Rules change....

Tellyontellyon

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Hi there is something in the Bible where Jesus says that a rule was only brought in because the people were hard hearted.... but then he changed things .... and in another place Peter, in the time of the early church, had a vision that suggested that gentiles should not be excluded and showing that no foods were unacceptable.
Because of that, Christians no longer eat Kosher food.
Paul also had visions and for new teachings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit...
So ...

Is it reasonable to regard the wishes of God and the message of God, and the rules God wants us to follow as something potentially flexible, and it is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??
 

Sketcher

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What you are referring to is commands given in different covenants. For there to be a change in command, there has to be a change in covenant. The change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant was foretold in the Old Testament by Moses and the other prophets, but there won't be another one before Christ returns.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Is it reasonable to regard the wishes of God and the message of God, and the rules God wants us to follow as something potentially flexible, and it is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??

In some ways, I will try to lay out a few topics because you basically are touching on a few different things.


1) In Christian there is the potential of new revelation, and you actually see that in the Bible.

MATTHEW 13:52
Then said He unto them, “Therefore every scribe who is instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.”


Matthew 9:17
New International Version
17 Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”



And I think this is especially true for Christians in their personal theology etc. where they often realize that Spirituality various doctrines etc. have a lot more angles and moving parts etc. than when they first began studying them etc.


There are some basic rules etc. that govern things. Like the new rules don't negate the Old ways, as much showing a better way, especially when it comes to things like the heart of God, or what the original intent of whatever commandment etc. was.



2) There is a concept called "Economy" in the Greek, which originally refers to the rules how people use to run their ancient households especially the big estates with multiple servants, family members etc.

Economy (religion) - Wikipedia


You can almost think about it as a kind of psychology or sociology of Faith that we gain insight into God according to how he has operated in the past as far as dealing with the early Patriarchs, Israel, the Church etc. In the same way, you can build a profile of an individual and get his philosophy, personality etc. of a person you can do that based on past actions with God to some degree because he reveals Himself through His commandments, prophecies etc.


And well in Christianity that has been a guiding principle. Like when God does something "new" like letting the gentiles in the Church without being circumcised, that doesn't take place in a vacuum. There are some older precedents and principles that support that. So while it is new to go that far, it is not something that is completely out of the blue or unquestionable. E.G. there were prophecies in the Old Testament in regards to the gentiles coming in etc. e.g. - Isaiah said Immanuel (Christ) will be a light, to Lighten the Gentiles. God mentioned in the Psalms he would "make the nations his inheritance", he said in the Book of Amos that all nations would be called by his name (be adopted) etc.



But a lot of this also is an understanding of the Seasons which is another aspect of prophecy. In the Greek their are two kinds of time, literal chronos where we get Chronological time. But you got the seasonal time, Kairos which speaks of the proper time to do something. And in this case it is when a prophecy should be fulfilled.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi there is something in the Bible where Jesus says that a rule was only brought in because the people were hard hearted.... but then he changed things .... and in another place Peter, in the time of the early church, had a vision that suggested that gentiles should not be excluded and showing that no foods were unacceptable.
Because of that, Christians no longer eat Kosher food.
Paul also had visions and for new teachings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit...
So ...

Is it reasonable to regard the wishes of God and the message of God, and the rules God wants us to follow as something potentially flexible, and it is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??

Fresh revelation and insight comes mostly from studying the Holy Scriptures. The more we study the more is revealed through them to us.

God communicates with us on our human level using human terms/characteristics/behaviors that we can relate to and by doing so it aids in our understanding and learning of His character and principles.

God knows everything that is going to happen before it happens. So no He does not change His mind.

Any seeming change in God's dealings is from humanity's point of view not God's.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello @Tellyontellyon, we are not "flexible" in regard to what the Bible teaches us, though we are, of course, flexible to both changes or to things that 'appear' to be changes that ~God~ made when He superintended the writing of the NT Gospels and Epistles.

That said, if ALL of it is not the inspired (literally "breathed") word of God that it claims to be .. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21, then it should be discarded immediately (as the musings of men about the Divine can hardly be considered as binding upon anyone's heart).

There is already a long history in various churches of some who have set aside the Scriptures by claiming that they received a special revelation from the Holy Spirit to do so (in an attempt to justify their personal and/or their church's NON-Scriptural presuppositions).

Calvin wrote concerning this common practice about 500 years ago in what is perhaps the most famous of all of his letters, his Reply to Cardinal Sadoleto (1539). Here it is in small part.

We are assailed by two sects, which seem to differ most widely from each other. For what similitude is there in appearance between the Pope and the Anabaptists? And yet, that you may see that Satan never transforms himself so cunningly, as not in some measure to betray himself, the principal weapon with which they both assail us is the same. For when they boast extravagantly of the Spirit, the tendency certainly is to sink and bury the Word of God, ~that they may make room for their own falsehoods~.
In the same letter he also wrote how the word of God and the Holy Spirit operate together as one, NOT in opposition to one another.

The Spirit goes before the Church, to enlighten her in understanding the Word, while the Word itself is like the Lydian Stone, by which she [the church] tests all doctrines.

Learn, then, by your own experience, that it is no less unreasonable to boast of the Spirit without the Word, than it would be absurd to bring forward the Word itself without the Spirit. ~Calvin, John, Reply to Sadoleto (1539)
Without the Bible to turn to as our regula fidei (rule of faith), anything goes. People can and have justified their sinful &/or non-Biblical choices/beliefs over millennia .. by claiming the leading of the Holy Spirit (even though what they claim the Holy Spirit has led them to do or believe stands in direct opposition to what He told them is true in His "breathed" word, the Bible).

You have broached a topic which would take a LOT of time and effort to fully explain. This is a large part of it however, and I hope what I wrote makes sense to you. If not, please let me know and I'll try again :)

--David
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi there is something in the Bible where Jesus says that a rule was only brought in because the people were hard hearted.... but then he changed things .... and in another place Peter, in the time of the early church, had a vision that suggested that gentiles should not be excluded and showing that no foods were unacceptable.
Because of that, Christians no longer eat Kosher food.
Paul also had visions and for new teachings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit...
So ...

Is it reasonable to regard the wishes of God and the message of God, and the rules God wants us to follow as something potentially flexible, and it is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??

The concept here is something that is sometimes called "progressive revelation". That is, in the unfolding of history and God's dealings with humanity in history, rather than there being what we might call a "information dump", God worked from within the structures and views of people. And it is through the building of the relationship between people and God that God made Himself better known and understood. When you first meet someone you don't know everything about them, but as you grow with them with time, you learn more about them. In a similar way, we see an evolving understanding of God, that ultimately reaches climax with Jesus, who is not merely another prophet in a long line of prophets, but is the very and only-begotten Son of the Father. We don't merely get people talking about God, but we get God Himself.

So, in the case of divorce as Jesus talks about, divorce was permitted as a kind of compromise; but the ideal of marriage means there shouldn't be any divorce.

Of course what Jesus Himself says needs to be understood in an historic and also rabbinical context.

In the time of Jesus there were two major rabbinical schools, Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai. And these two schools provided rabbinical commentary and interpretations to a number of matters of Torah application or halakhah. Bet Hillel maintained that a husband could deliver to his wife a certificate of divorce for nearly any reason, famously including even something as trivial as the wife burning a meal. And thus took a rather liberal view of divorce. Bet Shammai, on the other hand, took a far more conservative view, arguing that a husband may only give his wife a certificate of divorce for serious matters, for example infidelity. Jesus' position is remarkably close to the position held by Bet Shammai. That divorce should be viewed as an exception, not the rule.

Note that Jesus does not straight out forbid divorce, but rather calls His followers to a deeper understanding, and that marriage and divorce are things that should be taken with a great deal of seriousness. Divorce was permitted, because humans are stubborn and fallible; but the ideal is that when a man takes a woman as his wife, he has made a serious commitment that he can't simply revoke on some whim. It's important, to note that I have spoken about a husband delivering his wife a certificate of divorce. Because, generally speaking, the husband could divorce his wife, but a wife divorcing her husband was a much more difficult thing. A husband nearly had to request a certificate, and then present it to his wife, and that was that, handing the wife the certificate of divorce was all that that was required. So when Jesus takes the more hard-line position that a husband shouldn't deliver a certificate of divorce except for something serious, Jesus is placing a greater degree of responsibility on the husband--his marital commitment is serious, and cannot be frivolously tossed away.

In the broader context of progressive revelation, there is also the understanding that under the Torah God was curbing evil, and thus boundaries were being established to provide a "this far, no further" approach. That's the point of "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth", a concept that didn't first show up in the Torah which God gave Israel, but is first recorded in the Code of Hammurabi. And so, in a sense, part of what is going on is a working from within the culture of the Israelites, and establishing legal boundaries so that they have a codified legal code, placing limits without necessarily outright forbidding certain things. "Eye for an eye" is a limit on retaliation, a person cannot simply go out and take revenge and, in anger, cause more harm; but rather the matter must be brought before the court, and the extant that the court is permitted to allow is "an eye for an eye", that is an equal measure. If I steal your ox, slaughter it, and eat its meat, the court can award you compensation for that ox; but it cannot go further. If I steal your ox, you can have one of my oxen, or a monetary compensation, but you can't kill me, or go and kill all my livestock, or something like that.

But Jesus goes further, arguing that for those who follow Him, it's not even about just compensation. Instead, if we are injured, we should respond with compassion and mercy. If you steal my ox, you may have my ox; if you strike me, rather than striking you in return, I offer the other cheek instead. Thus Jesus presents a deeper moral command; though it may be justifiable to demand compensation, the good way is to not give in to retaliatory justice, but healing justice. Which not only establishes what kind of way or rule which His followers ought to abide by, but which establishes what kind of kingdom His is, and His Way. Jesus not only teaches healing justice, but lives it--by embracing the suffering He would receive upon the cross. He does not exploit His "rights", as it were, but rather endures, and embraces, the pain and the suffering He will receive in order to reconcile, and to heal.

God reveals Himself to be better than fair, but rather that He is mercy.

In the case of St. Peter's vision, this is more-or-less God's way to rattle Peter awake, and to really hammer the point that this whole Gospel thing is for everybody. Jesus had commanded His apostles to preach the Gospel and make disciples of all nations, but hitherto the Apostles seem to have not grasped just what was meant. So Peter's vision is to get him to, "Oh yeah, duh, that is what He said to do isn't it?" The Gentiles were always to be included, it's just up until this point the early Church didn't seem to have gotten it quite yet through their heads that the Gospel really is as universal as Jesus said it was, and that it's exactly what God had always been saying through the Prophets anyway. Centuries before God had spoken through His prophets, speaking of the day when the Gentiles would come in, He speaks of the day where even Israel's most infamous enemies: Egypt and Assyria, would be included among God's people.

"In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, 'Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.'" - Isaiah 19:24-25

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dqhall

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Hi there is something in the Bible where Jesus says that a rule was only brought in because the people were hard hearted.... but then he changed things .... and in another place Peter, in the time of the early church, had a vision that suggested that gentiles should not be excluded and showing that no foods were unacceptable.
Because of that, Christians no longer eat Kosher food.
Paul also had visions and for new teachings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit...
So ...

Is it reasonable to regard the wishes of God and the message of God, and the rules God wants us to follow as something potentially flexible, and it is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??
There is a rule in the Bible allowing a man to divorce his wife. People wondered if a husband could divorce his wife for any reason. Jesus advised against divorce except for the worse cases.

Matthew 19:3 (WEB) Pharisees came to him, testing him and saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?”

4 He answered, “Haven’t you read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, Genesis 1:27 5 and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?’ Genesis 2:24 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, don’t let man tear apart.”

7 They asked him, “Why then did Moses command us to give her a certificate of divorce and divorce her?”

8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it has not been so. 9 I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries her when she is divorced commits adultery.”

In Acts 15 Gentile believers are allowed to skip circumcision. In another instance Jesus and his disciples were gathering grain to eat on the seventh day, the Sabbath. This was a crime the Bible recommended death by stoning for. The Jews wanted to kill him. Jesus made working on the seventh day legal as his father worked seven days a week.
 
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Tolworth John

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is a mistake to make the Bible the highest authority, but rather Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the highest authority... and we should be open to fresh revelation and fresh insight??

Turning it round.
What would it take for a New Buddhist teacher to found a new sect or branch of Buddhism?

In Christianity Jesus is the inal messenger from God, who achieved all that God had planned and foretold.
There is no further prophet or messengers, no further revelation as Jesus was the final revelation.

The apostles did not give any new message, they only elaborated on what Jesus had taught them.
 
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