Sabbath

[imaken]

My sincerest apologies for taking so long to get back to this thread. Pardon my need to make another post in this thread. I feel I must. Although the power of inference and general knowledge has been discounted in this thread, I feel I must return to it and "say my piece." -- For a further explaination for the delay see this ForU.ms post ---> foru.ms/showthread.php?p=38964070#post38964070

Originally Posted by - DRA -
Agreed. The Sabbath was sanctified by God i.e. Genesis
2:3. However, what the text doesn't say is that God
commanded Adam, Eve, and any of their offspring to
observe or rest on that day until God told Moses in
Exodus 16.
.and.
Back to my earlier question: "Okay, where are the Scriptures
that infer folks kept the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16?" I think
I've done a lot of the work for you. All you have to do is
provide the Scriptures that show the patriarchs kept the
Sabbath prior to God commanding the Israelites to keep it.
Patiently waiting . . . . . . . . . . . . .

ken wrote
With respect to the question of "How much did the antedeluvian
people before the flood know and practice by way of communion
with God" the following should be noted:
.and.
It was not until Enos was born that men began to pray. Seth,
Enos father, wasn't born until Adam was 130 years old. (Enos
born in Adam's 235th year by my calculation) Men started
praying after that. -- see Genesis 5:1-6

Just because they did not pray doesn't mean God didn't want them to pray.

Originally Posted by BustedFlat

Originally Posted by - DRA -
Okay, where are the Scriptures that infer folks kept the
Sabbath prior to Exodus 16?

Where does it say they did not?

DRA

Please point out exactly where in that passage, or another,
that states, infers, or implies that they kept the Sabbath.
Consider the word "sanctified" that appears in that passage.
It is the Hebrew word "qadash." It means that God set it
apart, or made it Holy.

Before men began to pray it is written Enoch walked with God. Does that mean Enoch understood something Adam did not? As we understand it, the Garden of Eden was still on Earth, with flaming swords to guard it. Did anyone watch what God did on His "sanctified" day of rest? Ever? Do you think if anybody had a chance to walk with God, wouldn't they have to rest with God, when God wasn't walking? Or at least known something about it? Come on. . . if there wasn't some validity here why would there be any questioning the yes or no of Sabbath in the first place, much less millennia.

Adam failed that test of "walking with God." Antedeluvian man failed that test of "walking with God." -- Enoch got it right and God took him. -- The Jews failed that test, twice, no three times. -- Jesus got it right. God took Him. We know who killed Him. -- And the modern church is still failing the Sabbath test.

Not to speak for anyone else, but I think if I had been anywhere near the Garden of Eden that first Sabbath, I would have been watching what God was doing, not running around doing my own thing. -- Please pardon any assumptions on my part.

You are absolutely right in that Sabbath observance was not "commanded." There was no prohibition to murder either was there? Is that why when Cain murdered Able, God didn't just destroy Cain outright? There wan't any "law against it" then was there?

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." -- Romans 4:15

"(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." -- Romans 5:13

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." -- Romans7:9-10

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." -- Romans7:7

There is one question which I feel needs answered. The Bible says, "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." -- Isaiah66:23 -- biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah66:22-24;&version=9;

This text is in conjunction with the "New Earth." So what "Sabbath" is it talking about?
Again, If God has a heartbeat, when?

Your brother in Jesus, ken
Jesus comes. Period.
TruthInJesus.net

Jesus is the Light
Walk in the Light
No sunglasses needed

 

[Eccl12and13]

In the warning Jesus gave us in the 24th Chap of Matt, He speaks of a Sabbath;

Matt.24

[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Now this warning that He gives pertains to the events leading up to His second coming, an event to take place even in our future.

My first question is this, Do you think Jesus is talking about a Sabbath other than the one where "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.", Luke 4? The only Sabbath He ever kept was the 7th day Sabbath established at creation. It was the same one given to the nation of Israel, and the same one observed by the Jews of His day? So is it possible that it will be a different Sabbath at His return?


Let's looking at some scriptures in the OT.


In the book of Isa. we find God speaking of a time during the millennium periodtalking to the nations;

Isa 66;
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

My second question is this, Do you think the Sabbath day All Flesh will be worshiping on will differ from the one God originally established at creation, the 7th day Sabbath, or do you think the "nations will have the option of serving God on whatever "they" choose?


Trust me, one way or another All Flesh will observe Gods' Sabbaths and high days. If not, this is what the "nations" will have to look forward to;


Again, this is speaking about a time during Christ 1000yr reign here on earth;


Zech.14

[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, andcome not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


After all, He did say these were to be observed forever.

Like I said in one of my other post, We can get used to doing them now or be FORCED to do them later; the choose is yours.


Mal.3


[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;


Heb.13


[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[holo]

Jesus IS my sabbath.

 

[cyberlizard]

Eccl12and13 you have it nailed in those quotes from the prophets.


The truth is many have deserted God's Sabbath....

some say Jesus is my Sabbath (prove the case)

 

[holo]

Eccl12and13 you have it nailed in those quotes from the prophets.


The truth is many have deserted God's Sabbath....

some say Jesus is my Sabbath (prove the case)

Heb 4:8-9
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

Jesus is the REALITY of the law and the prophets and the feasts etc etc, which were only SHADOWS of things to come. Jesus is everything to us, He is our widsom, He is our righteousness, He is our rest, He is our hope, He is our way, He is the truth the way and the Life.

As a gentile, I was never under the mosaic law to begin with. And now that Jesus has come, and I died with Him, and I'm dead to the law, and He IS my life, and the life that I live, I live IN HIM, and I rest every single day from my work, I obviously don't need to religiously observe a jewish sabbath. I'm free to if I want, and I'm not to judge those who do, but I'm under no such commandment.

 

[holo]

The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. It was a shadow, a sign. Just like the snake on Moses' staff, or like the offering of animals etc etc. Just like we wouldn't go on performing any of these shadows today, there's no reason to be performing the shadow that is the sabbath day.

The commandment wasn't only to observe the sabbath, it was "six days YOU SHALL work," and then you had a day of rest. But again, this was a sign and a shadow and a symbol of what was to come.

Because now there isn't any work for us to do - rather, we are to believe in, and trust in, JESUS' finished work. All that remains is the REST. That's why Jesus said "come to me and I will give you REST!" We don't need to observe the shadow anymore, because the reality has already come. Jesus said, "It is FINISHED!"

 

[Elife3]

Thank you for that article! Everything I know about the Sabbath is clearer now and this can refute the belief that Sunday worship is taking the mark of the beast. Is that a copyrighted article? I'd like to share this with someone.

 

[imaken]

Apparently there is still alot of honest questioning on this topic in the body of ecclesia our church.

Eccl12and13 wrote
. . . is it possible that it will be a different Sabbath at His return?

Jesus was talking about the same sabbath. The people who keep it will have to run for the hills before this is all over. The answer is No. It is the same sabbath.

Eccl12and13 wrote
My second question is this, Do you think the Sabbath day All Flesh will be worshiping on will differ from the one God originally established at creation, the 7th day Sabbath, . . .

. . . or do you think the "nations will have the option of serving God on whatever "they" choose?

I'm not sure why you worded this question this way. Simple answer. -- No on the first. Yes Same Sabbath. -- No on the second. No choosing about it.

Eccl12and13 wrote
Trust me, one way or another All Flesh will observe Gods' Sabbaths and high days. . . .
.and.
Again, this is speaking about a time during Christ 1000yr reign here on earth;

HOLD ON THERE brother / sister, the 1000 yrs is another topic. I disagree That Christ reigns on Earth physically at that time. That is another topic which I will not address in this post, other than the record made in this paragraph. I disagree with that. --
Yes all flesh, literal and spiritual will observe God's sequences in eternity, in His Way. -- Only after the restitution of all things will God dwell personally with man. Again, another topic is in order there.

holo wrote
Heb 4:8-9
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God
Jesus is the REALITY of the law and the prophets and the feasts etc etc, which were only SHADOWS of things to come. Jesus is everything to us, He is our widsom, He is our righteousness, He is our rest, He is our hope, He is our way, He is the truth the way and the Life.

Absolutely brother holo. We love Him because he first loved us. I consider the Sabbath or Sunday a personal decision based on "If you know these things happy are you if you do them" level.

You know the problem is; There are too many people out there who want to "Impose Righteousness" on other people with rules. Rules about Sunday keeping or Sabbath keeping. Rules for others about Christianity in general. God's word says the final arguments will be over this and other key doctrinal teachings. I don't care how one worships God and Jesus in this world. I do care how I worship. Just let me worship how I want to. The truth now, is the truth, of course.

Heb 4:8-9 -- For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God -- Heb 4:8-9

You are absolutely right.

Again.

imaken wrote
Adam failed that test of "walking with God." Antedeluvian man failed that test of "walking with God." -- Enoch got it right and God took him. -- The Jews failed that test, twice, no three times. -- Jesus got it right. God took Him. We know who killed Him. -- And the modern church is still failing the Sabbath test.

-- Eccl12and13 aptly quoted:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." -- Malachi3:6
Heb.13
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." -- Hebrews13:8

Your brother in Jesus, ken
Jesus comes. Period.

Jesus is the Light
Walk in the Light
No sunglasses needed

 

[Loveaboveall]

I always am amazed at how some can try so hard to prove that we are to keep 9 of God's commandments but forget the one commandment He says to REMEMBER!?

Secondly, I find it amazing why some try so hard to get rid of a command that FREEs us/gives us liberty to spend a full day with God. It seems to me that there are so many who want to get rid of the Sabbath so they can do whatever they want to instead of spending it with God?! Yes, I understand that some have said "Jesus is my Sabbath". Well let me ask you something. Are you at perfect spiritual rest? If not then you have not fully realized Jesus as your rest. Secondly, If Jesus is your rest then why do you not rest as Jesus did in the beginning as Hebrews 4 says?

Fundmentally there is a huge difference b/w the 10 commandments and the "law of Moses". This difference is magnified by how they were treated physically. The 10 commandments were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant. The law of Moses was placed on the side. What does this signify? There must be something different about them, right?

You see, the 10 commandments are the law that defines sin to us. The law of Moses contained the ceremonial laws that one was to do to deal with the sin problem they brought on themselves. The law of Moses was in place because the 10 commandments were broken. If the people had kept the 10 perfectly there would have been no reason for the ceremonial laws and sacrifices would there?

YES, Jesus is now our sacrifice, we no longer have to kill animals and sacrifice them in an earthly altar and sanctuary. Jesus is ministering for us in heaven in the perfect sanctuary. He is our sacrifice. He is how we now deal with our sin problem. But the fact that we still have sin means that the 10 commandments are still the standard of righteousness and what is right and wrong. The only way the definition of righteousness could change is if God changes, and we know this is impossible.

 

[cyberlizard]

it is great, you have three views that are generally accepted

one... the seventh day is a day of rest for all
two....the sabbath is for jews only as its part of the mosaic code
three.. the sabbath is not important and sunday will do just fine thanks.

how is it then, that when the manna came down from heaven (pre-Torah), there was none to be found on the seventh day, God gave none.... he expected his people to rest, as they were told on the sixth day to collect a double amount to see them through.

Like many things, christians tend only to see after christ and after the law, they seem to forget about all the things before the law.... clean/unclean foods, seventh day rest/sabbath, the festivals (part of the created order), the new moon celebrations (rosh choddesh) and much more. I think we need to move away from the bipolar way of seeing our walk with God.

 

[cavell]

The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. It was a shadow, a sign. Just like the snake on Moses' staff, or like the offering of animals etc etc. Just like we wouldn't go on performing any of these shadows today, there's no reason to be performing the shadow that is the sabbath day.

The commandment wasn't only to observe the sabbath, it was "six days YOU SHALL work," and then you had a day of rest. But again, this was a sign and a shadow and a symbol of what was to come.

Because now there isn't any work for us to do - rather, we are to believe in, and trust in, JESUS' finished work. All that remains is the REST. That's why Jesus said "come to me and I will give you REST!" We don't need to observe the shadow anymore, because the reality has already come. Jesus said, "It is FINISHED!"

Good...I agree

 

[Loveaboveall]

Heb 4:8-9
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

Jesus is the REALITY of the law and the prophets and the feasts etc etc, which were only SHADOWS of things to come. Jesus is everything to us, He is our widsom, He is our righteousness, He is our rest, He is our hope, He is our way, He is the truth the way and the Life.

As a gentile, I was never under the mosaic law to begin with. And now that Jesus has come, and I died with Him, and I'm dead to the law, and He IS my life, and the life that I live, I live IN HIM, and I rest every single day from my work, I obviously don't need to religiously observe a jewish sabbath. I'm free to if I want, and I'm not to judge those who do, but I'm under no such commandment.

Many people use Hebrews 4 to "prove" that they no longer are obligated to obey God and worship Him as our creator. What is missed in the whole discussion is what type of rests are spoken of in the passage...

Heb 4:4,9-10 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works...There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

What "works" did God cease from on the seventh day of creation? Was it a spiritual rest God took? Is God not ALWAYS at spiritual rest? Did He not cease from PHYSICAL work on the Sabbath of creation? Is not this the type of rest Heb 4:10 tells us that we will do if we have entered into the rest that remaineth?

These verses at their very core up hold the seventh day sabbath because they establish the fact that the sabbath began at creation. It is assumed this much in the passage itself. Since the Sabbath began at creation, it was observed BEFORE sin entered through Adam, meaning that it was perfect. It was not a shadow of things to come because there was no need for shadows in the Garden of Eden. Only when sin entered were shadows given of Christ to give hope and demonstrate to the people God's love.

On top of all that, THE SABBATH IS A BLESSING! Why do you want to give it up?

 

[GuardianShua]

Some where in the book of Exodus in mentions that the Jews were keeping the Sabbath in Egypt. I may be wrong but there may be a passage that talks about Abraham keeping the Sabbath, but I dont think the word Sabbath is used.

 

[holo]

On top of all that, THE SABBATH IS A BLESSING! Why do you want to give it up?

I'm not giving up anything. I rest when I want to and need to, and spiritually, Jesus IS my rest.

I have never been under any commandment to observe the sabbath anyway. It was, like the rest of the law, a shadow and a "schoolmaster" until Christ.

 

[cavell]

I'm not giving up anything. I rest when I want to and need to, and spiritually, Jesus IS my rest.

I have never been under any commandment to observe the sabbath anyway. It was, like the rest of the law, a shadow and a "schoolmaster" until Christ.

Spot On.....as I see it

 

[imaken]

Heb 4:8-9
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

On this point I agree with you bro holo, Jesus is the only One with the cure for this planet. In that FACT, I rest in Jesus. But Jesus is not a day. It is like comparing harvest time to the process of growing the fruit. It is like comparing building a car, to going on an afternoon ride.

What is missed in the whole discussion is what type of rests are spoken of in the passage...
Heb 4:4,9-10 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works...There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Exactly right as I see it. Note also, the complete fullfillment of that rest in Jesus our Lord and God does not happen until, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." -- Isaiah66:22-23

Only when sin entered were shadows given of Christ to give hope and demonstrate to the people God's love.

-- Exactly right. We must "remember" what is going on here on Earth.
"Only when sin entered . . ." -- That is the point on so many several levels. AMEN!
If sin had never entered the world, what day would we be resting with God?

I understand "resting in Jesus." But Jesus is not a day, which one works or rests on. I rest in Jesus not on the day of Jesus. Jesus is LORD. The Lord's day spoken of by the apostle John was understood as Sabbath. Excuse me, but the days of the week are hard wired into the motions of this world. God made the world spin in days, and rested on one of them. This is Supposed to Be a Fact of History. (See Revelation1:10; Mark2:28; Luke6:5; Ezekiel20:12; Genesis1:14)

Remember, God has an entire Universe to govern. -- Hebrews1:2
Remember, God is destroying sin once and for eternity. -- Nahum1:9
Remember, God changes not. -- Malachi3:6
Remember, God is the Creator, and Redeemer of Earth and Man. -- 1Peter4:19

So again, if God Himself respects one day in seven, because He rested on it from His work of creating. .AND. if the only way we can recognize Him is to be on "His wavelength" so to speak, . . .
then it is necessary right and proper for us to remember and recognize God as the creator.

It is not my fault others can't recognize and remember that principle. I thank God and Praise Jesus I remember. Like our Lord said about foot washing, "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." -- John13:13-17

The Israelites were given a test "that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." This was before God wrote the ten commandments on stone with His finger. The "ten commandments" are the expression and basis of God's character. To recognize and remember all of them is to recognize and remember all of Him, "... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." -- Exodus16:4 -- Psalm138:2

Again, this kind of walking with God, Adam and most other antedeluvians missed. The Israelites messed it up and missed it. And the modern "gentile" church is still missing it. Current "sabbathkeepers" are still messing it up. -- And so it goes.

Prophecy, in my understanding, clearly points out the current state of affairs in christendom. "For as the days of Noah..." We are going to miss it, just like they did. -- Matthew24:36-39

Sabbathkeeping does not directly effect our salvation, or make it happen. Salvation is an effect and affect of Jesus the Christ. Jesus is my Salvation. I rest in Him. Jesus' sacrifice is my salvation and life. I rest in Him in that. I Love Jesus. I want to also be on the same 'wavelength' as my Lord and God. To do that, i personally rest and remember Jesus and God as Creator of the Universe, and Redeemer of me. -- Ecclesiastes12:1 -- John1:3

n Jesus, ken
Jesus comes. Period.

Side notes: 1) I like to post Scripture as links to BibleGateway.com -- Until i am allowed to post outside links at forU.ms I will have to just post Scripture reference.
2) I have added "Ken's 1st Christian PowerChute Video" as a part of my forU.ms homepage. Check it out!!! The YouTube and GodTube embeds are at the bottom. -----> foru.ms/~imaken ----

 

[JHM]

Bye Now

 

[Loveaboveall]

I'm not giving up anything. I rest when I want to and need to, and spiritually, Jesus IS my rest.

I have never been under any commandment to observe the sabbath anyway. It was, like the rest of the law, a shadow and a "schoolmaster" until Christ.

Now we get to the heart of the matter.... Notice all the "I"s. Sounds a bet selfish to me. Instead of acknowldeging that Jesus is your creator and that He alone has the power to make a commandment and set aside a day as holy, you decide to do what you WANT to do and justify it by saying that you don't NEED to do it because Jesus has given you rest. Well He has given you rest with a day set aside at the end of every week you just don't want to accept what Jesus has given you.

It is like the man in a life boat out at sea. A rescue helicopter comes to rescue him and he sends them away saying that he has prayed God would save him and he will trust God, then a large ocean liner spots him and stops to help, same response. Then a fishing boat, same response. Finally after many days the man, with his last breath, asks God why he has not saved him. God responds by explaining to him that he sent a helicopter, an ocean liner, and a fishing boat and the man refused them all!

The sabbath was given by God for our rest. It was set aside at creation, BEFORE sin entered the world. A day that the creation could commune with the creator. This is God's day! How can you be so bold as to say that if you don't need rest and don't want it that you don't have to do what your creator has commanded? AND then expect Him to give you spiritual rest?

 

[cavell]

Now we get to the heart of the matter.... Notice all the "I"s. Sounds a bet selfish to me. Instead of acknowldeging that Jesus is your creator and that He alone has the power to make a commandment and set aside a day as holy, you decide to do what you WANT to do and justify it by saying that you don't NEED to do it because Jesus has given you rest. Well He has given you rest with a day set aside at the end of every week you just don't want to accept what Jesus has given you.

It is like the man in a life boat out at sea. A rescue helicopter comes to rescue him and he sends them away saying that he has prayed God would save him and he will trust God, then a large ocean liner spots him and stops to help, same response. Then a fishing boat, same response. Finally after many days the man, with his last breath, asks God why he has not saved him. God responds by explaining to him that he sent a helicopter, an ocean liner, and a fishing boat and the man refused them all!

The sabbath was given by God for our rest. It was set aside at creation, BEFORE sin entered the world. A day that the creation could commune with the creator. This is God's day! How can you be so bold as to say that if you don't need rest and don't want it that you don't have to do what your creator has commanded? AND then expect Him to give you spiritual rest?

You are incorrect chum.

In Jesus there is a rest that supercedes the O.T. sabbath.

 

[zeke37]

You are incorrect chum.

In Jesus there is a rest that supercedes the O.T. sabbath.

nicely said....