Sabbath

[Laodicean]

Lao, the law is eternal. The Ten Commandments are not. The law is love.

And what exactly is love? Would you describe for me how love behaves? What is the standard of love? What are its characteristics?

The Ten Commandments are not principles; they are based on principles. You are molding the facts to fit your conclusion when you speak of the principle of not stealing. There is no principle of not stealing. Stealing is an indication that a principle has been violated.

Would you agree that love is a principle, and that that principle means "Do no harm to others"?

So let's take the ninth commandment -- bearing false witness -- and see how far back it goes. Did lying originate at the time of the Israelites and that is why a commandment had to be given at that time, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"?

How far back in time can we go before it becomes evident that it is okay to bear false witness against another? Biblically speaking, we can't go any further back than the history written there. (Whether you agee with the reliability of the Bible or not, let us use that standard of information for purposes of this discussion, okay?)

If we are going to base our argument from the Bible, would you agree that we can say that the command to not bear false witness existed as far back as the Garden of Eden? The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.

So, would you agree that the prinicples of the ten commandments have existed long before they were encoded in a certain set of words?

 

[StormyOne]

The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.

Kind of dramatic don't you think? Do you really believe that it was a "test" at a tree? Why would God need to test humans? Humankind has not died, so what would you make of that? Don't you think there is something missing in the narrative IF trust could be so easily broken?

 

[Avonia]

So, would you agree that the prinicples of the ten commandments have existed long before they were encoded in a certain set of words?

Divine Law is not given or established. Divine Law simply Is.

 

[Avonia]

Also, you make a good argument that removing the words "do not kill" from the list does not really remove the principle of "do not kill" from the universe, right?

"Do not kill" is not a principle. Principles are more like the most fundamental maps of relationship. Until people understand that everything is a part of everything, you have to start at "do not kill" so people don't get killed. ("Unforgiven" reference for Stormy's sake.)

Killing and stealing are symptoms of a breakdown in relationship. You can abstain from killing and still have broken relationships. But at least everyone stays alive long enough to hopefully learn something.

 

[Sophia7]

And what exactly is love? Would you describe for me how love behaves? What is the standard of love? What are its characteristics?

This is a pretty good description of how love behaves, and it isn't even based on the ten commandments:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
​

Also, the standard for us is not the law but the Spirit living in us:

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
​

Would you agree that love is a principle, and that that principle means "Do no harm to others"?

So let's take the ninth commandment -- bearing false witness -- and see how far back it goes. Did lying originate at the time of the Israelites and that is why a commandment had to be given at that time, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"?

How far back in time can we go before it becomes evident that it is okay to bear false witness against another? Biblically speaking, we can't go any further back than the history written there. (Whether you agee with the reliability of the Bible or not, let us use that standard of information for purposes of this discussion, okay?)

If we are going to base our argument from the Bible, would you agree that we can say that the command to not bear false witness existed as far back as the Garden of Eden? The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.

So, would you agree that the prinicples of the ten commandments have existed long before they were encoded in a certain set of words?

The ninth commandment was limited in scope. It prohibited bearing false witness against a neighbor. It did not prohibit all lying. The ten commandments, including the ninth, were specific applications of eternal principles, not principles themselves, and they were given to a limited people for a limited time. The ten commandments were not principles "encoded in a certain set of words"; they were merely words based on eternal principles. That distinction was a major factor in my rethinking of the Adventist Sabbath doctrine.

 

[k4c]

This is a pretty good description of how love behaves, and it isn't even based on the ten commandments:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
​

Also, the standard for us is not the law but the Spirit living in us:

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
​

The ninth commandment was limited in scope. It prohibited bearing false witness against a neighbor. It did not prohibit all lying. The ten commandments, including the ninth, were specific applications of eternal principles, not principles themselves, and they were given to a limited people for a limited time. The ten commandments were not principles "encoded in a certain set of words"; they were merely words based on eternal principles. That distinction was a major factor in my rethinking of the Adventist Sabbath doctrine.

There is a worldy perverted love and a godly love and both can display the attitude of love found in 1 Corthians 13:4. Two homosexuals can manifest the 1 Corinthians 13:4 attitude. But it's the Ten Commandments that defines what godly love looks like.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

In other words, if you love your neigbor with a godly love you will find yourself doing the same things that are defined in the Ten Commandment. Now let's take this one step further. If you love God you will find yourself doing things that are defined in the Ten Commandments. If you love God you will have no other gods before God. If you love God you won't use His name in vain. If you love God you will honor His holy day for true godly love will fulfill the Law for that is what makes godly love, godly.

 

[Joe67]

Some who hear the law and feel the sentence of death, they will turn to man for relief.

Some who hear the law from man continue to confess that they will do ALL of it.

Some neglect and eventually despise the God-given purpose of the law to make us conscious of sin. They confess the name of Jesus without a continuing, daily confession of their unbelief.

The law comes to some and they are convinced of their idolatrous practices and sorcery of imagination and are led to cry unto the Lord for deliverance from the body of death. They are given hope while being against hope.

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean: The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.
​

Kind of dramatic don't you think? Do you really believe that it was a "test" at a tree?

I did not say it was a test. Or is it that you think that I think it was a test? No, I do not think that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a test. I think it was placed there to validate the gift of free choice given to humans.

Why would God need to test humans?

I don't think God was testing humans. Why do you think that God was testing humans? "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." James 1:13.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was not a test, but a place that supplied evidence that humans were given freewill. No one could say that they were made a robot when God had placed clear evidence before them that they could choose to trust Him or not. The consequences of choice were given, so that man was not left in the dark.

Humankind has not died, so what would you make of that?

the text does not say that in the day you eat of it, humankind will surely die. This was an individual consequence, passed on from individual to individual via genetics. You will die and I will die, unless there is intervention.

Don't you think there is something missing in the narrative IF trust could be so easily broken?

I can't say what is missing in the narrative. The Bible is very succinct in its accounts.

 

[Laodicean]

Divine Law is not given or established. Divine Law simply Is.

I agree with you, Avonia, that Divine Law simply IS. And it does not take away from its "ISness", just because a need arises where it must be clarified in words that man can understand.

I think what you have just said is that the Divine Law is eternal and existed in principle long before Mt. Sinai, and will continue to exist through eternity. Did I get that right?

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Also, you make a good argument that removing the words "do not kill" from the list does not really remove the principle of "do not kill" from the universe, right?
​

"Do not kill" is not a principle. Principles are more like the most fundamental maps of relationship. Until people understand that everything is a part of everything, you have to start at "do not kill" so people don't get killed. ("Unforgiven" reference for Stormy's sake.)

Killing and stealing are symptoms of a breakdown in relationship. You can abstain from killing and still have broken relationships. But at least everyone stays alive long enough to hopefully learn something.

I guess that's a short-term good of the sixth commandment.

Would you explain further the principle behind "Do not kill"? Indeed, what is the principle of relationship?

This probably warrants a new thread since we are getting far afield from Searching's original topic.

 

[Laodicean]

This is a pretty good description of how love behaves, and it isn't even based on the ten commandments:

Sophia, if you don't mind, I'm going to transfer your post to my "What is love" thread. I'd rather not divert Searching's topic any further.

 

[Sophia7]

Sophia, if you don't mind, I'm going to transfer your post to my "What is love" thread. I'd rather not divert Searching's topic any further.

All right. I'll repost it there.

 

[StormyOne]

Laodicean: The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.
​

I did not say it was a test. Or is it that you think that I think it was a test? No, I do not think that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a test. I think it was placed there to validate the gift of free choice given to humans.



I don't think God was testing humans. Why do you think that God was testing humans? "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." James 1:13.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was not a test, but a place that supplied evidence that humans were given freewill. No one could say that they were made a robot when God had placed clear evidence before them that they could choose to trust Him or not. The consequences of choice were given, so that man was not left in the dark.



the text does not say that in the day you eat of it, humankind will surely die. This was an individual consequence, passed on from individual to individual via genetics. You will die and I will die, unless there is intervention.



I can't say what is missing in the narrative. The Bible is very succinct in its accounts.

No I was asking if you thought it was a test, sorry, in my haste to respond I left out some crucial words in that question...

The consequence of the decision was not individual because most believe that because of Adam and Eve humankind would die...so what I am saying it had an effect on all humans...

The narrative raises more questions that it answers and I suppose it must since whoever wrote it was not there....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I just wanted to know what arguments and reasons there are for your continuation of the Sabbath? I'm not here to argue, only learn, and I hope anyone not agreeing with this view of the sabbath just respect this and not cause confrontations

It sounds as though you aren't interested in viewing this subject from all angles. Is it possible you've already made up your mind on this issue? If so, I'm happy that the sabbath is a blessing for you.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

The sabbath(s) of the Jewish history are a sign, and thereby a symbol, of our need of dying in the Lord, and thereby resting from our labors (symbolized by the 6 days of doing all our duty), that our works may follow us through the power of the resurrection in the kingdom of grace.

1 Cor 15:10
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. KJV

2 Cor 4:7
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. KJV

The Mosaic sabbath(s) symbolize our necessary death to that which is gain to us in our material world.

The Davidic sabbath of resurrection unto good works in the kingdom of grace, apart from the law of material gain, fulfills the purpose of the symbols given through Moses.

The symbols are good and useful for education and lead us to the Lord's promises through David and his Son, Jesus, who leads us back to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the promises of the Sovereign Lord to them, our spiritual fathers of faith and grace.

Phil 3:7-8
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, KJV

Sabbath is counting as loss, those things that are gain to us; that we might win Christ. This is true for the spirit, soul and body.

1 Thess 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

1 Cor 9:27-10:1
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The Mosaic sabbath(s) symbolize our necessary death to that which is gain to us in our material world.

Would the Mosaic sabbaths include all of the sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23?

The Davidic sabbath of resurrection unto good works in the kingdom of grace, apart from the law of material gain, fulfills the purpose of the symbols given through Moses.

What is the Davidic sabbath of resurrection?

The symbols are good and useful for education and lead us to the Lord's promises through David and his Son, Jesus, who leads us back to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the promises of the Sovereign Lord to them, our spiritual fathers of faith and grace.

Are symbols particularly meaningful for groups who can directly relate to the symbolism? For example, if a symbol is intended as a reminder of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt, would that symbol be particularly meaningful to Israelites?

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Would the Mosaic sabbaths include all of the sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23?



What is the Davidic sabbath of resurrection?



Are symbols particularly meaningful for groups who can directly relate to the symbolism? For example, if a symbol is intended as a reminder of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt, would that symbol be particularly meaningful to Israelites?

BFA

BFA,

Yes, all the Levticus 23 sabbaths. As we meditate upon all the sabbaths witnessed in Leviticus 23, the Lord will shew us the dead body of his Christ, our Lord Jesus, being made to be sin for us. This revelation will be like the rising of the sun unto the setting of the sun. The light will rise in obscurity.

Through David the Lord spoke the prophesy of the resurrection and the priesthood of his Christ. Psalm 2:7 and 110:4. These two prophesies are witnessed again in Hebrews. They are the prophetic authority for our Lord Jesus' ministration in the throne of the Father. The resurrection, in the light of Psalm 95:7, is the eternal rest in the ministration of the Spirit of grace. Our service in grace is called a rest from our own works. The yoke/service of Jesus in his spirit of grace is easy and his commandment/burden is light.

2 Cor 4:16-17
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;KJV

To-day, while it is called To-day, let us hear his voice and not be hardened through the deceitfulness of riches and make a golden calf unto ourselves and eat and drink and be merry and draw back unto perdition.

There are symbols of death and symbols of resurrection. All of these things are left for our admonition and instruction through the holy Spirit.

1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. KJV

1 Peter 1:11-12
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.KJV

Heb 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; KJV

Joe

 

[e7c7o7]

The Sabbath debate really boils down to whether or not Colossians 2:16 is talking about the seventh day sabbath and putting it in the category of all the other ceremonial ordinances which are of no use to a Christian (Hebrews 9:10)

The greek used for ' Sabbaths' is 'σαββάτων'. In actual fact this is used numerously, 11 occurences in fact only ever meaning an entire 7 day week or the 7th day Sabbath. In Jeremiah 17:24 "..to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein", Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.", Acts 13:14 "But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day". So the usage here is consintently and literally concerning the issue of the Sabbath day, which we know as Saturday. In the text concerned the 'new moon' and 'festival' are genetive singular nouns, concerning the actual new moon or festivals themselves as events in order to be completely inclusive in his denunciation of those who attack the Colossians concerning observing days. Yet when we come to the Sabbath a genetive plural noun is used here so that we could see this as seeing 'let no man therefore judge you...or a Sabbath day', whilst it could also be seen as 'Sabbaths'. So the issue is clearly the Sabbath day observance as seen above, further to this Paul makes an absolutely conclusive statement in respect to all Sabbaths as a constant event unlike that of holy days. It is plain that still SDA's would object to this, insisting that Paul so loved the Sabbath that he could never make such a statement in respect to this most holy institution.
Though there is a place in Scripture where this usage is used almost identically which is referring most definitely to the weekly Sabbath. The reference is Jeremiah 17:21-22 "Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day". In this passage of Scripture all would agree that Jeremiah is not making reference to one literal day of rest, it is a clear reference to the Sabbath. And it is also not discussing one singular Sabbath, as no one would reasonably deem this to be the meaning in the context. In every place that 'the sabbath day' is discussed the greek word 'σαββάτων' is used in the Greek Septuigant translation. Therefore there is no use of the word outside of the context of the seventh day-Sabbath.

In addition the exact same usage appears in Isaiah 1:13, in addition its documented that wherever the new moon and then the 'sabbata' is mentioned, 'sabbata' or 'sabbaton' is always making reference to the Sabbath (2 Kings 4:23, Nehemiah 10:33, Amos 8:5, Hosea 2:11, Ezekiel 45:17, 46:1,3)

 

[e7c7o7]

If we read the statement Paul makes in context and in the context of his writings in Galatians 4:10, Romans 14:5 I think we find a biblical conclusion on the sabbath issue. Coupled with the fact that history shows that early christians didn't all keep the sabbath, mostly the jewish christians.
""The primitive Christian community largely kept the Sabbath, more strictly in the case of Jewish Christians, but in that of some Gentile Christians as well (Col. 2:16; Worship 1)...Christians began to stop keeping the Sabbath in the late first century and increasingly in the second. They celebrated Sunday as the day of the ressurection instead (Barn. 15.9; Ign. Magn. 9.1) In some cases they attacked both the institution and the practice of the Sabbath (Diogn. 4.1; Barn. 2.5; the preaching of Peter, according to Clement of Alexandria Strom.6.5.41)" Encyclopedia of Christianity, Volume 4, page 790-791 by Erwin Fahlbusch, Geoffrey William Bromiley

 

[AzA]

The Sabbath debate really boils down to whether or not Colossians 2:16 is talking about the seventh day sabbath and putting it in the category of all the other ceremonial ordinances which are of no use to a Christian (Hebrews 9:10)

Perhaps this is the crux of the issue for some people. But for many others, this is very much a peripheral question.