Sabbath, Hell,

[shiftyQ]

I'm a new believer of about 2 months.

I've read equaly good arguments for and against for these points from christians using scripture. I have also poured many hours of reading the bible also. Regarding the Sabbath. Why is it that it's relevant to keep the other nine commandments yet not this one? It is a common theme that I come accross. The other thought I see is, Jesus wiped those away and now it is based on faith in him only. The third argument I see is we must keep all of them. Even though I can't quote scripture, I do remember reading excerpts from scripture about keeping the commandments.

Hell. My understanding is this.
1. Hell was made for Satan and the fallen angels.
2. We can only receive eternal life as a gift from God upon salvation.

My questions are
1. If we can only receive eternal life from salvation, how is it that the unsaved also receive eternal life burning forever in hell?

2. People who believe in an eternal suffering say "God loves us so much that it hurts Him beyond belief to send us there". So if it hurts Him so much and He created the universe and has control over everything, why is it He can't make it so that our souls are snuffed out forever?

Considering I've already read pages of scriptures quoted on these matters, and probably out of context a lot of the time, what I'm looking for is peoples opinions based on their faith, prayer and journey so far.
I say this because the websites I have visited came across like the individuals each had an agenda to push.

I just received a phonecall from Restored Church of God whilst writing this. Any thoughts? Impressed that they didn't try to hook me into anything.

Thanks

 

[timf]

1. If we can only receive eternal life from salvation, how is it that the unsaved also receive eternal life burning forever in hell?

You are to be congratulated for seeing right to the heart of the matter. The answer is that the unsaved do not have eternal life. If humans had intrinsic eternal life, why would God have kept Adam and Eve away from the tree of life? The unsaved are to suffer according to their works.

Why is it that it's relevant to keep the other nine commandments yet not this one?

The commandments were given to the nation of Israel. In particular the Sabbath was for a sign for Israel.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

In the sermon on the mount Jesus took two of the ten commandments and and using lust for adultery and anger for murder expanded on them such that it became evident that no one could keep them. He was telling those who thought they were righteous because hey had kept the commandments that they were not as righteous as they thought.

Jesus offered a New Covenant with Israel. This had been prophesied by Jeremiah. In this new covenant people who place their faith in Jesus receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Paul writes about this distinction in Romans chapter seven and eight. In chapter seven he relates the frustration of trying to keep the law in his flesh. He contrasts this with the new life he has in the Spirit in chapter eight.

This helps us understand verses such as the one that says that love (essentially selflessness) is the fulfillment of the law.

You are to be commended for a Berean approach to what is presented to you. If you walk in truth and cry out for wisdom (which God freely gives), the Lord should keep you from following paths laid out for Christians to lead them astray.

 

[DADDY LOVES ME]

While the 10 commandments are a great guideline from God regarding our behavior, It is not our law anymore. God sent his Son so that we could be free from this list of do's and don'ts. God kind of rethought the whole old testament set-up. Because we are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God, He knew that we could never keep these Commandments and decided that the only way for us to receive Salvation was through the death and resurrection of his Son Jesus. He then said that he would send us a 'helper' in the form of the Holy Spirit, who would dwell within us. Becoming a spirt-filled Christian is the best decision every day!!

I feel so free, now that I understand that it's OK to do something wrong. The Holy Spirit soon convicts me of it, I repent and thats it. God knows every sin that we will ever commit. It is great to rest in the peace of knowing that they are already forgiven through the precious blood of Jesus!

As for the Sabbath, for health reasons its nice to have a days rest, but I would never feel guilty about doing something on a Sunday. Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath.

May I encourage you to learn or research more of the New Testament, as there is some exciting stuff in there which is more relevant to the age that we live in.

God Bless

 

[asiyreh]

If you get a chance Shifty, find a Seventh Day adventist church near you and have a chat with the local pastor there.

I'll put my cards on the table. I attend a seventh day adventist church... however, I don't usually come here proselytising for them. I like help people find a church and set of beliefs they can relate to on a spiritual level.

The adventists believe the 10 commandments are still in play. Some of the right wing of the church are a little works righteous. But the Gospel is flourishing again within the main body.

Also they believe in a doctrine called annihilation which as you request

why is it He can't make it so that our souls are snuffed out forever?

Well the adventists believe that this will be so. This is a very defensible biblical doctrine and allot of mainstream Christians are moving toward the idea.

Please don't think I'm some type of recruiting sargent because I'm not. I recently recommended one of the other new members study the doctrines of calvinism because I feel it may relate to their own ideology. This stands in direct contradiction to the Armenian view held by adventism. So again I haven't got some type of agenda.

Ultimately salvation is in Christ alone but I feel you may be very comfortable in the adventist community. Check it out, you might be surprised

 

[gypsygirl]

Shifty,
Regarding the issue of the Sabbath, it's difficult to make a legalistic viewpoint for Saturday or Sunday (depending on who you ask) because calendars have changed over the centuries; the Hebrew calendar is different from our present one which is based on a Roman pagan one, but I claim no expertise on this matter so you may want to check it out for yourself. One point to ponder is that a legal, formal calendar didn't exist at the time of creation, i.e. the original Sabbath, so in the end how can one be so sure of a particular day we should worship God?

I remember struggling with the righteousness of the doctrine of hell for many years after my initial faith. Over the years, I have come to realize that there are no levels to human reluctance to acknowledge its own sin due to self-pity and desire to justify oneself for pride. In the end, can we really excuse our sin? Does ignorance to the salvation offered by God really even exist (see Romans 1 and 2)? I can personally testify that I met someone to whom Christ revealed Himself without her even knowing what His ministry or resurrection was even about - completely in the dark apart from revelation from God.

Jesus used a lot of hyperbole (exaggeration) when teaching, and that likewise translated to His discussion of hell. He spoke of it being a place of outer darkness (which I personally consider to be spiritual blindness, thus mental and emotional torment) while also being filled with fire. Well, how can there be physical darkness in the presence of flame?

Ultimately, I would encourage you to buy a study Bible that presents various interpretations of controversial passages along with background understanding of each book; consider also books that explain historical context and original language as well (there's a bunch on Amazon). The path of a confident believer is one who finds the answers from studying scripture, not just a surface reading. Good luck!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I'm a new believer of about 2 months.

I've read equaly good arguments for and against for these points from christians using scripture. I have also poured many hours of reading the bible also. Regarding the Sabbath. Why is it that it's relevant to keep the other nine commandments yet not this one? It is a common theme that I come accross. The other thought I see is, Jesus wiped those away and now it is based on faith in him only. The third argument I see is we must keep all of them. Even though I can't quote scripture, I do remember reading excerpts from scripture about keeping the commandments.

You are on the right path. All the commandments are relevant. Someone here said that Jesus came to deliver us from the list of do's and don'ts. The bible says Jesus came to save us from our sins. Jesus kept the law perfectly and fulfilled the law not so that we don't have to, but because it took a perfect man to be a sacrifice for our sins. If we ought to be like Jesus then we must follow him. If he kept all his father's commandments then we should as well.

Revelation 22:14 says, blessed are they which do his commandments, that they might have right to the tree of life and enter in through the gates of the city (something like that). Revelation 14:12 says Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. I particularly like this scripture because people make it seem like if you keep the commandments then you don't have faith. And that faith goes in place of keeping the commandments but that is far from the truth. If you have faith in someone, you will obey then.

People also think that in the Old Testament people were saved by keeping the law and in the NT it is by grace through faith. But salvation has always been by grace for it is the only way man can be saved. The only way to be saved without grace, is to be perfect from birth which is impossible. Grace removes out record of sin. Once you sin, living pefectly from there can not remove that sin. Only grace can. So keeping the law cannot save anyone and has never saved anyone. There is no logical justification then to say the Sabbath or any of the commandments should no longer be kept. Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances to the cross, which were in relation to the sacrificial system that was necessary since Christ had not yet died. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins and since in the OT, Jesus had not yet died, there needed to be a sacrificial system to foreshadow the sacrifice of Christ in order to atone for sins. This entire system and the laws related to it is no longer necessary when Christ died. The Sabbath was never apart of this system because it was instituted at creation.

Hell. My understanding is this.
1. Hell was made for Satan and the fallen angels.
2. We can only receive eternal life as a gift from God upon salvation.

Correct

My questions are
1. If we can only receive eternal life from salvation, how is it that the unsaved also receive eternal life burning forever in hell?

The unsaved do not. They die. They perish.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Eternal Torment is a misunderstand of scripture because your question is the most logical argument against it. In order for you to be tormented forever, you must have eternal life. Eternal life is the reward of the saved not the lost. The reward of the lost is death. Death is the absence of life. So the wicked must die.

 

[now faith]

Shifty,
Regarding the issue of the Sabbath, it's difficult to make a legalistic viewpoint for Saturday or Sunday (depending on who you ask) because calendars have changed over the centuries; the Hebrew calendar is different from our present one which is based on a Roman pagan one, but I claim no expertise on this matter so you may want to check it out for yourself. One point to ponder is that a legal, formal calendar didn't exist at the time of creation, i.e. the original Sabbath, so in the end how can one be so sure of a particular day we should worship God?

I remember struggling with the righteousness of the doctrine of hell for many years after my initial faith. Over the years, I have come to realize that there are no levels to human reluctance to acknowledge its own sin due to self-pity and desire to justify oneself for pride. In the end, can we really excuse our sin? Does ignorance to the salvation offered by God really even exist (see Romans 1 and 2)? I can personally testify that I met someone to whom Christ revealed Himself without her even knowing what His ministry or resurrection was even about - completely in the dark apart from revelation from God.

Jesus used a lot of hyperbole (exaggeration) when teaching, and that likewise translated to His discussion of hell. He spoke of it being a place of outer darkness (which I personally consider to be spiritual blindness, thus mental and emotional torment) while also being filled with fire. Well, how can there be physical darkness in the presence of flame?

Ultimately, I would encourage you to buy a study Bible that presents various interpretations of controversial passages along with background understanding of each book; consider also books that explain historical context and original language as well (there's a bunch on Amazon). The path of a confident believer is one who finds the answers from studying scripture, not just a surface reading. Good luck!

Good advice,you know your right how do we know exactly what day should be the Sabbath?
Joshua during battle said sun be dumb or still,how much did that change time? All I know is I work six days and rest on the seventh.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.
This was teaching by Paul,it is what it is.
No buts or look over here for some other meaning.
Christ himself violated the man made ordinances by picking corn and healing on the Sabbath.
It is the only one of the ten commandments that are not mentioned in the New Testament.
But I have no problem if you want to worship on whatever day,just don't try condemnation on me.

 

[now faith]

Ok lets bounce this around.
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
So here are two times that time its self was changed.
The sun and moon stood still,this would stop the time continuum in the universe.
The sun was also moved back,this would change the time continuum in the universe.
But the men on earth continued to move in battle and life. So as man moved forward time stood still.
This would cause man to move a day ahead ,thus his Sabbath would be a day ahead, our solar Sunday.
Now that I have solved the time space continuum issues ,and have proven it is ok what ever day you rest
Any more questions?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Ok lets bounce this around.
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
So here are two times that time its self was changed.
The sun and moon stood still,this would stop the time continuum in the universe.
The sun was also moved back,this would change the time continuum in the universe.
But the men on earth continued to move in battle and life. So as man moved forward time stood still.
This would cause man to move a day ahead ,thus his Sabbath would be a day ahead, our solar Sunday.
Now that I have solved the time space continuum issues ,and have proven it is ok what ever day you rest
Any more questions?

This argument makes no sense. The day was extended. Another day did not come along. That day was longer than 24hrs. It didn't mean another day came and met that say and got lost or anything.

And about the change the the calendar that someone else mentioned. The change in the calendar does not affect the weekly cycle. Modifications were made to dates, not days. Regardless of the change in the calendar, Monday always follows Sunday, Tuesday always follows Monday and so forth. If Tuesday was the 14th and the calendar has Wednesday at the 20th because some days were lost, this does not affect the weekly cycle.

 

[Peripatetic]

Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." -Mark 2:27 So while we shouldn't be legalistic about it, observing the Sabbath is very beneficial to us. Romans 14 tells us that there is freedom in how it is done:

"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord." -Romans 14:5-6a

 

[Harry3142]

shiftyQ-

The Old Testament has a set of laws and commandments. This set includes The Ten Commandments, which are 'filled out' with the other 603 laws and commandments found in Torah. So in order to obey any of The Ten Commandments as they were originally intended to be obeyed, you have to obey the other laws and commandments which would pertain to your particular societal rank (some were intended specifically for priests, and others for specific sects within Judaism).

As Christians we have our own code of conduct, found in The New Testament. Here we find prohibitions against adultery, theft, murder, perjury, envy, greed, etc. (you can find these in Mark 7:20-23 and Galatians 5:16-26). But we find no laws in the NT which specifically order us to keep the Sabbath. So we have chosen to keep it in remembrance of the day on which Jesus Christ rose again from the dead. It's a case of permitting your conscience to be your guide.

A warn of caution here: There are individuals who believe that we should keep both the laws and commandments found in the OT and the code of conduct found in the NT bonded together. This is a matter of conscience with them, and even though I disagree with them, I will not criticize them for it. However, there are certain denominations/sects which teach that we must keep certain laws found in the OT and certain laws found in the NT, or else we will lose our salvation. It has been my experience when I have encountered these denominations/sects that the set of laws and commandments their particular group preaches as absolutely essential for salvation is a 'minestrone soup' of laws which ultimately gives the heirarchy of that particular group absolute power over the activities, and the assets, of every one of its members.

 

[powerandlight]

The Commandments are for all men for all
time. The Sabbath is for physical and spiritual
reasons - like all of God's Word. The physical is easy - we need a time of rest and relaxation. The spiritual reason for this Commandment is that it
is a way in which to honor God. A holy time set aside to worship Him.
More than this - the Sabbath is a way of life in which we consecrate
ourselves to Him and live each momentike of the time He has allotted us here on Earth in accordance with His Word. This is the key to Eternal Life - that we "know Him and Jesus Christ whom He has sent" - and follow in His footsteps "becoming like Him...."

 

[asiyreh]

Ok well this will probably be removed to General theology soon. But I want to say this. I've seen excellent argument from both sides regarding the Sabbath. It is a continuous and ongoing discussion; not least of all, held multiple times in our own GT section.

I won't add to it, however there were a few times during this thread when I've seen someone mention how do we know we keep the correct Sabbath etc.

So just purely for knowledge purposes and not to start and argument.

TubeChop - 217 - The Crime of All Ages / Total Onslaught - Walter Veith (02:53)

Excuse the title screen the tubeshop applet automatically selects it.

 

[now faith]

This argument makes no sense. The day was extended. Another day did not come along. That day was longer than 24hrs. It didn't mean another day came and met that say and got lost or anything.

And about the change the the calendar that someone else mentioned. The change in the calendar does not affect the weekly cycle. Modifications were made to dates, not days. Regardless of the change in the calendar, Monday always follows Sunday, Tuesday always follows Monday and so forth. If Tuesday was the 14th and the calendar has Wednesday at the 20th because some days were lost, this does not affect the weekly cycle.

The intent was not a argument,but observations.
The sun and moon stood still for a day,we base our days weeks and month's on the earth revolving around the sun. 365 times each year,at the time Joshua commanded sun and moon to stop it did.
In that week the earth rotated 6 times around the sun instead of 7.
Men continued to move forward in time on earth,so if they based the Sabbath on the time the sun moved again ,this would in earth time or actual time spent would place them observing the Sabbath on Sunday the first day of the week.
By saying the day was longer than 24 hrs is my point.
The longer hours moved the Sabbath forward,since there are 24hrs in the earths rotation.
Ponder this a bit more and you realize this event would reconcile Christ raised on the third day.
Also his lack of legal rules on the Sabbath,because he knew it was not the Sabbath.
With the Apostles meeting day as well the were meeting on the Sabbath, Sunday is the Sabbath.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The intent was not a argument,but observations.
The sun and moon stood still for a day,we base our days weeks and month's on the earth revolving around the sun. 365 times each year,at the time Joshua commanded sun and moon to stop it did.
In that week the earth rotated 6 times around the sun instead of 7.
Men continued to move forward in time on earth,so if they based the Sabbath on the time the sun moved again ,this would in earth time or actual time spent would place them observing the Sabbath on Sunday the first day of the week.
By saying the day was longer than 24 hrs is my point.
The longer hours moved the Sabbath forward,since there are 24hrs in the earths rotation.
Ponder this a bit more and you realize this event would reconcile Christ raised on the third day.
Also his lack of legal rules on the Sabbath,because he knew it was not the Sabbath.
With the Apostles meeting day as well the were meeting on the Sabbath, Sunday is the Sabbath.

So you are saying that since that event that took place when the sun stood still that the Sabbath got moved to Sunday?

 

[now faith]

So you are saying that since that event that took place when the sun stood still that the Sabbath got moved to Sunday?

I think it is something to ponder.
There may be variables for consideration.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I think it is something to ponder.
There may be variables for consideration.

I think its pie in the sky.

 

[now faith]

I think its pie in the sky.

Well for me it would not be the first time

 

[now faith]

I think its pie in the sky.

Why do many Christians worship on Sunday?
One teaching I have heard,is Constantine made a law in which pagan and Christian alike had one in the same day to worship.
The pagans worshiped a sun god thus Sunday was proclaimed.
This may be pie but wouldn't be ironic that God would have used the sun being stopped,to restore the the Sabbath. SUNDAY so many years before.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Why do many Christians worship on Sunday?
One teaching I have heard,is Constantine made a law in which pagan and Christian alike had one in the same day to worship.
The pagans worshiped a sun god thus Sunday was proclaimed.
This may be pie but wouldn't be ironic that God would have used the sun being stopped,to restore the the Sabbath. SUNDAY so many years before.

Teaching? That's history. That actually happened. He passed that Sunday law in 321AD. He was trying to convert the empire to christianity and to make it an easy transition for the pagans, he made the already existing main day of worship in his pagan empire, the "christian" day of worship.

Question to you. Why would God need to restore the Sabbath if it was never changed? The Sabbath was and is the 7th day. Why would God use the sun being stopped to restore it if it was not changed prior to that?