My mother helped me to know God, before I could even read a bible. Abram had no problem without a bible are you saying he did not have a clue? That may be the means you need to operate but don't assume the same for all others.
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Ok...then kindly tell me how you know God in Christ with out the bible please? You can pray and talk to a god all day, but until you get to know Him through His word first, you have'nt a clue.
AT
My mother helped me to know God, before I could even read a bible. Abram had no problem without a bible are you saying he did not have a clue? That may be the means you need to operate but don't assume the same for all others.
My mother helped me to know God, before I could even read a bible.
And Abraham had a relationship with God unlike you and I...you live in another dispensation unlike Abrahams day when perhaps God spoke directly to Abraham and others audibly, so you can use that excuse.
So how does one today understand and know Gods will without the bible?
AT
Yet even the founders of the Christian church did not have the Bible, a couple of centuries later they came to an agreement on what was relevant. Being thought relevant, being thought accurate was the foundation for Biblical acceptance, yet here we see people trying to criticize people reasoning in favor of accepting what people's reasoning put together. It is a strange turn of events, perhaps that strangeness is more reflective of why post modernism exists.
The other assumption is that the Old Testament stories were all literally true. So that you can say God audibly spoke to Abraham and thus they were so much different then the rest of us, or the rest of the world even back then. Romans chapter 3 makes it clear that God speaks to people through their conscience. The great equilaizer. However if one ignores their conscience, ignores their reasoning abilities and relies only upon written words they have little to go on...which is why it is really just tradition that drives them, they have given over thinking to others.
1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision. 2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see; 3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep; 4 That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I. 5 And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down. 6 And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again. 7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him. 8 And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child. 9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place. 10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (1 Sa 3:1-10). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
That is why we call it a post modern christian world.
Yes your mother helped you to understand God as a child...even the bible tells parents they have this duty, seeing children lack the skills for comprehensive reading.
And Abraham had a relationship with God unlike you and I...you live in another dispensation unlike Abrahams day when perhaps God spoke directly to Abraham and others audibly, so you can use that excuse.
So how does one today understand and know Gods will without the bible?
AT
Would it be fair to say that sin exists even in the absence of the ability to read a Bible or the law contained in it?
BFA
Joseph thought sleeping with Potiphar's wife was a sin.....he had no bible or written law.
How do societies that we consider 'heathen' in the past and present know that killing is wrong?
God is not limited in His methods to communicate with humanity
My relationship with God includes the audible method, this is something other Christian people have testified to. Maybe God has tried it with you but you were not listening?
So are you saying that God speaks to you out loud and you hear Him? That is what I mean by audible.
AT
And just what stories don't you think where true? Many of the stories where written as historical narratives and have no indication of being allagories.
The bible also says that God called Samuel but I betcha you don't believe it either. Oh and btw...its Romans chapter 1 or 2 that you are refering to. The conscience of believers aught to be driven by Holy Spirit and the written word of God...if not, then one can not claim a biblical world view.
AT
Here you simply assume your tradition saying "written as historical narratives" I don't restrict the Old Testament writings that way. Now you can assume that God really wanted to destroy Israel and start a new nation from Moses and Moses just talked Him out of it, or that God was testing Moses by God lying and you can believe in talking snakes and God destroying the whole world with a flood, not just punishing man but killing most all animal life on the planet or you can believe that God got upset at the Tower of Babel because man was working too well together (traditional Christianity rewrites the story to say they were trying to build a tower to escape a potential flood). I don't believe those are literal historical narratives. But then I don't believe something has to have happened to provide a learning situation, I don't believe that unknown ancient writers had to have a kind of extra special connection to God, because if they did they provided little evidence as witnessed by their cruelty and subjugation of women and children and other nations. They would not have produced laws that stone people for gathering wood on the Sabbath.
The evidence is not really on your side in this debate, only your assumptions. Of course we want our intelligence and reasoning to be God directed. But unfortunately many think that it is only guided by the Holy Spirit if their tradition is accepted.
Wow.... simply amazing!
Yes it is, if we had not been indoctrinated into assuming that a story had to be historical how different we would have understood God. Not had to feel that God was out there killing people when they did something wrong or that God was pleased when one nation killed and enslaved another. How much different if we had listened to the later prophets who said that it was not about sacrifices but about love and mercy and justice.
It is no wonder so many try to cling to their old religion even when it makes so little sense. They were indoctrinated to not think about what they read but to parrot what they had been taught. And the better one parroted the more holy he or she was assumed to be. It is amazing indeed.
Who said that God was pleased?
And you know that is not what I meant from my "Wow" statement.
Interesting how Moses continued to love God and have a relationship with Him even with all that "killing" going on.
Here you simply assume your tradition saying "written as historical narratives" I don't restrict the Old Testament writings that way.
Now you can assume that God really wanted to destroy Israel and start a new nation from Moses and Moses just talked Him out of it, or that God was testing Moses by God lying and you can believe in talking snakes and God destroying the whole world with a flood, not just punishing man but killing most all animal life on the planet or you can believe that God got upset at the Tower of Babel because man was working too well together (traditional Christianity rewrites the story to say they were trying to build a tower to escape a potential flood). I don't believe those are literal historical narratives. But then I don't believe something has to have happened to provide a learning situation, I don't believe that unknown ancient writers had to have a kind of extra special connection to God, because if they did they provided little evidence as witnessed by their cruelty and subjugation of women and children and other nations. They would not have produced laws that stone people for gathering wood on the Sabbath.
The evidence is not really on your side in this debate, only your assumptions. Of course we want our intelligence and reasoning to be God directed. But unfortunately many think that it is only guided by the Holy Spirit if their tradition is accepted.
I don't know if you had writting courses or studied different types of literature in college, but I can assure you I did. One does not have to have tradition as a crutch to understand what types of literature one is reading. Now if you believe its historical fiction, thats your undersanding and you have that right. I find nothing contained in the whole of the text that suggest it as such. Some where down the line, someone or something got a hold of you and you have been in the tank for unbelief ever sense.
You have an very unfavorable biblical world view from what I can gather from your postings, and enough negatives and unbelief on your side for one to question if you really believe God in Christ through the gospel alone.
God has a right to do what ever He wants to do...after all He is God, or have you forgot, or did you really know that?
If God wanted to let all of humanity die in their sin, who are you to question that! Or are you to busy trying to shape your god into what you want Him to be...lets see.... what kind of picture is this.... You attend a SDA church, you don't believe in the bible, you don't believe in the garden of Eden, you don't believe God talked audibly with people, you don't believe Christ died as our vacarious substitute, What else don't you believe? I assume we can scratch Hebrews chapter 11 off of your list.
AT
You think you are defending the Bible and defending God but you are making God out to be like an irrational human someone who is cruel and unjust someone who we must serve or He will kill us. Nice.
Wow as MVA would say. A dramatic demonstration of just how it must be their tradition or you can't believe in God.
Then you continued assumptions based upon things I never said, but I am used to that from you.
Now you can assume that God really wanted to destroy Israel and start a new nation from Moses and Moses just talked Him out of it, or that God was testing Moses by God lying and you can believe in talking snakes and God destroying the whole world with a flood, not just punishing man but killing most all animal life on the planet or you can believe that God got upset at the Tower of Babel because man was working too well together (traditional Christianity rewrites the story to say they were trying to build a tower to escape a potential flood). I don't believe those are literal historical narratives. ..., I don't believe that unknown ancient writers had to have a kind of extra special connection to God, because if they did they provided little evidence as witnessed by their cruelty and subjugation of women and children and other nations. They would not have produced laws that stone people for gathering wood on the Sabbath.
It is a shame how tradition dictates so much causing people to behave so judgmentally and ultimately irrationally. Saying to just believe it as their tradition has said and because that is the way God is.
If He wants to kill everything who are you to complain about God He can do whatever. Strange it did not seem with the life of Christ who came to be a servant that God is interested in doing whatever. You think you are defending the Bible and defending God but you are making God out to be like an irrational human someone who is cruel and unjust someone who we must serve or He will kill us. Nice.
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