sabbath was made....

[VictorC]

premise of victors objection

1.the Holy Seventh day existed 1 time in the garden and never again until given at sinia.

The Biblical record shows that the seventh day was God's rest, and that seventh day was presented in absolute terms, where there was no 7th day after it (the next day was the 8th, followed by the 9th, etc.). This is a fact, and isn't an objection nor is it germane to the topic of discussion.

Conclusion by Victor: there was no sabbath from day 7 of creation until about 2600 years later, so sabbath is not valid and binding for christians.

You misunderstand the Biblical record - there was no sabbath on the 7th day of creation. The sabbath was "made for man", remember? It wasn't God's rest recorded in the Genesis account.

that is why victor does not accept any evedience contrary to his belief. victor has constructed a belief that cannot be challanged because it is a circular argument. he believes it becuse it is true, it is true because he believes it. when you test his belief, it falls apart and he get hostel.



the problem with the victors arguments is in order to establish there was no sabbath after the 7th day of creation you must....

1. have a written record of every day after the 7th day of creation, We have no such record. the records we do have, biblical & historical, favors the observence of the sabbath not the absence of sabbath, in fact babylon observed a sabbath but not in the exact same manner of jews, prior to the 1446 bc when the stone tablets were given.

2. must argue that there was no law, prior to the giving of the tablets of stone. the problem is the genesis record tell us other wise. stealing,lying cheating, adultry,murder,idolarty, courtness all are mentioned. victor would have you believe that 9 of the commandments are there but all 10 are not.

3. must do away with the weekily cycle. because at creation the 7 day cycle is established. if a weekely cycle exists out side the garden, and prior to the exodus. then Victor has a problem. it proves that

a)the weekely cycle was ment to be repeated
b. that the 7 days of the weekly cycle were based on the creation week
c. that since sabbath was part of the creation week, it is also part of the weekly cycle.

Do we have mention of the week cycle after creation prior to exodus? YES, We see this in the flood story of Noah, was a 7 day cycle being followed there. Noah knew no other reference for the weekly cycle other then the creation week.

From the misunderstanding you have about the Genesis account, you build a thesis that doesn't represent what I showed you in the slightest. Moses stated that the children of Israel had the law exclusive to themselves, and the ordinance for the sabbath is contained in that law. No one other than the children of Israel had the sabbath, which God affirmed as a sign exclusive between Himself and the children of Israel in Exodus 31:13. Moses further testified that the law containing the sabbath was never given to anyone prior to his own generation in Deuteronomy 5:2-3.

We have the weekly cycle today, but no sabbath. Likewise, the world had a weekly cycle before the law was given, but no sabbath. The sabbath was a created entity just as Jesus stated, and it didn't exist until it was created. That creation was concurrent with the manna experience, and there is no record of Israel's sabbath before that time.

 

[VictorC]

No it dosen't

So now you're contending that the sabbath was never "made for man"? This is contrary to your opening premise.

i have been arguing all along the creatated nature of the sabbath. the question is when was it created. when the first humans were created. and when was that.? at the beginning.

This is contrary to your previous statement. The time the sabbath was created was when the sabbath was created; there is no evidence otherwise.

victor you are dilusioanal, moses quotes genesis directly, and since he worte exodus after Genesis was written we must conclude that the creation account was what Moses had in mind when he put in in the commandment, to say other wise is not dealing with reality.

Ad hominem. You don't accept the Biblical record nor the testimony Moses provided, and your only defense is to attack the one showing it to you.

yes it dose. this is you just wiping away away evidence you don't like. Notice he did not say "sabbath was made for the Jews' as you would have us believe. victor Jesus him self says it was given to Humanity. Now victor are you going to accept the words of the Lord or stick to your errouns concluion. if you do victor then you are saying that God Him Self cannot say you. that is dangerous ground.

Prove to the eager audience here that Jews are not comprised of men and women. Prove to me that Jesus opined anything contrary to what He told Moses on Mount Sinai. Your inability to do this shows that you have no means to reconcile your argument with Scripture.

i agree with you conclusion that sabbat is not the sign of the covenat and that Christian are not under obligation to observe it as the jews.

We are not in agreement at all. The sabbath was a sign of the covenant relationship exclusively between God and the children of Israel, exactly as God testified in Exodus 31. I already documented Moses' testimony stating that the sabbath had no applicability outside the law mediated in his own hands, and it is evident the conclusion based on his testimony will continue to elude you. A failure to comprehend what Moses stated renders you unable to address what he said, and you aren't able to overturn a conclusion that you simply do not understand.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The Biblical record shows that the seventh day was God's rest, and that seventh day was presented in absolute terms, where there was no 7th day after it (the next day was the 8th, followed by the 9th, etc.). This is a fact, and isn't an objection nor is it germane to the topic of discussion.

victor there is no need to point out what is already know. I agree with you, there were other days after the 7th day. that is not in question at all.

You misunderstand the Biblical record

i am not sure here what you mean
1. orign of genesis
2. the structure
3. when it was written
4. historical record

- there was no sabbath on the 7th day of creation

. yes there was, why else would mosed quote it?

The sabbath was "made for man", remember?

It wasn't God's rest recorded in the Genesis account.

what text is this based on.

From the misunderstanding you have about the Genesis account,

victor you saying i have a misunderstanding of the Genesis account, but you have never pointed out what exactly i believe is wrong, most scholars agree with me. so unless they are all wrong and you alone are the sole infallable interperter of scripture, i must go with the evidence. you seem to think you are an expert on the book of Genesis and the acient Near East. What study have you done on this matter. NONE???

you build a thesis that doesn't represent what I showed you in the slightest.

what you sowed me is built on slight of hand, with texts wrenched from context, culture and commonsense.

Moses stated that the children of Israel had the law exclusive to themselves,

and yet we we see a knowledge of it present all the way throught Genesis. I agree they were the keeper of the orachles of God. god had blessed them with this duty.

No one other than the children of Israel had the sabbath, which God affirmed as a sign exclusive between Himself and the children of Israel in Exodus 31:13.

you are rigth victor no on else had the sabbath as the sign of the covenat. but there was a knowledge of the sabbbth prior to that.

Moses further testified that the law containing the sabbath was never given to anyone prior to his own generation in Deuteronomy 5:2-3.

you are right the stone tablets were not given to anyone else and a agreement to be God people, were not given to any one else. but that dose not mean that the law was unknown, maybe unkept and unobserved at times.

We have the weekly cycle today, but no sabbath. Likewise, the world had a weekly cycle before the law was given, but no sabbath. The sabbath was a created entity just as Jesus stated, and it didn't exist until it was created. That creation was concurrent with the manna experience, and there is no record of Israel's sabbath before that time.

you are resoning backwards. you are trying to say that to day is like it was at prior to exodus. how do you know that?

 

[VictorC]

i don't believe i was in error, you have not proven i was, you simply stated it as fact and left it at that.

As far as expanding on the definition, i did not. the definition of egeneto is to bring into being, the question then become when? when linked with the word, for humanity. it tells us when it was brought in to being. If it was mearly for the Jews as you assert, Christ would have stated so, but he did not., so victor cannot claim that is was only for the Jews or else he would have said so.

Cribstyl's observation of the terms used is accurate, and represents what I have been stating all along. There is no link with mankind's origin as you suggested, and it is an argument made from a vacuum on your part. I believe both of us would appreciate a response to Cribstyl's observation.

 

[VictorC]

you are resoning backwards. you are trying to say that to day is like it was at prior to exodus. how do you know that?

An answer to my post would be appreciated.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Cribstyl's observation of the terms used is accurate, and represents what I have been stating all along. There is no link with mankind's origin as you suggested, and it is an argument made from a vacuum on your part. I believe both of us would appreciate a response to Cribstyl's observation.

of course you like it your are on here side. she stated it simply, which you should take a lesson from and yet I still disagree. no victor there is a link to the orgin of the sabbath and the orgin of humanity, this postion is taken by may Greek scholars. we can do this all day vic. i can counter you all day. every postion you take is built on, assumption , lack of evidence and ignoring evidence you don't like.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

An answer to my post would be appreciated.

go back a look at it.

 

[Cribstyl]

of course you like it your are on here side. she stated it simply, which you should take a lesson from and yet I still disagree. no victor there is a link to the orgin of the sabbath and the orgin of humanity, this postion is taken by may Greek scholars. we can do this all day vic. i can counter you all day. every postion you take is built on, assumption , lack of evidence and ignoring evidence you don't like.

Do you live in the Huntsville area?

 

[Cribstyl]

Cribstyl's observation of the terms used is accurate, and represents what I have been stating all along. There is no link with mankind's origin as you suggested, and it is an argument made from a vacuum on your part. I believe both of us would appreciate a response to Cribstyl's observation.

You're telling the truth

I dont expect him to even try to understand our point of view.
(Hint) If a man dont trust the bible as the source of truth, he will always qoute other sources and dispute what the scripture says.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You're telling the truth

I dont expect him to even try to understand our point of view.
(Hint) If a man dont trust the bible as the source of truth, he will always qoute other sources and dispute what the scripture says.

no you are tellin your OPINION, i understand your point of view, i just don't agree with it. that is what you don't seem to be able to grasp. this is not the first time i have encounterd victor.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Do you live in the Huntsville area?

thank-God no.

 

[VictorC]

there was no sabbath on the 7th day of creation.

yes there was, why else would mosed quote it?

Moses didn't quote a sabbath in the creation account. The closest that you are going to get to that is where Moses uses the seventh day as the impetus to ordain the sabbath in Exodus 20:11, in the same manner using the same sentence structure he did when he referred to deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15. The impetus to ordain the target is not the target itself, and this has been pointed out in past discussions to you. In both Exodus and Deuteronomy, a single event in the past is given as the reason to ordain the sabbath.

The sabbath was "made for man", remember? It wasn't God's rest recorded in the Genesis account.

what text is this based on.

You don't remember the text of Mark 2:27, which was introduced by you in the OP of this thread?

victor you saying i have a misunderstanding of the Genesis account, but you have never pointed out what exactly i believe is wrong, most scholars agree with me. so unless they are all wrong and you alone are the sole infallable interperter of scripture, i must go with the evidence. you seem to think you are an expert on the book of Genesis and the acient Near East. What study have you done on this matter. NONE???

We aren't weighing opinion here, and what you wrote above is ad hominem and ad populum, both of which are logical fallacies. When pressed to obtain evidence from the Scriptures for your thesis, this one Standard is ignored by you. You can't provide anything contrary to what Moses recorded for us. The 7th day was God's rest, and was not observed by mankind, and the event recorded happened only once, which is antithetical to the periodic nature of the sabbath.

Moses stated that the children of Israel had the law exclusive to themselves

and yet we we see a knowledge of it present all the way throught Genesis. I agree they were the keeper of the orachles of God. god had blessed them with this duty.

The children of Israel didn't have the oracles of God until those oracles were codified and handed to Moses. The pre-existence of the Mosaic covenant in the Genesis account is fiction you suggest without any evidence, and you contradict the testimony Moses gave in Deuteronomy 5 that the Mosaic covenant was unknown before his own generation.

you are rigth victor no on else had the sabbath as the sign of the covenat. but there was a knowledge of the sabbbth prior to that.

In comparison to Moses testifying that the sabbath doesn't exist outside the law mediated by him, the sabbath didn't exist prior to the manna experience, and Jesus distinguishing the sabbath apart from the seventh day of creation, you tell another story quite removed from their testimony. The Authority of the sources you contradict causes me to reject your opinion as one that has no basis on anything tangible.

 

[VictorC]

of course you like it your are on here side. she stated it simply, which you should take a lesson from and yet I still disagree. no victor there is a link to the orgin of the sabbath and the orgin of humanity, this postion is taken by may Greek scholars. we can do this all day vic. i can counter you all day. every postion you take is built on, assumption , lack of evidence and ignoring evidence you don't like.

Simply stating that there is a link between the creation account and the time the sabbath was created without offering any supporting evidence is not going to be accepted by anyone. Scripture documents the origin of each event at completely disparate times separated by thousands of years.

 

[VictorC]

You're telling the truth

I dont expect him to even try to understand our point of view.
(Hint) If a man dont trust the bible as the source of truth, he will always qoute other sources and dispute what the scripture says.

I quite agree with your assessment.

 

[Cribstyl]

i don't believe i was in error, you have not proven i was, you simply stated it as fact and left it at that.

As far as expanding on the definition, i did not. the definition of egeneto is to bring into being, the question then become when? when linked with the word, for humanity. it tells us when it was brought in to being. If it was mearly for the Jews as you assert, Christ would have stated so, but he did not., so victor cannot claim that is was only for the Jews or else he would have said so.

The definition references sabbath coming into being for man whenever God gave it...

 

[Cribstyl]

thank-God no.

Well, I was hopeing to show you that I am a male not a female.:o

 

[Adventist Dissident]

We aren't weighing opinion here, and what you wrote above is ad hominem and ad populum, both of which are logical fallacies. When pressed to obtain evidence from the Scriptures for your thesis, this one Standard is ignored by you.

you are rambling.

. The 7th day was God's rest, and was not observed by mankind, and the event recorded happened only once, which is antithetical to the periodic nature of the sabbath.

you cannot prove that there was only one sabbath day, all you can prove is that there was on recorded day in genesis. unless you look at all the evidence from history and archealogy you cannot say that. it is like an atheist saying there is no God, well unless you've been to every corner of the universe and you can be that every where all the time to see if god shows up. you can't say there is no God, in the process you would show your self to be a god.

just like you cannot say that the there was not sabbath, out side the Garden. to say that victor is to say you have all knowledge of all day of ever peice of recorded history. you do not so you cannot say that.

The children of Israel didn't have the oracles of God until those oracles were codified and handed to Moses. The pre-existence of the Mosaic covenant in the Genesis account is fiction you suggest without any evidence, and you contradict the testimony Moses gave in Deuteronomy 5 that the Mosaic covenant was unknown before his own generation.

the law of god was in existance before they were written in stone. the sins were regarded as sins against God himself. SEE joseph and potifhers wife. do we need to list all the text for you or will you allow yourself to see this in the scripture

In comparison to Moses testifying that the sabbath doesn't exist outside the law mediated by him, the sabbath didn't exist prior to the manna experience, and Jesus distinguishing the sabbath apart from the seventh day of creation, you tell another story quite removed from their testimony. The Authority of the sources you contradict causes me to reject your opinion as one that has no basis on anything tangible.

victor you just like to talk

 

[VictorC]

you cannot prove that there was only one sabbath day, all you can prove is that there was on recorded day in genesis.

This misrepresents what I have posted to you.
The point that has been supported with Scripture is that the assumption that there was any sabbath recorded in Genesis is in error. You should search for evidence showing a sabbath at the time you assume there was, as the exercise will fill the missing pieces in your own comprehension of Scripture.

The very text you began this thread with from Mark 2:27 refutes the assumption you keep repeating, as has been shown to you.

Other points in your post contradict Moses, and they have been responded to in earlier posts you haven't provided an answer for.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This misrepresents what I have posted to you.

no it dosen't you have to shut out any informantion you don't like. is it any wonder that the more information have the more they disagree with you. that is who

The point that has been supported with Scripture is that the assumption that there was any sabbath recorded in Genesis is in error.

the problem with your argument is that your premise about Genesis is the problem, Genesis is about origins and historical roots, not about religous worishp and practices. you are puting a demand on genesis that it was never intended to fulfill. you are asking Genesis to met you adjenda on your terms not on the term that it was written for. Genesis was written to keep track of the promise

genesis was written by eyewittness to record only specifice events, that is the premise which you must approach genesis. you don't have enough information to draw the conclusion you want. sorry vic. you conclusions is premature.

The very text you began this thread with from Mark 2:27 refutes the assumption you keep repeating, as has been shown to you.

no it dose not, it support the view that sabbath was created at the beginning and it was intended by God to be for benifet. when the lord himself say it created for humanity, sorry vic i will go with HIM on this matter.

you misuse and misinterpretation of the scripture is the problem. but since you are so unreasonable this the last post i will talk to ever about. you are going back on the ignore list. you are noting but diruptive

your are mind set and methodology is like the eveloutionist who says .....

unless you accept my premise that....

a. there is no god
b. things developed over long periods of time with out divine interference i won't allow any discussion to take place.
c. i won't allow any information that goes against my theroy, i will only what i validates my beliefs. sorry vic. your circular logic will not be tollerated. you have to deny information inorder to hold to your postion.

 

[VictorC]

I simplified your post to extract the response that was germane to the point I made:

The point that has been supported with Scripture is that the assumption that there was any sabbath recorded in Genesis is in error. You should search for evidence showing a sabbath at the time you assume there was, as the exercise will fill the missing pieces in your own comprehension of Scripture.

the problem with your argument is that your premise about Genesis is the problem, Genesis is about origins and historical roots, not about religous worishp and practices. you are puting a demand on genesis that it was never intended to fulfill. you are asking Genesis to met you adjenda on your terms not on the term that it was written for. Genesis was written to keep track of the promise

genesis was written by eyewittness to record only specifice events, that is the premise which you must approach genesis. you don't have enough information to draw the conclusion you want. sorry vic. you conclusions is premature.

The argument I stated is one that you didn't respond to. What eludes you is that there is a very good reason that you can't provide evidence to suggest that there was even one sabbath prior to Moses receiving it - there is none.

Look again at what Scripture testifies:

Deuteronomy 4
7 "For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8 "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?​

Moses asks the rhetorical question that needs no answer: no other nation received the law he mediated from God when he received it at Mount Sinai.

• The law Moses received contains the ordinance for the sabbath.
• No other nation had that law.

Conclusion: The sabbath doesn't exist outside the law mediated by Moses, and the sabbath has no applicability to anyone outside the covenant from Mount Sinai.

Continuing:

Deuteronomy 5
1 ¶ And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them.
2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
4 "The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.
5 "I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:​

This is followed by the covenant Moses received on Mount Sinai and conveyed to the children of Israel at Horeb, which was the Ten Commandments.

• The Ten Commandments did not exist prior to Moses' own generation; they were never conveyed to the fathers of the children of Israel present at the base of Mount Sinai. This is also true of the sabbath exclusive to the law that ordained it.
• The same attendants at the inauguration of the covenant from Mount Sinai received the sabbath along with the manna, that originated at the same time "that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" (Exodus 16:4).
• The manna didn't exist prior to Moses, and the same origin is true for the sabbath.

The sabbath commandment presented in Exodus 20:11 uses the same sentence structure that Deuteronomy 5:15 does, showing this pattern:

impetus --> therefore --> result​

• Both Exodus 20:11 and Deuteronomy 5:15 refer to a single event in the past as the reason to bless the sabbath (Exo. 20:11) or to command Israel to keep the sabbath (Deut 5:15).
• It should be noted that it is the result following "therefore" in Exodus 20:11 that times when the sabbath was blessed, 2500 years after the 7th day was blessed according to Genesis 2:3.

Jesus differentiated God's rest recorded in Genesis 2 apart from the sabbath in Mark 2:27-28:

He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.​

The sabbath was made for man, showing it was not relevant to God's rest recorded in Genesis 2. We already know from the testimony Moses gave that the sabbath was exclusive solely to the children of Israel when it was created for them, and they alone were the sole subset of anthropos the sabbath was applicable to. We also know from what Jesus stated above is that He claimed Lordship over the sabbath, a natural sovereignty He retains over the law He created (see Matthew 17:24-26 where He taught Peter about the relationship the King has over His created law, and that law has no applicability to the King nor to His adopted children).

We also know that God's rest recorded in Genesis 2 was a single and specific rest, which occurred only once in history and God's rest never ended: "on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done" (Genesis 2:2). Hebrews 4:4 quotes Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's rest, and verse 1 of the same passage shows how His rest was never attained by those prior to the Gospel. This epistle was addressed to those who already had the sabbath for 1500 years or so, and the sabbath never provided the rest that originated on the 7th day of creation.

Scripture documents God's rest, which was a single event and has been permanent since its inception, and this is His rest recorded in the Genesis account. Contrast that to the sabbath, on which man was commanded to rest -not God- and was periodic, and ended each periodic 7th day of the week (relative, in contrast to the absolute 7th day of creation). The sabbath was not permanent, was not God's rest, and has no origin outside of Moses. Your notion that there was even a single sabbath to be found in the Genesis account is not compliant with Scripture's testimony otherwise.

This is the reason you can't find evidence for a sabbath origin prior to Moses, and an entire thread initiated to dance around this fact still leaves you unable to support your premise contending otherwise.