Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

FOR THOSE THAT HAVE HEARS TO HEAR........

If our eyes are not open we cannot see the Garden of Eden or the paradise of God. Sin closes our eyes and makes us blind but seeking Jesus can open the blind eyes to see and the deaf to hear.

It is given to the blind to have eyes to see and ears to hear and the lame to walk while those seeing see not. Those hearing hear not and those walking walk not. This is because spiritual things are spiritually discerned. They that be whole do not need the physician but those that are sick seek him. Many do not know the meaning. He is the teacher of all the poor in spirit, he knows them all by name because he reads the intent of the heart that is sick.

Who can look into the mirror that God gives to see who they are? These are those the look into the mirror and see God. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them because in his mind they are foolishness. He says to us now you say you see therefore your sin remains.

Many are called but few are chosen because narrow is the way and few there be that find it. Only the mirror shows the way so the blind can see. Those that say they see are really the blind ones and if the blind shall lead the blind both shall fall into a ditch. Those that have looked into the mirror however see they are blind so they walk by faith and not by sight. They see the one who loves all and follow him. Only by love can God fulfill his Law in the blind because they walk by faith and see him who loves all. The mirror shows the way and if you have lost your mirror and it is broken how will you find the way that is narrow.

For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. Who am I that he should choose me out of the world? I am no one but he is all. If I did not believe him I would not know him. What can I do without him? He is love and now I love. I follow him now because I love him who first loved me. You say that I have not answered you, but I indeed answered you with His Word but you do not hear him because you have chosen not to hear his Word to you.

I do not judge you but His Word will judge us because they are there for all to see. All are welcome to see and hear God's Word, however many are called but few are chosen. It is hard to kick against the pricks

Who knows the scriptures?

God's Sheep hear His voice...........

Original Happy Camper said:

We are all under the law but not under the condimnation of the law because of the Blood of Christ.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

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I don't see how your quoted Scripture agrees with your statement. Since the law can't condemn us, we're not under is jurisdiction. If I'm in Texas doing 80 (legal posted speed limit on I-10), I'm not violating California law limiting me to 65 even if I'm a legal resident of California..

HARK! said:

Nothing there about YHWH's Law being demolished, nor about heaven nor earth passing away.

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish THE LAW or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from THE LAW till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

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Jesus said all things are fulfilled in Luke 24:44.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish THE LAW or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from THE LAW till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

Does Paul make you question Yahshua? If so, who will you follow, Paul, or Yahshua?

I didn't have time to address each and every one of these verses. This one should suffice.

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Why not? Isn't it demanded of the pro gracers?

HARK! said:

Nope. At the time that was written, there was no collection of books called the New Testament. He was referring to the Torah. (LAW included) I at least understand that much correctly.

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Doesn't change the fact the NT is Scripture. You're clearly trying to deny this. I don't see how you can call yourself a Christian and deny the NT is Scripture.

FreeAtLast said:

Nope. Yeshua gave us His commands while He still lived. Read His Words. he was referring to His NEW Covenant that would be ushered in at His death, by His blood, thus fulfilling the entire Old Covenant Law of Moses. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 5 and Luke 22:20.

This is proven by the NEW Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah which G-d reads:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the L-rd. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

G-d the Father stated clearly that this NEW Covenant, is not like the Old Covenant Law of Moses. So, it could not be the Law of Moses.

After those days, refers to when Yeshua makes this NEW Covenant. (Luke 22:20)

When G-d forgives our sin (only through Yeshua's blood)
Writes Yeshua's New Covenant commands on our heart (only through the Ruach haKodesh)
then we will be His people.

It was not possible under the Law of Moses (read those verses I posted in a previous comment) that is why Yeshua had to come and die. The Law of Moses never saved anyone, that's why G-d sent Yeshua ha Mashiach.

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The "after those days" emphasis is greatly appreciated and vital.

FreeAtLast said:

Anyone who reads the Scriptures knows that the Jewish people were obligated to keep the Law of Moses (including the Feast days) or die. Yes, quite the obligation.

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And anyone who reads the Scriptures also knows no one else but Israel was obliged to keep that law.

HARK! said:

Sylvester I (314-337 A.D.) was the pope during the reign of Constantine. Here is what he thought of the Bible Sabbath:

"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be execration [loathing or cursing] of the Jews."--quoted by S. R. E. Humbert, Adversus Graecorum calumnias 6, in Patrologie Cursus Completus, Series Latina, ed. J.P. Migne, 1844, p. 143.

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third (fourth) Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day." --The Catholic Encyclopedia Topic: Ten Commandments, 2nd paragraph

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the
authority of the one holy,"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate (abolish) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary. catholic, apostolic church of Christ." --Episcopalian Bishop Seymour said in "Why We Keep Sunday."

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Sorry but the RCC did not do what they said they did in your quote. The historical record bears out Christians worshiped on Sunday long before either Constantine or pope Sylvester I. Even 1 Corinthians 16 says so unless your church only receives money on non worship days.

LoveGodsWord said:

You seem to be confused about the purpose of God's Law (10 commandments) which are forever and the Mosaic laws that were temporary shadows of things to come.....

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What is meant by forever and its many synonyms? The Hebrew word "owlam" translated as ever (272x), everlasting (63x), old (22x), perpetual (22x), evermore (15x), never (13x), time (6x), ancient (5x), world (4x), always (3x), alway (2x), long (2x), more (2x), never (with H408) (2x), miscellaneous (6x) is being misused. Here is the definition:

long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

1. 
   ancient time, long time (of past)
   
   
2. (of future)
   
   1. for ever, always
      
      
   2. continuous existence, perpetual
      
      
   3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

This allows for things like Hosea 2:11 saying the sabbath would cease. And Jeremiah's well known prophecy in 31 to be true. Jeremiah clearly said the law covenant will be replaced. The record of Luke 22:20 quoting Jesus (God) says it has been.

bekkilyn said:

Yes, the law that Jesus *fulfilled* on the cross. Then he went on to detail *his* commandments in his Sermon on the Mount and didn't mention observing the Sabbath even once. Very curious considering it is supposedly *the* commandment upon which all salvation hinges.

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Yes it's very interesting. Not even in any of the accounts of the man asking Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life include the sabbath. I'm told that is a given. I ask aren't the commandments cited also givens?

Original Happy Camper said:

and whaat law might that be?

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Please tell us.

FreeAtLast said:

Yes, exactly. I did not state that the 1st day of the week is Sabbath. So please expound on your reply.

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Any day however can be a Sabbath....To rest every seven days. the command was given for those that have no power to rest for themselves.
Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

HARK! said:

One of the sources that I cited was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let's look at some more of that historical record. In the 5th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states the fact that until Constantine imposed Dies Solis (Sungod Day) on humanity, most assemblies and believers across the world at that time still kept The Sabbath even as late as 5 centuries later after Yahshua!

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost
all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath
of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some
ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

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Hello Hark.

What about this one.

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

This is not in Alexandria or Rome.

Notice the date.

HARK! said:

One of the sources that I cited was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let's look at some more of that historical record. In the 5th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states the fact that until Constantine imposed Dies Solis (Sungod Day) on humanity, most assemblies and believers across the world at that time still kept The Sabbath even as late as 5 centuries later after Yahshua!

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost
all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath
of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some
ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

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Hello Hark.

Council of Laodicea
"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord’s day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).

HARK! said:

One of the sources that I cited was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let's look at some more of that historical record. In the 5th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states the fact that until Constantine imposed Dies Solis (Sungod Day) on humanity, most assemblies and believers across the world at that time still kept The Sabbath even as late as 5 centuries later after Yahshua!

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost
all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath
of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some
ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

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Hello Hark.

So most Christians obeyed the Sabbath even as late as the 5th century?

Eusebius of Caesarea
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

Looks like the whole Christian world rejected the application of the law, i.e., circumcision and the Sabbath.

HARK! said:

One of the sources that I cited was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let's look at some more of that historical record. In the 5th century, Socrates Scholasticus Church History book 5 states the fact that until Constantine imposed Dies Solis (Sungod Day) on humanity, most assemblies and believers across the world at that time still kept The Sabbath even as late as 5 centuries later after Yahshua!

"Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost
all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath
of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some
ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."

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Hello Hark.

Christian history is the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Victorinus

"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

The Sabbath was discarded way before AD 300.

Justin Martyr 150 A.D.

HARK! said:

One of the sources that I cited was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

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We know that. None-the-less that doesn't make it true, Bob.