Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory

[Nithavela]

Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory. The Russian priest Alexei Uminsky is also known for his liberal position in wartime. He refused to read a prayer invoking a Russian victory in Ukraine. This now has consequences. The 63-year-old had encouraged believers to attend services that do not pray for the war. He is also no longer allowed to hold church services. With his actions, he had broken his priestly oath, the court ruling said. For his refusal to recite the victory prayer, Uminsky should be expelled from the priestly order.

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory. The Russian priest Alexei Uminsky is also known for his liberal position in wartime. He refused to read a prayer invoking a Russian victory in Ukraine. This now has consequences. The 63-year-old had encouraged...

www.tellerreport.com

 

[ThatRobGuy]

We can't really be too shocked by this, can we?

A) It shows the outcome of when "Church & State" don't have an adequate level of separation.

B) Many other countries aren't in a position to throw stones on this one...

We have evangelical churches in the US doing this kind of stuff

(encouraging little kids to lay hands on a carboard cutout of a republican president because the adults in the church happened to prefer him over Al Gore...ironically, many of those same adults shown in the video would be anti-Bush now since there's a new demagoguery in town)

China made it's own version of the Bible that conveniently scrubs out all of the parts that may lead one to be critical of their government

And the Islamic countries? Fuhgeddaboudit...church & state are so intermingled in those countries that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

While this sort of thing should be alarming, it's one of those things where the number of people who can "throw stones" is rather limited.


People have grown to a level of pettiness where they see religions (that they, themselves, don't even subscribe to) as a tool. Even here on CF, there's been quite a few "Well, I guess the Pope's cool when he's on my side of the issue du jour" kind of threads.

 

[Nithavela]

We can't really be too shocked by this, can we?

A) It shows the outcome of when "Church & State" don't have an adequate level of separation.

B) Many other countries aren't in a position to throw stones on this one...

We have evangelical churches in the US doing this kind of stuff

(encouraging little kids to lay hands on a carboard cutout of a republican president because the adults in the church happened to prefer him over Al Gore...ironically, many of those same adults shown in the video would be anti-Bush now since there's a new demagoguery in town)

China made it's own version of the Bible that conveniently scrubs out all of the parts that may lead one to be critical of their government

And the Islamic countries? Fuhgeddaboudit...church & state are so intermingled in those countries that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

While this sort of thing should be alarming, it's one of those things where the number of people who can "throw stones" is rather limited.


People have grown to a level of pettiness where they see religions (that they, themselves, don't even subscribe to) as a tool. Even here on CF, there's been quite a few "Well, I guess the Pope's cool when he's on my side of the issue du jour" kind of threads.

Yes, yes, both sides.

 

[HTacianas]

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory. The Russian priest Alexei Uminsky is also known for his liberal position in wartime. He refused to read a prayer invoking a Russian victory in Ukraine. This now has consequences. The 63-year-old had encouraged...

www.tellerreport.com

It is part of the Liturgy. In the US the Liturgy goes, in part,

"For the President of the United States and our elected leaders and civil servants let us pray to the Lord."

"And for our armed forces stationed around the world that they might have victory over all enemies let us pray to the Lord".

Notice that it doesn't matter who the President is or whether anyone likes him or not. It is a prayer for government officials. And it might well be a Church in one country praying for its government officials and armies while they are at war with another country whose Church is praying for their own government officials and armies. What does the bible say about it:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

Rom 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Jesus even said to Pilate:

Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.

So as part of the Liturgy we pray for our leaders. Regardless of who they are. And the Liturgy cannot be changed by a priest.

 

[rusmeister]

It is part of the Liturgy. In the US the Liturgy goes, in part,

"For the President of the United States and our elected leaders and civil servants let us pray to the Lord."

"And for our armed forces stationed around the world that they might have victory over all enemies let us pray to the Lord".

Notice that it doesn't matter who the President is or whether anyone likes him or not. It is a prayer for government officials. And it might well be a Church in one country praying for its government officials and armies while they are at war with another country whose Church is praying for their own government officials and armies. What does the bible say about it:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

Rom 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Jesus even said to Pilate:

Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.

So as part of the Liturgy we pray for our leaders. Regardless of who they are. And the Liturgy cannot be changed by a priest.

I have never seen that second part “

"And for our armed forces stationed around the world that they might have victory over all enemies let us pray to the Lord".”
in any liturgical text.

it is vital to make it a distinction between praying for a country’s leaders, and praying for a victory in a war. And to the best of my knowledge, even a patriarch may not change the liturgy, which is what essentially was done. it was a special add-on for this event, a secular event in this world which is no holy war and has nothing to do with the kingdom of God.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, yes, both sides.

How is this a "both sides" thing?

Is lack of separation of Church & State not a common concern of many in the US, and is it not a principle that many nations have run afoul on? (which has lead to some problematic outcomes)

 

[durangodawood]

Clearly one of the purposes of Russian Christianity is to uphold the current political order.

Similarly, but to a bit lesser extent, the purpose us US Christianity is to be the ideological compliance wing of the R party.

 

[durangodawood]

....
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
....

This^ is obviously false as a generalization. Do I need to trot out the examples?

 

[Nithavela]

How is this a "both sides" thing?

Is lack of separation of Church & State not a common concern of many in the US, and is it not a principle that many nations have run afoul on? (which has lead to some problematic outcomes)

Just commenting on you veering off into talking about everyone else doing the same thing, as per usual.

 

[Laodicean60]

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory

Russia: Orthodox priest faces expulsion for not asking God for Russian victory. The Russian priest Alexei Uminsky is also known for his liberal position in wartime. He refused to read a prayer invoking a Russian victory in Ukraine. This now has consequences. The 63-year-old had encouraged...

www.tellerreport.com

All I can say is this dude has guts, especially in Russia.

"And for our armed forces stationed around the world that they might have victory over all enemies let us pray to the Lord".”
in any liturgical text.

it is vital to make it a distinction between praying for a country’s leaders, and praying for a victory in a war. And to the best of my knowledge, even a patriarch may not change the liturgy, which is what essentially was done. it was a special add-on for this event, a secular event in this world which is no holy war and has nothing to do with the kingdom of God.

People all over the world pray for all sorts of desires and outcomes. God has his plan and he won't play favorites. Why do we argue over politics if God places those in authority? Those prayers for Bush are canceled by those praying for Gore and we should believe as Christians, it was chosen by God whether we like the outcome or not.

Rom 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Just commenting on you veering off into talking about everyone else doing the same thing, as per usual.

So if you weren't looking to discuss the aspects of the perils of when Church & State get too cozy, then what exactly is the point of the thread?

Since you just posted the snippet of the article along with the link, you didn't really specify which aspects of this you wanted to delve into...therefore, there really wasn't anything to "veer off of"

Maybe we can reign it in a bit if you specify which aspect you wanted to discuss.

Is this thread supposed to be a thread focused on...
A) Church & State mingling is bad
or
B) Russia is bad
?

 

[durangodawood]

....
B) Russia is bad

Putin's Russia is bad.

In many respects Russia is amazing imo, and Im saddened at the state of the place.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Putin's Russia is bad.

In many respects Russia is amazing imo, and Im saddened at the state of the place.

I can't remember the last time when they had a "good leader" TBH.

I guess the closest would maybe be Boris Yeltsin? (although he had some corruption/scandal problems, people weren't mysteriously falling out of windows as much and being arrested by the secret police as much when he was in charge)

It would seem as if Russia is one of the few peoples (barring maybe some Latin American countries) that have experienced "the worst of both worlds" having been on the losing end of both right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism.

 

[durangodawood]

I can't remember the last time when they had a "good leader" TBH.

View attachment 341430

I guess the closest would maybe be Boris Yeltsin? (although he had some corruption/scandal problems, people weren't mysteriously falling out of windows as much and being arrested by the secret police as much when he was in charge)

It would seem as if Russia is one of the few peoples (barring maybe some Latin American countries) that have experienced "the worst of both worlds" having been on the losing end of both right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism.

I don't think the Tsars were that terrific either....

 

[Chesterton]

I have never seen that second part “

"And for our armed forces stationed around the world that they might have victory over all enemies let us pray to the Lord".”
in any liturgical text.

I've never seen it either. Prayer for leaders and armed forces yes, but never for victory over enemies.

On a related note, the first time I ever visited an Orthodox church I was very Protestant-minded and I disliked almost everything about it. But the first thing that caught my eye, or caught my mind, was that this was during the time period when the bloody aftermath of the second U.S./Iraq was just winding down, and I was surrounded by Arab-Americans praying for U.S. armed forces. And I realized that the liturgy was unchanging, so they would be praying for leaders whether the leaders were Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. The thought occurred to me that maybe these people are doing Christianity correctly, or at least more correct than others I had come across.

That's the short version, the story's actually more involved than that, but this probably isn't the right forum for it.

 

[Chesterton]

Similarly, but to a bit lesser extent, the purpose us US Christianity is to be the ideological compliance wing of the R party.

I think you know little of contemporary Christianity in the U.S., which is so all over the map you'd have a hard time finding two churches to agree what color the sky is.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think the Tsars were that terrific either....

So that raises a more interesting conversation
(and I'm not picking on you here, I promise)

You had mentioned before that Russia in many respects was "amazing".

I think we've established that there's certainly nothing amazing about their systems of governance and their institutions over the past 120+ years.

That really only leaves aspects of their "culture" that are uniquely Russian.

Yet, when countries make "cultural assimilation" a priority with regards to immigration policy, there's often some flak for that sentiment.


The reason I bring this up is that when we ("we" as in people living in Westernized countries) discuss concepts like "melting pot vs tossed salad" and "whether or not it's okay for countries to have nationalistic sentiments with regards to culture", we kind of talk out of both sides of our mouths.

We only really talk about how great a unique "culture" can be, when the "culture" is the only thing a country has going for it.

For instance, in one conversation, when talking about a rich, developed country, we'll insist how important it is to embrace a "melting pot", yet, in a different conversation, we'll say that "appropriation is bad" when it involves traditions/etc... from places that aren't as privileged. (for instance, there were people who were a tad miffed for a while about white people having dread locks and/or choosing to wear garments that are specific to a particular African nation's culture, yet nobody is particularly upset if a Black or Asian guy wears a "kiss me, I'm Irish" shirt for St. Paddy's day)

Despite the fact that observing a different kind of person and saying "wow, I really like their traditional foods and style of clothing they wear and think some of their customs are pretty cool, I'm going to incorporate that" is basically the prerequisite for a melting pot.


But I digress, I've derailed this one a bit lol

 

[durangodawood]

I think you know little of contemporary Christianity in the U.S., which is so all over the map you'd have a hard time finding two churches to agree what color the sky is.

The color of the sky isnt that important compared to what color party you should vote for.

Im aware there are many flavors of church in the US. But the ones that burn hottest seem to be dedicated to a certain spectrum of politics..... to the point that, from the outsider perspective, thats what church seems to be about.

 

[Chesterton]

The color of the sky isnt that important compared to what color party you should vote for.

Im aware there are many flavors of church in the US. But the ones that burn hottest seem to be dedicated to a certain spectrum of politics..... to the point that, from the outsider perspective, thats what church seems to be about.

What does "burn hottest" mean? I think I might know, but I don't want to guess and be wrong.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What does "burn hottest" mean? I think I might know, but I don't want to guess and be wrong.

I'm going to take a random stab and suggest that the highest profile churches/church leaders in the US have a particular political leaning and don't make it a secret.

For instance (as an Ohioan that lives in close proximity to multiple houses of worship spanning the spectrum of denominations), it's not uncommon to see some churches that put rainbow flags out, and other churches where the parking lot is filled with cars with no shortage of pro-Trump, MAGA bumper stickers.

Clearly certain religious persuasions have certain political leanings, to deny that would be to deny reality.

The reality is, you're not going to find too many progressive Southern Baptists or Pentecostal churches, and you're not going to find too many staunch conservative Unitarians.