Sabbath From Creation

[k4c]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Doctrine always trumps scripture.
Can you prove Abraham read the 10C and purposed in his heart to keep them and then did? Can you keep them too? And what other laws and statutes were there for him to keep besides the 10C. Sounds like he had a lot laid on him. Especially since he obviously sinned by lying to people about Sarai not being his wife and used Hagar to have a son since he doubted what God had in mind. Good job Abraham.
Abraham's obedience by not witholding Issac when he was tested was the clincher for God. That is when Abraham obeyed God and that is the culmination of obedience to all the so-called commandments and statutes. Abraham trusted God right there and that was the reason for his righteousness. Abraham was justified by his faith, period.

My NIV says Jesus broke the Sabbath.

The Bible says that Abraham obeyed God's Law. But even he broke it at times and knew that what he was doing was against God.

You say Jesus broke the Sabbath? This is true but if you read the rest of the verses you will find Jesus saying it was okay to do the things He was doing even under the old covenant.

 

[JRSut1000]

Then hence he wasnt disobeying the Law. What He did break was the rabbinical interpretation of how to carry out the law.

 

[k4c]

Then hence he wasnt disobeying the Law. What He did break was the rabbinical interpretation of how to carry out the law.

Jesus did say they violated the Sabbath but were guiltless. This tells us that these principles of Sabbath keeping was always there but religious man exalted the Sabbath above human need. Jesus corrected this wrong view.

 

[JRSut1000]

I won't argue that The Spirit of the Law trumps the Letter of the Law, especially in the New Covenant. So in a way, yes I agree with you.

 

[k4c]

I won't argue that The Spirit of the Law trumps the Letter of the Law, especially in the New Covenant. So in a way, yes I agree with you.

The spirit of the Law is love. If you love God and man you will find yourself keeping the Law but you can also find yourself keeping the Law and not love God or man. This is what Jesus personally reveals to us in our heart of hearts.

 

[Section10]

That's more like it. He did break the letter of the law, but not the spirit. What he did was to demonstrate God's lovingkindness which always overrides the letter of the law. His ministry was one of grace as is all of ours. The gospel message is one of reconciliation. Don't think I am an evildoer because I do not acknowledge law. I have chosen faith through grace since that is now where our righteousness is found. If Abraham had no faith there would never have been any good work of attempting to sacrifice Isaac. He would never have made it to that mountain in the first place.

 

[Section10]

I try never to do anything for Jesus. Whatever good I may do I do because of Jesus.

 

[Stryder06]

No offense, but the NIV is [dog doodoo].

That's putting it nicely

 

[Stryder06]

Then hence he wasnt disobeying the Law. What He did break was the rabbinical interpretation of how to carry out the law.

Agreed

 

[Section10]

After I had been a Christian for awhile, I dedided to really dig deep into the word. I bought Greek grammars, and lexicons and a parsing guide etc. I took some classes and I developed an ability to read Greek and do decent exegesis. I became very smug and was sure I knew more than most people. After a few years I had to ask myself if I really was becoming closer to God because I could do all this. The answer was no. I can still use the tools if I choose to, but my life no longer goes in that direction and I am not much of a scholar anymore. I have other versions, but I mostly read the NIV. If I can understand that well enough, I'm satisfied. Love God and love your neighbor is enough to last me the rest of my life. Truth is as complicated as you want to make it.

 

[tall73]

For those of you that don't believe the Sabbath was instituted from creation but was only given at Mt Sinai, how do you explain that the Israelites kept the Sabbath after the Exodus before arriving at Mt Sinai? If this was something new to them, how did Moses know beforehand what the Sabbath was and how to keep it? Of all the accounts of the murmurings of the Israelites, why was there no record of them complaining about this strange new rule, especially after some had been killed for violating it? Would God so punish someone before they even knew about this Law?

A question you have not answered yet.

Exo 16:1 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

This was some time after they left Egypt. But here is Moses in Ex. 16 describing this to them as a new concept. They have to have trial and error to even get the concept.

If the Sabbath was holy before this why were they not keeping it from the time they left Egypt?

 

[k4c]

A question you have not answered yet.

Exo 16:1 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

This was some time after they left Egypt. But here is Moses in Ex. 16 describing this to them as a new concept. They have to have trial and error to even get the concept.

If the Sabbath was holy before this why were they not keeping it from the time they left Egypt?

You can't use a people under bondage and slavery for hundreds of years to pagan rulers to determine what godly worship is. God delivered them and taught them His ways. They rebelled and hardened their heart. They profaned God's Sabbath which resulted in them roaming in the wilderness for forty years and dying there. You know what God says to us, that's you and me? He says their behavior in the wilderness is a warning to us so that we don't fall into the same rebellious behavior and reap the same consequence.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You can't use a people under bondage and slavery for hundreds of years to pagan rulers to determine what godly worship is. God delivered them and taught them His ways. They rebelled and hardened their heart. They profaned God's Sabbath which resulted in them roaming in the wilderness for forty years and dying there. You know what God says to us, that's you and me? He says their behavior in the wilderness is a warning to us so that we don't fall into the same rebellious behavior and reap the same consequence.

What he said...

 

[tall73]

You can't use a people under bondage and slavery for hundreds of years to pagan rulers to determine what godly worship is. God delivered them and taught them His ways. They rebelled and hardened their heart. They profaned God's Sabbath which resulted in them roaming in the wilderness for forty years and dying there. You know what God says to us, that's you and me? He says their behavior in the wilderness is a warning to us so that we don't fall into the same rebellious behavior and reap the same consequence.

I am not using people under bondage to determine what Godly worship is.

I am asking why when they were FREE From bondage the sabbath is not enjoined upon them until Exodus 16, which is sometime AFTER their bondage.

 

[tall73]

What he said...

What he said didn't answer the question.

If the Sabbath was in place, why not have them keep it when they left Egypt, instead of some time later?

 

[k4c]

I am not using people under bondage to determine what Godly worship is.

I am asking why when they were FREE From bondage the sabbath is not enjoined upon them until Exodus 16, which is sometime AFTER their bondage.

The Sabbath is a blessed and holy day whether we keep it holy or not. These people were under slavery for hundreds of years. You may have family memebers who obeyed God 400 years ago who have decendants who no longer obey Him now. God delivers them and teaches them. There was a time while they were in bondage that they wanted time off to worship God and got punished for it. I believe God reminds them of this when He says, remember when you were slaves in Egypt? Behold, My Sabbath.

 

[tall73]

The Sabbath is a blessed and holy day whether we keep it holy or not. These people were under slavery for hundreds of years. You may have family memebers who obeyed God 400 years ago who have decendants who no longer obey Him now. God delivers them and teaches them. There was a time while they were in bondage that they wanted time off to worship God and got punished for it. I believe God reminds them of this when He says, remember when you were slaves in Egypt? Behold, My Sabbath.

No, you still didn't respond to the actual point raised. It was not introduced to them until some time after leaving Egypt. It is not that they just didn't want to keep it, or were remembering how they were punished for it. They were not told about it. Moses has to explain the whole thing to them.

If it was holy during that time, why were they not introduced to it when coming out of Egypt, rather than some time later?

 

[ricker]

No, you still didn't respond to the actual point raised. It was not introduced to them until some time after leaving Egypt. It is not that they just didn't want to keep it, or were remembering how they were punished for it. They were not told about it. Moses has to explain the whole thing to them.

If it was holy during that time, why were they not introduced to it when coming out of Egypt, rather than some time later?

Maybe it was because the Sabbath hadn't been introduced. It was an experiment to see if they would follow God's instructions, which later became a sign for their nation.


4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

 

[k4c]

No, you still didn't respond to the actual point raised. It was not introduced to them until some time after leaving Egypt. It is not that they just didn't want to keep it, or were remembering how they were punished for it. They were not told about it. Moses has to explain the whole thing to them.

If it was holy during that time, why were they not introduced to it when coming out of Egypt, rather than some time later?

When you became a Christian wasn't there things you needed to learn? Things like not having sex with your girlfriend until you were married. Was not having sex with your girlfriend until you get married still God's will for you before you were taught not to have sex outside of marriage? There are a lot of things God needs to teach us before we enter the promise land so that when we get in the promise land we will know what to expect and how to live. Don't continue wondering in the wildernesses by your stubborn heart and end up dying there because just as they did, we can do too.

 

[Stryder06]

I am not using people under bondage to determine what Godly worship is.

I am asking why when they were FREE From bondage the sabbath is not enjoined upon them until Exodus 16, which is sometime AFTER their bondage.

God's timing. Moses, before Sinai, told His Father-in-law that he judge the people and made known to them the law of God. Would that law have been different from the law given at Sinai?