Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[RC_NewProtestants]

I believe you mis-understood all the while.


AT

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Right because you offered so many answers. You are a piece of work.

 

[sentipente]

Now I find it interesting that sentipente has the title of a pastor in his profile, and he post regularly on this section of the forum, which leads me to think he is a Adventist pastor in Indiana.

So why would he avoid the questions I posted to him about 1Tim 4:10? And then Victor asked question of him pertaining to that text, and then mva1985 ask the same question.

This is another great example of those who refuse to debate in good conscience. He was the first to put that text forward as a rebutle to one of my postings but then when asked questions about something he started, feeling backed into a corner, he refuses to answer the question but playes his games.

If you think that it is proper to avoid the meaning of a text by showing how the suggested meaning conflicts with an unproven position you may hold there is no basis for discussion between us. After you and the others can honestly assess the meaning of 1 Tim. 4:10 we can then proceed to the other questions you wish to raise. I am immune to any of the negative characterizations you may wish to throw my way.

 

[sentipente]

Answering a question with a question does not provide an answer.

Nor is it honest to ascribe to another what he has clearly not said. I am not going to knock down your strawmen for you. You can do that for yourself. Stick to the pertinent issues and we have something to talk about. I am here to seek meaning rather than to defend an agenda.

 

[sentipente]

I'm not a Mormon. So can you answer the question or not?

You need to show how the question is relevant. I am not here to go off on every rabbit trail you with to lay out.

If you think that Mormonism is implied in your question why did you ask the question?

 

[moicherie]

Point? What point? moicherie has yet to make a point, and you don't have a point, either!
Victor

Just because you disagree with the point made it does not mean the point does not exist.

And since you have yet to realise or refuse to realise or just enjoy making false points about my responses I will choose not to respond to your post on the topic.

 

[Adventtruth]

If you think that it is proper to avoid the meaning of a text by showing how the suggested meaning conflicts with an unproven position you may hold there is no basis for discussion between us. After you and the others can honestly assess the meaning of 1 Tim. 4:10 we can then proceed to the other questions you wish to raise. I am immune to any of the negative characterizations you may wish to throw my way.

Some of those here have real issues when it comes to honest debates. It was you who brought the text into the discussion, but you can't answer when asked about the text? I wonder why.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Nor is it honest to ascribe to another what he has clearly not said. I am not going to knock down your strawmen for you. You can do that for yourself. Stick to the pertinent issues and we have something to talk about. I am here to seek meaning rather than to defend an agenda.

Well I was simply trying to get meaning from you on 1Tim 4:10 which you will not give.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Right because you offered so many answers. You are a piece of work.

Well the best thing for you to do in that case is to seek a greater understanding by asking me. I could have spared you the frustration.

AT

 

[sentipente]

Some of those here have real issues when it comes to honest debates. It was you who brought the text into the discussion, but you can't answer when asked about the text? I wonder why.

AT

Those herrings won't work with me. I told you what the text obviously means. It is up to you to state why the text does not mean what it clearly means. I don't play the rabbit trails game.

 

[sentipente]

I'll ask again sentipente....Can you kindly explain to me in what sense are all men saved? Is this a eternal salvation? This is the passage that you introduced into this argument, therefore it with you to unfold its meaning as you would empty a treasure chest. Lets look to the passage.

(1Ti 4:10) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


1)How is the first group who are saved different for the last group who especially believe?

Ah! I missed this post. Because ALL refers to the set of all men while those who believe is a subset of ALL men. This is so obvious that I almost feel stupid explaining it to you.

2) Does it mean he brings all to heaven...especially those who believe?

Kindly make sense of this please.

This second question assumes facts not in evidence. You have equated salvation with going to heaven. You are assuming that the evidence in the Bible that men have a hope of going to a place outside of earth called heaven means that God has promised to bring men to such a place. Unless you can prove those assumptions to be true the question has no meaning.

 

[VictorC]

Nor is it honest to ascribe to another what he has clearly not said. I am not going to knock down your strawmen for you. You can do that for yourself. Stick to the pertinent issues and we have something to talk about. I am here to seek meaning rather than to defend an agenda.

It is honest discourse to question something which she did write.
Your bow out of discussion is slightly more eloquent than moicherie's, but the result is the same - you've been unable to provide answers on this and on other threads, and you've demonstrated grave reluctance to tackle the subjects that you have initiated yourself.

That's a lot of straw flying around.
You're the one who brought it, as I recall.

Victor

 

[moicherie]

It is honest discourse to question something which she did write.
That's a lot of straw flying around.
You're the one who brought it, as I recall.

Victor

Ok you keep harping on about this please repost what I wrote that you are debating and lets deal with this once and for all. (head bangs against brick wall)

 

[Adventtruth]

Ah! I missed this post. Because ALL refers to the set of all men while those who believe is a subset of ALL men. This is so obvious that I almost feel stupid explaining it to you.

Thanks for your responce. Lets look at the text again.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Tim 4:10 (KJV)

Here's clarity of my question. The text says that God is the saviour of all me.

1) From this we draw the conclussion that all men are saved.

20 In what sense are all men saved?

3) Is this eternally saved?

4) If not what type of salvation is this.


The text then goes on to say: specially of those that believe

So we have two groups as you have rightly stated and understood. The first set is saved. The subset is saved.

1) To what degree does the subset gain by believing that the first group does not?

2) How does not believing gain salvation.

3) What happens to those who don't believe?

AT wrote: Does it mean he brings all to heaven...especially those who believe?

Originally Posted by sentipente

This second question assumes facts not in evidence. You have equated salvation with going to heaven.

Kindly explain what is ment by saved in 1Tim 4:10 please.

Originally Posted by sentipente

You are assuming that the evidence in the Bible that men have a hope of going to a place outside of earth called heaven means that God has promised to bring men to such a place. Unless you can prove those assumptions to be true the question has no meaning.

The bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:16-17 (KJV)

One can gather from this text that the righteous will be in heaven with Christ. These are the saved of God. Lets assume whereever Christ is, is heaven, on earth, or some other distant place.

Is the text in 1Tim 4:10, in your opinion, speaking of the two groups going to heaven with Christ, or only one group? IF its only one group, which group, and how and in what sense is that group not gaining heaven, saved?

Thanks.


AT

 

[sentipente]

AT, the problem comes from supposing that Paul was writing a treatise when he was merely addressing a problem. The problem was that his audience were in doubt about their condition. The letter was written to assure them that since Christ saved all men then it was certain that those who had believed on him were saved. It is a letter of assurance. I find it amazing that at the same time that Christians claim that Christ went to all lengths to save men the same Christians are willing to go to all lenghts to deny to some the salvation he effected. The language of the text is simple and clear. There is no need to muddy the waters with dogma.

 

[sentipente]

The bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:16-17 (KJV)

One can gather from this text that the righteous will be in heaven with Christ.

See how you have insinuated your dogma into the text. There is no mention of heaven yet you find a way to say that this is what the text is saying. "So shall we ever be with the Lord." That's all the text says.

 

[mva1985]

Originally Posted by Adventtruth
The bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:16-17 (KJV)

One can gather from this text that the righteous will be in heaven with Christ.
​

See how you have insinuated your dogma into the text. There is no mention of heaven yet you find a way to say that this is what the text is saying. "So shall we ever be with the Lord." That's all the text says.

There is no mention of heaven? Look again.

We meet the Lord in the air (many eons pass) and so shall we ever be with the Lord - in the air?

I think it is safe to assume that the Lord will take us to some destination (i.e. heaven).

 

[mva1985]

AT, the problem comes from supposing that Paul was writing a treatise when he was merely addressing a problem. The problem was that his audience were in doubt about their condition. The letter was written to assure them that since Christ saved all men then it was certain that those who had believed on him were saved. It is a letter of assurance. I find it amazing that at the same time that Christians claim that Christ went to all lengths to save men the same Christians are willing to go to all lenghts to deny to some the salvation he effected. The language of the text is simple and clear. There is no need to muddy the waters with dogma.

Rev. 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

The sinner denies themselves salvation.

 

[sentipente]

There is no mention of heaven? Look again.

We meet the Lord in the air (many eons pass) and so shall we ever be with the Lord - in the air?

I think it is safe to assume that the Lord will take us to some destination (i.e. heaven).

I see that you can only come to your conclusion by added to the text and making huge assumptions. Amazing.

 

[Adventtruth]

sentipente...if thats all you have to offer, then lets end this discussion. I would hate to be accused and called names by pushing the issue. Thanks for not attacking.

AT

 

[mva1985]

I see that you can only come to your conclusion by added to the text and making huge assumptions. Amazing.

I did not add to the text. You said that there is no mention of Heaven yet if you look at the text the word Heaven is clearly there.