Sabbath deliema

[sentipente]

Fourth, for me personally, using only the Scriptures as the foundation for my beliefs, if I were to choose to disregard the Sabbath I would indeed loose my salvation.

You don't understand salvation. Your salvation is not in your hands. It is in the hands of the one who saved and keeps you.

 

[Jimlarmore]

You don't understand salvation. Your salvation is not in your hands. It is in the hands of the one who saved and keeps you.

This idea is certainly not Biblical. We all have a part to play in our salvation which exercises our free wills to chose right or wrong. If your idea were the case absolutely no one would be lost because in the book of John the Bible says the Father told His Son that He didn't want any to be lost. We know from the Bible that there will be many lost souls who will be killed in the flames of hell fire at the end of the sin problem.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[sentipente]

We know from the Bible that there will be many lost souls who will be killed in the flames of hell fire at the end of the sin problem.

Do we? I guess you also will be looking for gates in a city where there is no crime and for the streets of gold that God somehow forgot to place in paradise at the very beginning. Please understand that the writers of the Bible were not authorities on all the issues.

 

[Sophia7]

Well, thanks for that. At least now we have some honesty on this issue.

Free, you have your answer. Print it off, frame it and put it on your wall, because you won't hear it as plainly stated as we have right here and now by very many in the church.

This is definitely a milestone for me in my Adventist experience. We even got Trad to actually admit they believe salvation is contingent on the Sabbath, something they usually hem and haw around without actually coming right out and saying.

it does indeed appear that someone that has been a pastor should have sufficent knowledge and the conviction that the Sabbath is a part of salvation.

Now excuse me as I pick my jaw up off the floor in amazement.

Just....wow.

Well, at least he openly admits that he believes that, whereas many Trads won't come right out and say it. Contrary to Doc's statement, though, conviction isn't really the issue to Traditional Adventists. Otherwise, they wouldn't have such a problem with it when former Adventists, even former pastors, are no longer convicted that Sabbath-keeping is required of Christians. It's all about knowledge. If we know "the truth" and reject it, we're seen as lost unless we eventually return to the fold.

In real life, some of my family members are not at all hesitant to share such thoughts with me.

 

[Sophia7]

Night, you ask about Sabbath keeping for, shall I say a specific group, former SDA pastors. My answer is not, nor was it intended as, a blanket statement about every single person that might be saved.

What about former SDA pastors' wives?

 

[tall73]

First, and foremost, you need to forget about anything Ellen G. White had to say about this subject or anything else.

Wish I could. But folks seem to put stock in it which means I have to account for it in discussions.

 

[mva1985]

Fourth, for me personally, using only the Scriptures as the foundation for my beliefs, if I were to choose to disregard the Sabbath I would indeed loose my salvation.

Does it need to be said any plainer?

You don't understand salvation. Your salvation is not in your hands. It is in the hands of the one who saved and keeps you.

Apparently Doc it does need to be said plainer because some just do get it. Not just Senti, but Night as well with his post.

It is obvious from Doc's post that he is convicted of the Sabbath truth and that it is a command from God that he should keep it. For him to turn his back on the Sabbath would be equivalent to turning his back on God, and that is what would jeopardize his salvation - the deliberate turning his back on God.

 

[Cribstyl]

Can you murder once per week without repenting and expect to be saved? Can you comit adultery once per week without repenting and expect to be saved?

What did Christ mean when He said "you must be born again?" What did He mean when He said "you have to take up your cross and follow me? "

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Yea, these "answers" are real helpful.

thanks a lot pal
.................................................................

As for your statement Crib: I made a direct statement addressing a specific question. Just in case you haven't noticed it is not my habit to attempt changing the subject. Nor do I refuse to reply to real qustions.

Respectfully,
Doc

Doc, I apologize for my tone, and retract my insensitive statement.
I dont mean question those who believe that by their righteous acts they're obedient to God.
I do mean to question those that believe they're righteous, while condemning others for not walking in their footsteps.

If you consider my sabbath question invalid, so be it.

I've been to a SDA church the last 4weeks and the message has been Sabbath, persecution, sabbath, sabbath...... I'm just trying to get some understanding from those who teach.
God bless
CRIB

 

[NightEternal]

Apparently Doc it does need to be said plainer because some just do get it. Not just Senti, but Night as well with his post.

It is obvious from Doc's post that he is convicted of the Sabbath truth and that it is a command from God that he should keep it. For him to turn his back on the Sabbath would be equivalent to turning his back on God, and that is what would jeopardize his salvation - the deliberate turning his back on God.

No, I get it just fine. You are talking about this statement:

Fourth, for me personally, using only the Scriptures as the foundation for my beliefs, if I were to choose to disregard the Sabbath I would indeed loose my salvation.

It is a shocking statement in itself, quite reminiscient of Jan Paulsen's claim. But, whatever, he is only including himself in that one.

The one that floored me was this one. Again, for those who missed it the first time:

it does indeed appear that someone that has been a pastor should have sufficent knowledge and the conviction that the Sabbath is a part of salvation.

Indeed, that is clear enough. It is plainly stating that the Sabbath is not only a part of salvation, it claims that such a premise is a fact which people should eventually be convicted on.

Snowballing the issues or downplaying the outrageousness of the claim won't work with me MVA. He has said what he has said, and while you may try to minimize it, some of us know better.

 

[NightEternal]

Contrary to Doc's statement, though, conviction isn't really the issue to Traditional Adventists. Otherwise, they wouldn't have such a problem with it when former Adventists, even former pastors, are no longer convicted that Sabbath-keeping is required of Christians. It's all about knowledge. If we know "the truth" and reject it, we're seen as lost unless we eventually return to the fold.

Correct Sophia. And this can only lead a person to one conclusion: The Trads do not consider your convictions on the matter either genuine nor borne out of honest study. Because, naturally, if your studies did not lead you to the party line, they were not valid. Hence, your convictions are also false and delusional as well.

 

[freeindeed2]

Free,

I've made my view based on Scripture clear enough. Whatever path you've chosen to take, I hope you are fully convinced in your own mind.


Jon

Which makes the Sabbath salvic in your mind...

IN CHRIST ALONE...

 

[Sophia7]

Correct Sophia. And this can only lead a person to one conclusion: The Trads do not consider your convictions on the matter either genuine nor borne out of honest study. Because, naturally, if your studies did not lead you to the party line, they were not valid. Hence, your convictions are also false and delusional as well.

Yes, in their view, if we are convicted of anything other than traditional Adventist beliefs (because we never really understood them in the first place or because we haven't studied honestly or because we don't want to be different from other Christians or whatever other reasons they come up with for why we have abandoned our previous beliefs), it must not be true conviction but a delusion of Satan.

 

[Sophia7]

Free,

I've made my view based on Scripture clear enough. Whatever path you've chosen to take, I hope you are fully convinced in your own mind.


Jon

Which makes the Sabbath salvic in your mind...

IN CHRIST ALONE...

Of course it does. I find it interesting that Jon's words are actually a reference to Romans 14, which doesn't convey the same message that he seems to be conveying by them:

RO 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

RO 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
​

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The reason that I keep the Sabbath is not because I am better than those who do not, but because God has opened my mind to the truth of the Sabbath, and apparently he has not done so with most. I understand that the truths of Scripture, and that includes the Sabbath truth, are more than the carnal mind is capable of accepting. I leave it to God to decide when He is going to present what truths to whom.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Well said SoldierOfTheKing!

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Dania]

sigh.. cant please and help change every body folks.. cant force anything on anyone i believe what i do.. and thats the way it is. if u dont see it that way. i am sincerely sorry u find the doctrine wrong.. so wrong that is. what can i do.. why do sda ppl have to defend their belief???

 

[Dania]

The reason that I keep the Sabbath is not because I am better than those who do not, but because God has opened my mind to the truth of the Sabbath, and apparently he has not done so with most. I understand that the truths of Scripture, and that includes the Sabbath truth, are more than the carnal mind is capable of accepting. I leave it to God to decide when He is going to present what truths to whom.

well said.. i couldnt have said it better. ppl feel its so wrong just cause they do understand it. GOD thank you for opening MY eyes.. and help the ppl too

 

[WailingWall]

I have just finished reading Samuel Bacchocci's book on the change of the Sabbath to Sunday. I have come to conclusion that the SDA postion and teaching Is DEAD wrong. DR. B contractited the SDA teaching in his book.

The change came from the Chruch early in the christian era and was changed in order to differenate between Jew and Christian. It was a portection issue for the chruch. this totally contradicts the SDA teaching that it came from paganism as a result the conclusion that Sunday will constitute the mark of the beast is also false. If your premise is false then your conclusion is also false.

but i am still having a problem what to to. I love keeping the sabbath. I sense the presence of the Lord there. Like colossians 2:16-17 says it is a shadow of christ. I kinda like the shadow. I don't agree with the conclusion that sunday is the mark of the beast but I do think that in REV 14 that it make room for the Sabbath to come into play. The issue is the creator and worshiping him. I see sabbath as part of the the soloution and proof that the Creator exists. I see that at the end Sabbath might play a role, just not the way SDA'S say it is so I am confused as to what to do with this delima. I don't see sabbath as a means of Salvation but a confirmation of the reality of the Creator. I am having trouble stomaching the idea of Worshiping on Sunday or it being a holy day, but I can't stomach the Idea of worshiping at an SDA chruch. so what do I do.
How Do you guy's handle this situation. intellectually I know the answers, but emotionally I am still drawn to the sabbath i love that part and it tears me up to leave it. it scares me too it is very difficult it is like something is dying inside and I am greving a loss. I just don't want to loose this

Hello icedragon
The sabbath is not the shadow of Christ.

COL.2 [14] BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17] WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST.

The laws of the ordinances are the shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The first covenant had also ordinances of divine service which STOOD ONLY in sacrifice offerings (meats and drinks), and carnal ordinances such as circumcision which were abolished in Christ.

HEBREWS 10 [1] FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

It was the law contained in the ordinances, which stood only in meat an drink offerings, which were the shadow of Christ. The sacrifices.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And ON THE SABBATH day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

In this scripture you can see the shadow of Christ. The meat and drink offerings of the sabbath. The sabbath was not the shadow of Christ. It was (according to the scriptures) the meat and drink offerings. The laws contained within the ordinances.

1 COR.5 [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us: [8] THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

We are to still keep Gods feast days (Holydays) and His sabbaths as the new testament commands us to. Only now, Christ is our passover sacrifice for sin. No more burnt offerings. No more meat offerings. No more drink offerings. And even the laws of the feast of unleavened bread have been fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Cribstyl]

Well said SoldierOfTheKing!

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Well said? Amen? These are things I say mostly when God's word is read or referenced.

Doc, I have never been an Adventist, I am married to one. I have studied face to face with several pastors among others. Today I had sabbath lunch with over 30 people in my home. I respect what you honor, but I have not bound myself to the law.

My friends are mostly SDA, I love all God's people and try to see and live as brothers and sisters in Christ.

The testimonies of those who leave other protestant churches, are so similar. It is based on answers to certain questions ask by SDA. When I take a closer look. The questions are flawed and the expected correct answers put honest people in bondage to the law.

From my extended and continuing studies of Adventism, I see how the knowlege taught from sources outside of the bible, gives SDA members insight to see more than is written in certain text of the bible. How long can you argue that Adam was given sabbath from Gen 2:2-3?
Truth is, if the argument is lost, many issue would also fall. Another vital argument is how SIN must be defined as "transgression of the Law". These arguments are foundational and detrimental to SDA.

The sabbath school lessons are subject-driven, they seldem dwell on a chapter or a book of the bible.

Saying that certain passages will "come arround" is the answer I get when I see context ignored.



Well, I have a 3yr old and a 20mth old that are being taught in your church.. I am not overjoyed because I see how and what is being taught them, is unscriptual.
(personal, personal, personal)
I've put it all in God's hands
I'm here to reason with you all about God's word. I'm not mad at you.
If you have the truth, post it.

IN LOVE

CRIB

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Another vital argument is how SIN must be defined as "transgression of the Law

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Checkmate.