Sacred Heart and Nestorianism?

[Not David]

I was listening to this Orthodox J.D. and he mentions that the worship of the Sacred Heart is Nestorian because you are dividing Christ.

Would that be correct?

 

[ArmyMatt]

some kind of quasi-Nestorian, yes.

 

[Barney2.0]

I think I watched that video too a while back, he’s an Eastern Orthodox youtuber called David, he has some good content and he’s well versed in theological issues I must say. I personally find it odd that one would like to venerate a body part of Christ instead of or alongside of Christ as a whole. Most of these strange Roman Catholic venerations also have extremely weird back stories some of which are quite disturbing, such as Roman Catholic nuns claiming to have had encounters with Christ with sexual overtones.

 

[dzheremi]

It is certainly against the witness of the fathers, if we are to take the likes of HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic seriously (which we should). HH wrote the following concerning the proper worship of the incarnate God-man Jesus Christ (Ep. ad Adelph, paragraph 3; emphasis added):

We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that 'the Word was made flesh,' we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God.​

So it would seem that any such devotion to the Body as a fleshly thing separated from the Divinity (as some would argue the focus on individual body parts necessitates) does violate this proper, Orthodox worship. We are never to vivisect Christ, you know?

As to whether or not it is Nestorian, that's a speculation I'm not willing or qualified to make. Just don't do it, period, and let academics fight over what it is.

 

[Barney2.0]

It is certainly against the witness of the fathers, if we are to take the likes of HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic seriously (which we should). HH wrote the following concerning the proper worship of the incarnate God-man Jesus Christ (Ep. ad Adelph, paragraph 3; emphasis added):

We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that 'the Word was made flesh,' we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God.​

So it would seem that any such devotion to the Body as a fleshly thing separated from the Divinity (as some would argue the focus on individual body parts necessitates) does violate this proper, Orthodox worship. We are never to vivisect Christ, you know?

As to whether or not it is Nestorian, that's a speculation I'm not willing or qualified to make. Just don't do it, period, and let academics fight over what it is.

From which book did you get that quote from, is it from “On the Incarnation of the Word?” Just curious as I’ve seen it pop up before I think.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

We dont worship his heart. It is a symbol of his love which we revere.

 

[dzheremi]

From which book did you get that quote from, is it from “On the Incarnation of the Word?” Just curious as I’ve seen it pop up before I think.

No, it's from his epistle to Adelphius, which so far I have only found a complete version of in Greek, as it is part of Migne's Patrologia Graeca series (something like 160+ volumes of Greek works). Some helpful person over on Logos' community board put up links to the PDF's of all of HH's works collected by Migne, so you can find it there. Translation appears to be quite piecemeal, as it's easy to find that particular quote (say, here or here), as it bears much weight as to this particular question/practice, but not as easy to find the actual epistle in English. There are various collections of HH's epistles (I once owned one in Syriac, but lost it in my move to my current home), so it's no doubt in one or maybe many of these, but I have yet to find it online in English, only excerpts. Perhaps someone here will know where to find it in translation.

 

[Barney2.0]

No, it's from his epistle to Adelphius, which so far I have only found a complete version of in Greek, as it is part of Migne's Patrologia Graeca series (something like 160+ volumes of Greek works). Some helpful person over on Logos' community board put up links to the PDF's of all of HH's works collected by Migne, so you can find it there. Translation appears to be quite piecemeal, as it's easy to find that particular quote (say, here or here), as it bears much weight as to this particular question/practice, but not as easy to find the actual epistle in English. There are various collections of HH's epistles (I once owned one in Syriac, but lost it in my move to my current home), so it's no doubt in one or maybe many of these, but I have yet to find it online in English, only excerpts. Perhaps someone here will know where to find it in translation.

I’ve seen Arabic translations of it, I like anything written by Saint Athanasius of Alexandria he’s my favorite Church Father.

 

[Lukaris]

The veneration of the sacred heart is outside our tradition but I never perceived it to be Nestorian. It is a spiritual foundation for a hospice of the Catholic Church. I would rather just not be concerned about it as a tradition but just see the good that the Catholic Church utilizes it for.

 

[rusmeister]

The veneration of the sacred heart is outside our tradition but I never perceived it to be Nestorian. It is a spiritual foundation for a hospice of the Catholic Church. I would rather just not be concerned about it as a tradition but just see the good that the Catholic Church utilizes it for.

I don’t agree with this. You’re saying that as a doctrine it is unimportant and has no theological effect, and I think that is not true. It’s obvious to me that it does, just as the Filioque does. (I’m just not the smartest cookie when it comes to theological questions; I’ve always been more of an apologetics guy.)

 

[Lukaris]

I don’t agree with this. You’re saying that as a doctrine it is unimportant and has no theological effect, and I think that is not true. It’s obvious to me that it does, just as the Filioque does. (I’m just not the smartest cookie when it comes to theological questions; I’ve always been more of an apologetics guy.)

To me it’s just some Catholic tradition that seems incompatible with Orthodox tradition. I just think the hospice workers are good Christian people.

 

[dzheremi]

To me it’s just some Catholic tradition that seems incompatible with Orthodox tradition. I just think the hospice workers are good Christian people.

Lots of people may be good; does that mean that their practices or theology should enter your parishes? No, right?

 

[Lukaris]

Lots of people may be good; does that mean that their practices or theology should enter your parishes? No, right?

No, I was only referring to the healthcare network of the Hospice of the Sacred Heart & its care providers. I mean what they do on a general community basis nothing to do with our parishes.

 

[Not David]

I just realized today is the celebration of the Sacred Heart.

 

[TheLostCoin]

To me it’s just some Catholic tradition that seems incompatible with Orthodox tradition. I just think the hospice workers are good Christian people.

Yeah to be honest, unless it started impacting Eastern Orthodox tradition, I don't see the point in going out of your way to criticize it. The Sacred Heart began as a private vision given to a Catholic nun, which was later spread by the Jesuits.

Considering that Catholics very clearly don't believe in Nestorianism, and their inherent spirituality will be different from Eastern Orthodoxy, why is it the business of the Orthodox to go out of their way condemning the spirituality of monks and nuns that, quite frankly, put to shame a lot of Orthodox?

It shouldn't be the business of the Orthodox to judge the spiritual lives of non-Orthodox, unless it becomes hostile towards Orthodoxy.

Why don't you say a prayer for them instead of wasting your time complaining on the internet to the winds? What, will this one thread suddenly stop the Sacred Heart devotion?

Nobody likes it when the Catholics criticize Palamism as a Christianized yoga.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Lots of people may be good; does that mean that their practices or theology should enter your parishes? No, right?

Posting a thread online does not equal theology entering your parishes.

Although you Copts have a lot more to worry about than the Eastern Orthodox; I've experienced Protestantization and Catholicization first hand at a Coptic parish.

 

[dzheremi]

Considering that Catholics very clearly don't believe in Nestorianism,

The Syro-Malabar Catholics from southern India and the Chaldean Catholics from Iraq both have an anaphora supposedly authored by Nestorius which they still use to this day in their liturgies, though sometimes they put it under a different name for some reason.

Here is a video of the Syro-Malabar Catholics celebrating the 'Qudasha of Mar Nestorius', in the Syro-Malabar eparchy of Great Britain:

I'm not sure that anyone can say firmly that the Roman Catholic communion believes anything in particular beyond a semi-shared ecclesiastical vision ('semi-' because the history of groups like the Maronites is somewhat messier than they themselves tend to portray it in this regard).

As to your other post, my Church or it's problems integrating properly into new lands is not the subject of this thread, and is neither appropriate to this board, nor this thread. I'll thank you to not bring up irrelevant matters, as the Sacred Heart devotion is nowhere found in Coptic Orthodox spirituality. I've experienced Protestantization in literally every Catholic parish I ever visited, and Latinization in the Eastern Catholic (Ruthenian) parish I visited before leaving Catholicism entirely. What would that have to do with the topic? Nothing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Considering that Catholics very clearly don't believe in Nestorianism

except that to divide the Incarnate Christ into "parts" is the error of Nestorianism.

It shouldn't be the business of the Orthodox to judge the spiritual lives of non-Orthodox, unless it becomes hostile towards Orthodoxy.

it's also not the business of a non-denom to tell us how to relate to erroneous Roman teaching.

Why don't you say a prayer for them instead of wasting your time complaining on the internet to the winds? What, will this one thread suddenly stop the Sacred Heart devotion?

pointing out it's incompatibility is not the same as complaining to the four winds. and I suspect no one thinks this'll stop it, but it is good for us to discuss in case someone comes asking why we don't do it.

Nobody likes it when the Catholics criticize Palamism as a Christianized yoga.

Palamism goes back to the OT. the Sacred Heart does not. those are apples and oranges.

 

[TheLostCoin]

it's also not the business of a non-denom to tell us how to relate to erroneous Roman teaching.

Ain't my fault that after two and a half years of weekly catechism courses and attending liturgy every single week, going out of my way to volunteer at my parish's soup kitchen, and trying to go to confession as much as I could without receiving absolution, my parish priest for all intents and purposes told me to get lost.

Truly, there are prostitutes that are entering into the Kingdom of God before some Orthodox. In fact, I would say most prostitutes compared to most Orthodox.

 

[Lukaris]

Yeah to be honest, unless it started impacting Eastern Orthodox tradition, I don't see the point in going out of your way to criticize it. The Sacred Heart began as a private vision given to a Catholic nun, which was later spread by the Jesuits.

Considering that Catholics very clearly don't believe in Nestorianism, and their inherent spirituality will be different from Eastern Orthodoxy, why is it the business of the Orthodox to go out of their way condemning the spirituality of monks and nuns that, quite frankly, put to shame a lot of Orthodox?

It shouldn't be the business of the Orthodox to judge the spiritual lives of non-Orthodox, unless it becomes hostile towards Orthodoxy.

Why don't you say a prayer for them instead of wasting your time complaining on the internet to the winds? What, will this one thread suddenly stop the Sacred Heart devotion?

Nobody likes it when the Catholics criticize Palamism as a Christianized yoga.

This is amazing, some people think I am endorsing the sacred heart & others think I am putting it down as an example of Nestorianism within the RCC.

All I have been saying is that this is not our tradition, poses theology problems for us, did not think it is Nestorian, and to leave it be but look for any general good it might have as exemplified by the care providers of the Hospice of the Sacred Heart.