Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory

[Chesterton]

I'm going to take a random stab and suggest that the highest profile churches/church leaders in the US have a particular political leaning and don't make it a secret.

So the "highest profile" would be the ones you hear most about in mainstream media I guess?

 

[wing2000]

I can't remember the last time when they had a "good leader" TBH.

View attachment 341430

I guess the closest would maybe be Boris Yeltsin? (although he had some corruption/scandal problems, people weren't mysteriously falling out of windows as much and being arrested by the secret police as much when he was in charge)

It would seem as if Russia is one of the few peoples (barring maybe some Latin American countries) that have experienced "the worst of both worlds" having been on the losing end of both right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism.

Mikhail Gorbachev was a great leader IMO.

Mikhail Gorbachev: The Soviet leader who helped end the Cold War

His efforts to democratise his country led to the fall of communism, the end of the Cold War and the break-up of the Eastern Bloc.

www.bbc.com

 

[HTacianas]

This^ is obviously false as a generalization. Do I need to trot out the examples?

You can trot out as many examples as you want to. Let's take Hitler for example. When Germany invaded Greece during word war two the monks of Mount Athos sent Hitler a letter effectively surrendering to him. They basically said you're the emperor, okay, we want to be left alone. Not only did Hitler leave them alone, but he placed Mount Athos under his personal protection. Does this mean the monks of Mount Athos supported Hitler? No. It doesn't. It means they didn't care who was in charge of the government because they had no part in government.

In sum, just like the monks of Mount Athos, the Church offers prayers for civil leaders not because the Church supports any civil leaders, but as a testament that the Church is not a threat to the State. The only thing the Church asks in return is that the State not be a threat to the Church.

 

[durangodawood]

So that raises a more interesting conversation
(and I'm not picking on you here, I promise)

You had mentioned before that Russia in many respects was "amazing".

I think we've established that there's certainly nothing amazing about their systems of governance and their institutions over the past 120+ years.

That really only leaves aspects of their "culture" that are uniquely Russian.

Yet, when countries make "cultural assimilation" a priority with regards to immigration policy, there's often some flak for that sentiment.


The reason I bring this up is that when we ("we" as in people living in Westernized countries) discuss concepts like "melting pot vs tossed salad" and "whether or not it's okay for countries to have nationalistic sentiments with regards to culture", we kind of talk out of both sides of our mouths.

We only really talk about how great a unique "culture" can be, when the "culture" is the only thing a country has going for it.

For instance, in one conversation, when talking about a rich, developed country, we'll insist how important it is to embrace a "melting pot", yet, in a different conversation, we'll say that "appropriation is bad" when it involves traditions/etc... from places that aren't as privileged. (for instance, there were people who were a tad miffed for a while about white people having dread locks and/or choosing to wear garments that are specific to a particular African nation's culture, yet nobody is particularly upset if a Black or Asian guy wears a "kiss me, I'm Irish" shirt for St. Paddy's day)

Despite the fact that observing a different kind of person and saying "wow, I really like their traditional foods and style of clothing they wear and think some of their customs are pretty cool, I'm going to incorporate that" is basically the prerequisite for a melting pot.


But I digress, I've derailed this one a bit lol

Yeah, its certain aspects of Russian culture that Im talking about.

As for immigration in Europe, many countries there have had to deal with the reverberations from centuries of colonizing other countries. Whats the de facto national dish in Britain? Chicken tikka masala.

I'm a western-values person. All I want from immigrants is the basic respect for human liberty that underpins our system of government. Perhaps that a lot to expect when so many "natural born" Americans are drifting toward a strong-man sensibility.

 

[durangodawood]

You can trot out as many examples as you want to. Let's take Hitler for example. When Germany invaded Greece during word war two the monks of Mount Athos sent Hitler a letter effectively surrendering to him. They basically said you're the emperor, okay, we want to be left alone. Not only did Hitler leave them alone, but he placed Mount Athos under his personal protection. Does this mean the monks of Mount Athos supported Hitler? No. It doesn't. It means they didn't care who was in charge of the government because they had no part in government.

In sum, just like the monks of Mount Athos, the Church offers prayers for civil leaders not because the Church supports any civil leaders, but as a testament that the Church is not a threat to the State. The only thing the Church asks in return is that the State not be a threat to the Church.

They made their accomodation with evil and it worked out for them. OK.

Many others couldnt, which means that verse fails as a generalization.

(Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.)

Since you bring up Hitler, do you consider him to have been a terror to evil? Or a terror to good works?

 

[HTacianas]

They made their accomodation with evil and it worked out for them. OK.

Many others couldnt, which means that verse fails as a generalization.

(Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.)

Since you bring up Hitler, do you consider him to have been a terror to evil? Or a terror to good works?

Hitler was a terror to anyone who disagreed with him. But you seem to want people to mix religion with politics when it suits you, but not the other way around. Either we mix our religion with our politics or we do not. It's not situational. It's one or the other.

 

[durangodawood]

Hitler was a terror to anyone who disagreed with him.

Yes. But I didnt ask about that. I asked if he was a terror to good works. Could you respond to that question?

But you seem to want people to mix religion with politics when it suits you, but not the other way around.

Do I? Not finding where I disclosed that sentiment.

Either we mix our religion with our politics or we do not. It's not situational. It's one or the other.

I agree in that a person cannot in good conscience just shut off their values. But what Im seeing in America is a situation where church and party have largely fused into an operating unit. How do we square that with all the quotes you provided telling us that church should back away from overt concern about earthy governance?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Mikhail Gorbachev was a great leader IMO.

Mikhail Gorbachev: The Soviet leader who helped end the Cold War

His efforts to democratise his country led to the fall of communism, the end of the Cold War and the break-up of the Eastern Bloc.

www.bbc.com

I guess maybe he had his moments.

He did help with de-escalation efforts during the cold war (though, he really didn't have much of a choice in the name of self-preservation)

But he's also the same one who suppressed information after the Chernobyl disaster, as well as using military force and blockades to undermine other countries in the region when they tried to "vote their way out" of the USSR brand of collectivism.

 

[Chesterton]

Many others couldnt, which means that verse fails as a generalization.

Because it's not a generalization. Like pretty much all of Paul's letters, Romans is addressed to Christians.

Since you bring up Hitler, do you consider him to have been a terror to evil? Or a terror to good works?

We have to assume the verse is speaking of legitimate rulers. When a monarch leaves the throne to his son, that's legitimate, within a monarchical system. When a democratic people duly elect a ruler, that's legitimate. But Hitler declared himself dictator for life, which was breaking German law, so was basically a criminal act.

 

[durangodawood]

Because it's not a generalization. Like pretty much all of Paul's letters, Romans is addressed to Christians.

So apply the Hitler example, which HT brought up, just to Christians. Are you saying Hitler wasnt a terror to good works for Christians generally, the Mount Athos example notwithstanding.

We have to assume the verse is speaking of legitimate rulers. When a monarch leaves the throne to his son, that's legitimate, within a monarchical system. When a democratic people duly elect a ruler, that's legitimate. But Hitler declared himself dictator for life, which was breaking German law, so was basically a criminal act.

I dont buy that at all. Just having a process thats followed doesnt repel evil.

Plus pretty much every time you trace back monarchs we find their line installed in some war, or revolution, or assassination, or some other event where legitimacy takes the way-back seat to sheer force or even accident. And the origin of democratic republics too: violent revolution in the US case.

 

[Chesterton]

So apply the Hitler example, which HT brought up, just to Christians. Are you saying Hitler wasnt a terror to good works for Christians generally, the Mount Athos example notwithstanding.

No, that's not what I said at all.

I dont buy that at all. Just having a process thats followed doesnt repel evil.

Plus pretty much every time you trace back monarchs we find their line installed in some war, or revolution, or assassination, or some other event where legitimacy takes the way-back seat to sheer force or even accident. And the origin of democratic republics too: violent revolution in the US case.

Those cases could also be illegitimate.