for the dead and Paul wrote to them about that.....but no, silence when it comes to speaking to the dead about praying for them to God.
We say, well tradition teaches this and that happened. But really, is that what tradition taught that the Apostles did? Was that God breathed? We know the testaments are true of the Scriptures because they are backed up by God inspiring them to write, but what authority do we have to say that the traditions of man is also true? You say "well that's how it has always been done in the 1st century church" but we have the writings of what was being done in the first generation church, and what you speak of, is silent on the matter.
I can totally understand your feeling this way and seeing it this way. Having just started asking the saints in His presence in heaven to pray for my son and my family in 2008, I didn't really understand any of that before then. But the difference for me was that I didn't have something against it or thought it was wrong. I just didn't think I needed to and didn't know how to ask them. Then, one evening in utter emotional distress for my son, after praying to God, I did ask three Saints for their prayers. I know the effects and experience I had that followed. I only wished I'd done so years and years ago.Well I am not against Christians praying for each other. But I guess what gets me is that it seems like you're (and I use that in general, I don't mean you particularly) are putting your faith in that saint. It's like, your prayers are said to the saint, asking them to pray for you because it's like they have a better chance of having their prayers heard then you do.
Yes, I know and understand what you're saying. Unlike others who don't understand where we're coming from, I can understand your perspective.But we still have the problem of actually establishing that you have an immortal soul. I guess that's where I keep getting caught up.
And btw, I contribute that to the work of the Holy Spirit that guided me back to church and to attend the liturgy where that exact and specific homily (sermon) was given.....no accient, no coincidence. I don't believe in them.Stryder, I get passionate about things. Please forgive me. I want to share with you a personal experience. Back in my early to mid 20's, I was a non practicing Christian and I consulted psychics, read horoscopes, and dream dictionaries. When my parents and I decided to start attending church, we went together, and the first Divine Liturgy - the sermon the priest gave was about psychics, reading palms, etc. He said you can't serve 2 masters. Going to these people to seek my future was serving the enemy, not God. So the Orthodox Church is quite adamant about being against such practices. So I quit right when I got home. Threw all the books and crud right into the garbage.
Christ transformed death into an entrance onto eternal life.
Ps: sorry for the strange post. I'm on my phone.
OK, well I'm not arguing law. I've taken a sabbatical from doing that.
Sure, I would agree that the Apostles and those in the Bible are part of the first century Christians, and that also they were all part of the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church created at Pentecost.Are not those we read of in the New Testament, the 1st generation Christian? Do we read about them asking prayers of those "departed martyred Christian saints"? Does Scripture even attest to such a thing as being done? I mean it tells us that some were baptizing themselves for the dead and Paul wrote to them about that.....but no, silence when it comes to speaking to the dead about praying for them to God.
So, anybody that isn't the Apostles or mentioned in the bible that says they are full of the Holy Spirit - those people after the Apostles are not lead by the Spirit or full of the Holy Spirit. Only those in a book and the book itself? God doesn't shed his Grace on anybody else?We say, well tradition teaches this and that happened. But really, is that what tradition taught that the Apostles did? Was that God breathed? We know the testaments are true of the Scriptures because they are backed up by God inspiring them to write, but what authority do we have to say that the traditions of man is also true? You say "well that's how it has always been done in the 1st century church" but we have the writings of what was being done in the first generation church, and what you speak of, is silent on the matter.
We have eye witness reports - writings - of those asking the martyrs and Apostles to pray for them.
I have to say, I felt very much in the presence of God at St. Andrew's relics (his head) in a church named for him in Patras, Greece. I was moved to tears. On my knees, leaning on the marble block in front of the glass relic case. I wasn't really doing anything at first but sitting there in silence. But suddenly I thought about St. Andrew and his life. I felt like I was going back to when he was alive on earth and could feel the hardships he went through, the persecutions, and eventually the being crucified on a wooden cross in the shape of an "X" that was there next to the relic area. This is what moved me to tears. I hadn't realized all that he'd gone through at that time and I was at a loss for words. All that came out of my mouth was, "St. Andrew, please pray for us." And I crossed myself and got up to leave.One of the several difficulties with the doctrine of Saints is the dichotomy of where prayers are actually heard and understood by the Saints. The traditional school of thought was that the Saint heard prayers only at his holy site which was sometimes the place where he or she was martyred or some other notable event of his or her life occured. Thus, there has developed a whole system of pilgrimages to these sites in the expectation that one's prayers will be answered at these locations by the Saint.
Given the fact that not everyone is able to make a pilgrimage, the doctrine shifted to having the Saint answer prayers at sanctified altars usually containing a bit of his or her body which signified that they were somehow tied to that altar and would hear and answer prayers. There then arose the whole system of relic and reliquaries, some of which are really not for the squeamish.
Nowadays, the Saint is view somewhat as a demigod, being everywhere at the same time and hearing everyone's prayer to him or her simultaneously. Thus, a person can pray to the Saint while munching on his or her cereal at the breakfast table. That certainly saves the trouble of making a pilgrimage or even going to the nearest church with an altar or icon dedicated to the Saint
Then why bother? You want me to go and research all this for you, but you're saying it won't matter. Am I to waste my time on this?Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!
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Then why bother? You want me to go and research all this for you, but you're saying it won't matter. Am I to waste my time on this?
How ever you may want to spin it, they did very much go against Scripture. The Apostles setup new rules and doctrines and that was why the council ultimately was setup to see who has Authority and the consensus was not Scripture alone.
The law was in Scripture and they were saying that no longer is the law alone the Authority
Not that it would change anything, but just for my own edification, would you please give some examples of those in the First Century who prayed to someone they taught to be in heaven with something they wanted them to pass on to God, clearly with the belief that they would pass it on? Just some examples from then might help. Thanks. Perhaps you'll also give some first century examples of how Christians embraced that saints were designated to certain professions (Saint of Miners, for example) - the issue of this thread. Thanks so much!
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Oh, dear me....
How can the apostles go against the word of the LORD? Wasn't the circumcision of the heart written in the Old Testament?
Didn't Paul use the Scriptures to preach the GOOD NEWS to the Bereans?
Didn't Jesus Christ use the Scriptures to explain His death to those who didn't believe that He was indeed the Messiah?
I humbly suggest you think twice before making such a claim.
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