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Saint Joan of Arc - endlessly fascinating

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by empther, Mar 4, 2003.

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  1. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

    Sure, i think God can send dead people to say things, but they can only speak and be spoken to if it is his will! This was what happened in Joans case...
    However i don't believe in praying to the saints, do you? (on a side note.. ;))
  2. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    A very Catholic statement, indeed. :D

    It depends. As most non-Catholics use the term "pray to" to include worship, I do not pray to saints. But, as a Catholic uses the term pray, in which no worship is meant, yes, I do pray to saints. The term pray, in and of itself, means nothing more to ask, so technically, any time you ask anyone, anything, you are praying to them. Basically what a Catholic is doing when they 'pray to saints' is having, as hoonbaba said, the world's largest prayer group session. We unite ourselves in prayer to God, through Jesus.

    God Bless,

  3. empther

    empther New Member

    1. Reply to OLDoMINION, post 19

    I thoroughly discussed the Voices earlier and made it clear they were messengers from God. What’s the problem?

    2. Reply to issinwhat, post 20

    I suspect that ninety-nine percent of the people who login to these Christian Forums already accept that the saints are alive in Christ and don’t need to re-examine the issue.

    3. General reply.

    This will inevitably sound rude to some people but it can’t be helped.

    I have joined a half dozen forums in other websites and have found the same problem everywhere: the failure to focus on the thread’s subject. On one forum someone calling himself ‘pangsborn’ kept posting replies that he believed in Bigfoot and that Joan arrived here by an alien spaceship. He assured me that he believed this. On another forum somebody calling herself ‘stretch’ had posted twenty-five hundred ( 2,500 ) posts in three months. Her posts were on every thread regardless of subject matter. I saw nobody make a direct reply to her, but she spammed the entire forum system to death, concentrating on the most active threads including mine about Joan which I finally abandoned.


    This thread is about the historical facts of the story of Joan of Arc. People who login into a thread called "Joan of Arc" most likely want to find out something about Joan of Arc. They have a RIGHT to succeed in their quest. If they have concerns about some other unrelated issue they will search for the appropriate thread.

    I note a lack of focus in people under 40. Someone in one forum said I was obsessed with Joan. I prefer to call it focus, properly compartamentalized to a hour or so a day when I’m not working or doing something, but, OK, if you want to call it obsession that’s fine. I can think of a lot of people who were obsessed with what they were doing. Here’s a few examples: Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, Ramses II, Moses, Jesus Christ, St Paul, St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, William Shakespeare, Sir Isaac Newton, Napoleon Bonaparte, George Washington, Louis Pasteur, Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Adolf Hitler, General George Patton, Elvis Presley, John Kennedy, Neil Armstrong, Steve Jobs, William Gates, Britney Spears, and Saint Joan of Arc.


    Mr. Administrator: What can I do?

    Norman Boutin
  4. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    I agree, but given that just such a question was asked in post number 19 by one of the 1%, I felt the need to address it. I apologize for breaking the flow of your thread, and I ask that any future posts regarding anything other than St. Joan of Arc be made in the IDD forum.

    God Bless,

  5. empther

    empther New Member

    Here is part of an email exchange I had with a gentleman named Patrick. It shows the kind of new knowledge that can be gained by people who know how to focus.

    Hi Norman,
    I read with interest your paper on the death of Joan of Arc
    by heat stroke, on Virginia Frohlick's web site. I think you
    make a very strong case. But I was wondering if you
    have considered the possibility that she was breathing
    oxygen-depleted air? I know that one of the documents
    of the Re-trial refer to her as having been "suffocated
    by a cruel and horrible fire". You make a good pointthat she couldn't have spoken clearly if she was being
    choked by smoke. But if she was surrounded by flame,
    certainly the fire would *tend* to exhaust the oxygen
    in the air around her. I don't know to what extent
    this would happen.

    ( email editted )


    Dear Patrick,

    Your email was by far the most interesting and insightful one I've yet received and deserves a detailed reply. I'll have to break it up in topics. Hopefully it will all come together.

    Imagine that Joan was standing in a cubic air space 5 feet on the edge. This cube contained 8.9 pounds of air or just under 2 pounds of oxygen. An active person breathes in about 90 pounds of oxygen per day. Be grateful I'm sparing you all the calculations needed to get this information!

    How much oxygen did Joan need during those ten minutes? An active person "burns" up a pound of sugar a day. This requires only one and a half pounds of oxygen per day. Believe it or not. The other 88.5 pounds of oxygen is never used.
    ( editted )

    The fire surrounding Joan in a ring need not burn all the oxygen being supplied to it. The wood burns only as quickly as molecules of oxygen can reach molecules of fresh wood. Some kind of "dissection" of the wood is required, therefore controlling the rate of burn. How much air is drawn into the fire has nothing to do with the availability of fresh wood. The amount of air drawn in depends on the temperature of the exhaust gases over the fire. The exhaust gases are lighter that normal air and rise up quickly causing more air to be sucked in below. In fact a fire is most likely to "breath" in many times more air and oxygen than it actually consumes, just as we do.

    Consider this thought-experiment. Take a pound of wood. Supply it with all the air it wants but keep the nitrogen-oxygen mix such that the wood burns very slowly to completion in 24 hours. How much warm air has the fire drawn in and made to rise up in 24 hours? At least a few hundred pounds and probably over a thousand. Yet the fire only consumed a pound and a half of oxygen. I can be more precise than that. A pound of sugar, or wood, has about 3,500,000 calories in the standard scientific cgs system. ( Food energy 'calories' are actually kilocalories.) 3,500,000 calories will raise the temperature of 3,500,000 grams of air by four degrees Centigrade. ( More CRC Handbook stuff!) That's 7,709 pounds of air. If you want the temperature change to be 40 degrees Centigrade that's 771 pounds of air, raised straight up ( and drawn in below ) by just that miserable one pound of fuel which consumed only 1.5 pounds of oxygen..

    The ring of fire around Joan didn't just draw in air from outside the ring. It also had to draw in air from inside. The source of this inside air was the atmosphere over Joan's head. (Editted)
    Also note my reply to "Jackie"'s email. I said that in house fires a room's oxygen concentration may get down to 13 percent. A person passes out at 12 percent and dies at 6 percent. But Joan was out in the open. It's virtually impossible that the open air could have gotten down to the 6 percent level needed to suffocate her. I challenged "Jackie" to find a single case of anybody dying due SOLELY because of being near an open air woodpile fire.

    I found that quotation you gave me. It is on Virginia Frohlich's Joan of Arc Center website in the Trial of Nullification section. It is near the end of the Concluding Document. The judges are talking about announcing their findings in the infamous Rouen City Square:"To-morrow, at the Old Market-Place, in the same place where the said Jeanne was suffocated by a cruel and horrible fire, also with a General Preaching and with the placing of a handsome cross for the perpetual memory of the Deceased and for her salvation and that of other deceased persons."

    Exactly what are they saying? Do they say Joan was burned to death? Do they say she was touched by fire? No.

    They are saying Joan died from lack of air.

    They must have had some understanding of the need to breath! (Editted)

    They observed that people who drowned, or were strangled, died without any apparent injury to their bodies. No gunshots, stabbings, falls, or avalanches were needed. Similarly, they saw people at the stake die before the fire got to them. At sometime or other they may have put the fire out, examined the dead heretic and found nothing wrong with the body. ( Remember 15-yr Jean Requier's story about what they did to Joan's body? ) They had to conclude that for some mysterious reason the victim had been strangled, or drowned, or suffocated.

    NOTE BENE ! A rise in body temperature alone would not cause someone to breath rapidly. In this case Joan should have been talking a mile a minute. It had always been her nature to speak out. Just minutes earlier she had prayed out loud for half an hour. Would she then suddenly make a New Year's resolution to be quiet in her last moments? Witnesses said she only said the name of Jesus a few times near the end. We must account for this. Heat stroke would force her to breath deeply and rapidly and that would make it impossible for her to read the riot act out loud.


    Could Joan have died from suffocation? Yes. I have never categorically denied the possibility. But I believe the chances of suffocation were extremely remote.

    The process of heat stroke had to at least begin. Nobody can deny that. For the reasons given in this letter, and elsewhere on my website, I believe Joan's death was almost certainly caused by relatively painless and merciful heat stroke. In any case, the witnesses's testimony which I've displayed on my website, and the quotation discussed above, all point to some kind of relatively painless and merciful death. Thank God!

    Attention young boys and girls of America! There is no longer any reason to avoid Joan's story. It's not scary. Her end wasn't so bad. Along with the good thief on Calvary, Joan was one of only two people who were told they were going to Heaven BEFORE they died. How do you think Joan felt about that?

    Norman Boutin
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