Sabbath From Creation

[JohnMarsten]

Because the scripture clearly says that the laws and festivals instituted through Moses, pointing forward to Christ, were fulfilled in Him and no longer necessary. The ten Commandments were instituted before sin and so have no fulfilment, they are eternal.

well, then how do you account for the fact that God makes mention of the exodus in the commandments, are you trying to imply to me that the exodus was before sin as well, of course I know you are not you are too intelligent for that

if God mentions the exodus he authored "this version" of the commandments after the exodus... which makes you theory void...

 

[k4c]

well, then how do you account for the fact that God makes mention of the exodus in the commandments, are you trying to imply to me that the exodus was before sin as well, of course I know you are not you are too intelligent for that

if God mentions the exodus he authored "this version" of the commandments after the exodus... which makes you theory void...

Did God call the seventh day holy before Exodus?

Did Eve disobey her Father, did she covet, did she steal all befoe Exodus?

Did Cane commit murder before Exodus?

Was Joseph worried about committing adultery before Exodus?

Remember, the Law was written in stone because of transgression. In other words, people were violating these principles before Exodus so must of had some form prior to Exodus.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Did God call the seventh day holy before Exodus?

Did Eve disobey her Father, did she covet, did she steal all befoe Exodus?

Did Cane commit murder before Exodus?

Was Joseph worried about committing adultery before Exodus?

Remember, the Law was written in stone because of transgression. In other words, people were violating these principles before Exodus so must of had some form prior to Exodus.

I was just reffering to the fact that if the 10 commandment had an universal background (meaning applicable and logical for everyone) they would have been stated differently. Why would God mention the Exodus if this law was applicable to each and every one back then, even the ones that didnt partake the exodus. Or would you as a non-israelite consider yourself addressed by a law that reminds your being rescued out of Egypt??

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

... and I know you are dumb enough...

I told you once not use to that cheap manipulative force, doesnt make you any more convincing...

It isn't manipulative language John although I am sorry of you took it that way. I wasn't being derogatory when I said that I knew they were intelligent for I truly believe they are. It's a response to people that keep dragging the decalogue into the ceremonial side of the Jewish economy when they know the difference between the two. It is a misleading canard to lump the moral law in with the statutes, festivals and ordinances.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

well, then how do you account for the fact that God makes mention of the exodus in the commandments, are you trying to imply to me that the exodus was before sin as well, of course I know you are not you are too intelligent for that

if God mentions the exodus he authored "this version" of the commandments after the exodus... which makes you theory void...

There is a difference between physically keeping the law as a ceremony to point us forward to Christ delivering us from bondage and having a rememberance of the event. Understanding the types and being able to see the fulfilment of the antitypes in Christ, gives us the evidence of the validity of Jesus being the Messiah.

 

[JohnMarsten]

It isn't manipulative language John although I am sorry of you took it that way. I wasn't being derogatory when I said that I knew they were intelligent for I truly believe they are. It's a response to people that keep dragging the decalogue into the ceremonial side of the Jewish economy when they know the difference between the two. It is a misleading canard to lump the moral law in with the statutes, festivals and ordinances.

It is manipulative language indeed ECR...

because it connects two things

your position

the other's being intelligent

or in other words people are dumb if they dont agree with your position...

thats the language, of course, I somehow understand that you dont mean it that way, and since I kinda like you, I wanted to adress it... no offence whatsoever

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

...would you as a non-israelite consider yourself addressed by a law that reminds your being rescued out of Egypt??

As per my post above, we have been rescued out of the bondage of Egypt though Christ...

 

[Stryder06]

Since I am not under the law I do not concern myself with it. Jesus broke the Sabbath. John 5:18.

Jesus asked the people "Which of you accuses me of sin?" Had He been a sabbath breaker that would have been a clear violation of the law and they would have easily pointed that out. Also, the new covenant wasn't until Christ died. Had Christ violated the law in any way, shape, or form, He would not have been our Perfect Sacrifice.

We all have the knowledge of good & evil since Adam. That was Abraham's and mankind's law.

How is knowledge of something a law?

Sabbath doesn't show up in scripture until Exodus 16 and it was for the Jews.
Also see Deut. 5:1-3 and 7:11.
The only vow I made was to trust God. I'll leave all the extra vows up to you.

There weren't any Jews in Ex 16.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

... no offence whatsoever

None taken... I was addressing certain members and that taken outside the context of those I was addressing, it could seem inappropriate to the casual reader. I always welcome reproof for how my posts come across... the inherency of internet forums I suppose.

 

[JRSut1000]

Jesus didn't break ANY commandments, He wouldn't been able to atone for us if that was the case. He had to be the spotless, blameless Lamb.

 

[Section10]

Stryder06
So when it says Jesus broke the Sabbath what it really means is Jesus did not break the Sabbath. Cool. This opens up all kinds of new ways of interpretation. Doctrine always trumps scripture.......Always.
There is no evidence of the 10C or a Sabbath before Moses. Just some reference to right and wrong standards of behavior which mankind has had since the fall. It is doctrine that says the 10C were in place from the beginning and doctrine always rules.
God says he sent the flood because the earth was filled with violence. No mention of any commandments being broken.

All Gen. 2 tells us is that God blessed the 7th day. Not the 14th, 21st, 28th, 35th etc. Anything more than that is an assumption. You do not see observance of every 7th day until Moses.

 

[k4c]

I was just reffering to the fact that if the 10 commandment had an universal background (meaning applicable and logical for everyone) they would have been stated differently. Why would God mention the Exodus if this law was applicable to each and every one back then, even the ones that didnt partake the exodus. Or would you as a non-israelite consider yourself addressed by a law that reminds your being rescued out of Egypt??

Egypt is a picture of man in bondage to sin. Once you're delivered from the consequence of doing the wrong way you have to be taught the right way.

 

[tall73]

It isn't manipulative language John although I am sorry of you took it that way. I wasn't being derogatory when I said that I knew they were intelligent for I truly believe they are. It's a response to people that keep dragging the decalogue into the ceremonial side of the Jewish economy when they know the difference between the two. It is a misleading canard to lump the moral law in with the statutes, festivals and ordinances.

Please show where the Bible calls them moral and ceremonial. There are moral aspects outside of the ten commandments.

And you still have not commented on why they waited to keep the Sabbath after the Exodus. Exodus 16 happened more than a week out from their departure. The topic of this thread is centered around Exodus 16. And you made a particular point of Moses' knowledge before Sinai. Please address this issue.

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder06
So when it says Jesus broke the Sabbath what it really means is Jesus did not break the Sabbath. Cool. This opens up all kinds of new ways of interpretation.

The scriptures don't say Jesus broke the sabbath. The scirptures show Jesus being accused of breaking the sabbath by the Pharisees. There's a difference.

Doctrine always trumps scripture.......Always.

Que?

There is no evidence of the 10C or a Sabbath before Moses. Just some reference to right and wrong standards of behavior which mankind has had since the fall. It is doctrine that says the 10C were in place from the beginning and doctrine always rules.
God says he sent the flood because the earth was filled with violence. No mention of any commandments being broken.

God says Abraham kept His law, statutes, and commandments. Care to explain what laws, statutes, and commandments Abraham kept?

All Gen. 2 tells us is that God blessed the 7th day. Not the 14th, 21st, 28th, 35th etc. Anything more than that is an assumption. You do not see observance of every 7th day until Moses.

The sabbath is a holy day. God made the 7th day holy. We have a 7 day cycle. So every 7th day is holy. Moses tells the people, before Sinai, that the 7th day is the sabbath unto God. What does that mean?

 

[tall73]

Passover was instituted as a result of sin the seventh day Sabbath wasn't.

I would agree.

However, the point was that things which were given to Israel before Sinai were placed in the Sinai law. So the presence of the Sabbath in Exodus 16, before Sinai is not significant in the way he stated as a proof for his position.

 

[k4c]

I would agree.

However, the point was that things which were given to Israel before Sinai were placed in the Sinai law. So the presence of the Sabbath in Exodus 16, before Sinai is not significant in the way he stated as a proof for his position.

God's people were restricted from freely worshiping God for hundreds of years. At one point while in Egypt they were punished for wanting to cease from labor in order to worship God. After Egypt they were free but God had to teach them His ways.

 

[JRSut1000]

That's right

 

[Section10]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Doctrine always trumps scripture.
Can you prove Abraham read the 10C and purposed in his heart to keep them and then did? Can you keep them too? And what other laws and statutes were there for him to keep besides the 10C. Sounds like he had a lot laid on him. Especially since he obviously sinned by lying to people about Sarai not being his wife and used Hagar to have a son since he doubted what God had in mind. Good job Abraham.
Abraham's obedience by not witholding Issac when he was tested was the clincher for God. That is when Abraham obeyed God and that is the culmination of obedience to all the so-called commandments and statutes. Abraham trusted God right there and that was the reason for his righteousness. Abraham was justified by his faith, period.

My NIV says Jesus broke the Sabbath.

 

[JRSut1000]

No offense, but the NIV is [dog doodoo].

 

[JRSut1000]

He wouldn't and couldn't have been the sacrificial Lamb if He broke even 1 commandment. He had to be perfect, no sin, no transgression of the Law.