Rule of the Theotokos

Victory123 · Jan 25, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
Victory,
St. Seraphim of Sarov never used this, he is wrongly being attributed. Now I don' know what exact devotions the Copts have, but they do not have a rosary prayer neither. Considering this rule makes mention of toll houses and the feast of the Theotokos of the Protecting veil makes it impossible that this is Coptic in anyway.

And no, The Jews of Egypt did not use Coptic. They spoke Greek this is why the Greek ruler Ptolemy in 280 BC translated the Torah into greek for his library. It was this translaton called the Septuagint that the Jews of the diaspora adopted.

Coptic
Era 2nd – 17th century. Survives as the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, with sporadic attempts at revival.
Language family Afro-Asiatic Egyptian Coptic
Early forms Archaic Egyptian Old Egyptian Middle Egyptian Late Egyptian Demotic
Writing system Coptic alphabet
Coptic had Greek adaptations due to Greek influence which come from conquering people. However, it is clear that by the late pharaonic period, demotic scribes regularly employed a more phonetic orthography, a testament to the increasing cultural contact between Egyptians and Greeks even before Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt. Coptic itself, or Old Coptic, takes root in the first century.

Coptic or Coptic Egyptian (Bohairic: ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ti.met.rem.ən.khēmi and Sahidic: ⲧⲙⲛ̄ⲧⲣⲙ̄ⲛ̄ⲕⲏⲙⲉ t.mənt.rəm.ən.kēme) is the latest stage of the Egyptian language, a northern Afroasiatic language spoken in Egypt until at least the 17th century.[2] Egyptian began to be written in the Coptic alphabet, an adaptation of the Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from demotic to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have, in the first century AD.

All4Christ · Jan 25, 2018

Demotic script was the common language up through around the second century, but Greek was used for legal and administrative purposes. Egyptian (non-Christian) priests used hieroglyphs. Coptic was a combination of Greek and hieroglyphs formed into a script. The Rosetta Stone is fascinating with this.

That said, around the time of the translation of the Septuagint, the Jews in the era of Ptolemy did speak Greek (mixed with Hebrew).

The Jews who lived in Egypt had originally immigrated from the Southern Levant. The Jews absorbed Greek, the dominant language of Egypt at the time, and heavily mixed it with Hebrew.[21] The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures, appeared and was written by seventy Jewish Translators under royal compulsion during Ptolemy II's reign.[22] That is confirmed by historian Flavius Josephus, who writes that Ptolemy, desirous to collect every book in the habitable earth, applied Demetrius Phalereus to the task of organizing an effort with the Jewish high priests to translate the Jewish books of the Law for his library.[23] Josephus thus places the origins of the Septuagint in the 3rd century BC, when Demetrius and Ptolemy II lived. According to Jewish legend, the seventy wrote their translations independently from memory, and the resultant works were identical at every letter.
Ptolemaic Kingdom - Wikipedia

Victory123 said:
Coptic
Era 2nd – 17th century. Survives as the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, with sporadic attempts at revival.
Language family Afro-Asiatic Egyptian Coptic
Early forms Archaic Egyptian Old Egyptian Middle Egyptian Late Egyptian Demotic
Writing system Coptic alphabet
Coptic had Greek adaptations due to Greek influence which come from conquering people. However, it is clear that by the late pharaonic period, demotic scribes regularly employed a more phonetic orthography, a testament to the increasing cultural contact between Egyptians and Greeks even before Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt. Coptic itself, or Old Coptic, takes root in the first century.

Coptic or Coptic Egyptian (Bohairic: ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ti.met.rem.ən.khēmi and Sahidic: ⲧⲙⲛ̄ⲧⲣⲙ̄ⲛ̄ⲕⲏⲙⲉ t.mənt.rəm.ən.kēme) is the latest stage of the Egyptian language, a northern Afroasiatic language spoken in Egypt until at least the 17th century.[2] Egyptian began to be written in the Coptic alphabet, an adaptation of the Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from demotic to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have, in the first century AD.

I don’t understand how this is relevant though. The Church was one before the schism of Chalcedon in 451AD. In the first century, all Christians in Egypt were part of the Church...which continues to this day. There was one Christian faith (albeit with heretical groups like Montanists and Arians here and there).

prodromos · Jan 25, 2018

Victory123 said:
Coptic
Era 2nd – 17th century. Survives as the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, with sporadic attempts at revival.
Language family Afro-Asiatic Egyptian Coptic
Early forms Archaic Egyptian Old Egyptian Middle Egyptian Late Egyptian Demotic
Writing system Coptic alphabet
Coptic had Greek adaptations due to Greek influence which come from conquering people. However, it is clear that by the late pharaonic period, demotic scribes regularly employed a more phonetic orthography, a testament to the increasing cultural contact between Egyptians and Greeks even before Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt. Coptic itself, or Old Coptic, takes root in the first century.

Coptic or Coptic Egyptian (Bohairic: ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ti.met.rem.ən.khēmi and Sahidic: ⲧⲙⲛ̄ⲧⲣⲙ̄ⲛ̄ⲕⲏⲙⲉ t.mənt.rəm.ən.kēme) is the latest stage of the Egyptian language, a northern Afroasiatic language spoken in Egypt until at least the 17th century.[2] Egyptian began to be written in the Coptic alphabet, an adaptation of the Greek alphabet with the addition of six or seven signs from demotic to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have, in the first century AD.

When quoting an external source, it is considered proper to include a link or reference.

Anhelyna · Jan 26, 2018

Gentle members and guests

I am most reluctantly closing this thread for 24 hour hours so that all involved in it can reflect on what has been posted.

In the meantime I would ask all posters to once again review the SOP of TAW

Anhelyna - Senior Ambassador member

~Anastasia~ · Jan 26, 2018

Albion said:
Thanks again. I'm sorry to learn that all is not exactly well, but I am encouraged that you said you are optimistic and that there is reason for optimism.

Lately, I have been walking on eggs whenever I post to anyone on CF who is of another Christian church. Some take offense at anything, but others enjoy a give and take so long as obviously insulting comments aren't part of it. What I've seen happening is that so many people have confined their ideas and opinions to the forums of their own families of faith--safe houses, some call them--that I never get to talk to them anymore, but I used to. When did this all change?

It's a shame IMHO. I see interesting threads constantly being posted in the Catholic or the Orthodox or the Baptist forums, but can outsiders post on them? Who knows.

My experience in the Catholic forum is that they allow discussion in fellowship. Where I've disagreed, I might have mentioned that, but I don't explain how or why or argue my point, since it would be against the rules. The same has been true in other congregational forums I've posted in.

You are welcome to post in TAW in fellowship. We actually allow debate, but it would require a new thread started in St. Justin's which could be linked in a TAW thread.

I've stayed about 80-90% in TAW myself, just to try to avoid inevitable controversies. But there are still folks in other areas who are able to accept we might not agree and can still respect each other. It seems many folks don't believe that anymore. Maybe it's today's political or academic climate that influences that? I don't know ...

abacabb3 · Jan 29, 2018

whats the diffnerence between this and the rosary

Albion · Jan 29, 2018

What's the difference between what and the rosary?

prodromos · Jan 29, 2018

Albion said:
What's the difference between what and the rosary?

The OP, I would presume.

Albion · Jan 29, 2018

That was the only guess I had, too. But...?

buzuxi02 · Jan 29, 2018

The prayer in the OP recalls Orthodox events. For example the final step in St. Seraphim's rule recalls the miracle which occurred in the 8th cenury Constantinople when an Arab invasion was repelled and the city suffered no harm. This miracle has its own feast day called the Theotokos of the Holy Protecting Veil (Ayia Skepi in greek). This feast day is actually more popular amongst the Russians than the Greeks.

Regardless this prayer rule is a rarely used private devotion of which 98% of Orthodoxy is unaware of and most likely did not exist before 1920. Prayer ropes themselves in the Greek tradition are rarely used outside of the monastic tradition. In Greece Komboloi (worry beads) are what greek men use as the modern day equivalent of fidget spinners.

Bumble Bee · Jan 29, 2018

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Victory123 · Jan 30, 2018

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1 The Teacher is Christ, and who he appoints, the 24 elders
any breach of that is heresy.
Discipleship is training someone up in righteousness; therefore the greatest role of a teacher is to make disciples. Christ is the only one training up people in righteousness.

ArmyMatt · Jan 30, 2018

Victory123 said:
"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1 The Teacher is Christ, and who he appoints, the 24 elders
any breach of that is heresy.
Discipleship is training someone up in righteousness; therefore the greatest role of a teacher is to make disciples. Christ is the only one training up people in righteousness.

so, are you saying that there are only Christ and the 24 Elders as teachers of the Church? because that would be untrue.

Victory123 · Jan 30, 2018

ArmyMatt said:
so, are you saying that there are only Christ and the 24 Elders as teachers of the Church? because that would be untrue.

I am saying all who knew before anyone are the Doctrinal Father's and our Mother of course, and John the Baptist who instituted the 'Rite" of baptism. If one strays from their doctrine, "BREACH". Measure all men by that. Much heresy running amuck. Most people are following it. If you are the real deal you will have eyes to see it. Silence, not an option. Lukewarmness - God hates weakness. Weak love is based in fear, perfect love knows no fear. It's the fearless who enter heaven. God Bless!

ArmyMatt · Jan 30, 2018

Victory123 said:
I am saying all who knew before anyone are the Doctrinal Father's and our Mother of course, and John the Baptist who instituted the 'Rite" of baptism. If one strays from their doctrine, "BREACH". Measure all men by that. Much heresy running amuck. Most people are following it. If you are the real deal you will have eyes to see it. Silence, not an option. Lukewarmness - God hates weakness. Weak love is based in fear, perfect love knows no fear. It's the fearless who enter heaven. God Bless!

so, just to be clear, there have been many teachers of the Church through the years, yes?

Victory123 · Jan 30, 2018

To know who those are who follow the Lord, measure their words and actions by Christ. People then will not fall pray to heretical teachings. If they do not contradict Christ and the Elders=doctrinal fathers, then they are true. 2 Corinthians 6:13-15
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…

2John1:9-11Beware of Deceivers
…9Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. 11Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds.…
Believers have no partnership with , Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism , or any other religion outside of that which Christ established. There is NO "UNITY PRAYER" moment for us with any other faith. Scripture is clear.
And the Lord does not care about so called "good Intentions" there is NO peace if it is not Built upon Christ. It will always fall short, mans will, is NOT God's, for God's ways are NOT mans, and man does not see as God sees. Mans wisdom, is the earthly, devilish kind, and could not even touch God's foolishness , if it is possible for God to be.
John 14:6-7
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Christianity is one, there is one doctrine , its foundation has been laid. All teachings must ONLY expound upon in loyalty to Christ, not man. And from my "Mother of God" to me also as mother, this for all the lurkers, she says: " DO WHATEVER HE SAYS". You know who you are, and Christ knows you for what you are. It is right to fear the toppling of your thrones. (AND SHE BROUGHT FORTH THE MALE CHILD WHO WAS CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND HIS THRONE), WAS means He already has been. Now this is in the soul. It is done with His mother, MARY. Be not fooled by men holding Rosaries, or say they pray the "Rule of Theotokos, who appear to be leading in prayer, seek to hear it uttered from their mouths. For looks are deceiving and these men, say they "CONFESS" and promote that you should confess, but they actually do not. They seek only to grow rich and powerful and are drunk on the blood of martyrs and saints.
Matthew 23:23-25Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
…23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…
Listen and watch!
If a Shepherd abides then he is in Christ.

All4Christ · Jan 30, 2018

Certainly nothing we do or teach can contradict Christ’s teachings. We cannot put our trust in our own understanding. However, we are all given roles as part of the Body of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11-16 NKJV said:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love

I am thankful that God still works in the Church today and that He has not left the Body of Christ without His Holy Spirit. I am thankful He gives the gifts of teaching, evangelizing, pastoring and more.

Romans 12:3-8 NKJV said:
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, beingmany, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

All respect or honor to the Theotokos should always lead back to Christ. As Scripture says:

Luke 1:39-55 said:
Luke 1
39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”

The Song of Mary
46 And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

All generations will call her blessed - and it all leads back to Christ.

Martin Luther said something that I resonate with - and that I consider to be very Orthodox theologically:

Luthers Works said:
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man's understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child.... Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God.... None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God."[9]

The Rule of the Theotokos is fairly recent...but far be it from me to judge those who utilize it. (I’m not personally comfortable with praying it, probably because of my background. I tend to stick to the “More Honorable than the Cherubim”, Magnificat, etc.) However, we are known by our fruits - and God is the judge of all.

ArmyMatt · Jan 31, 2018

Victory123 said:
To know who those are who follow the Lord, measure their words and actions by Christ. People then will not fall pray to heretical teachings. If they do not contradict Christ and the Elders=doctrinal fathers, then they are true. 2 Corinthians 6:13-15
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…

2John1:9-11Beware of Deceivers
…9Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. 11Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds.…
Believers have no partnership with , Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism , or any other religion outside of that which Christ established. There is NO "UNITY PRAYER" moment for us with any other faith. Scripture is clear.
And the Lord does not care about so called "good Intentions" there is NO peace if it is not Built upon Christ. It will always fall short, mans will, is NOT God's, for God's ways are NOT mans, and man does not see as God sees. Mans wisdom, is the earthly, devilish kind, and could not even touch God's foolishness , if it is possible for God to be.
John 14:6-7
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Christianity is one, there is one doctrine , its foundation has been laid. All teachings must ONLY expound upon in loyalty to Christ, not man. And from my "Mother of God" to me also as mother, this for all the lurkers, she says: " DO WHATEVER HE SAYS". You know who you are, and Christ knows you for what you are. It is right to fear the toppling of your thrones. (AND SHE BROUGHT FORTH THE MALE CHILD WHO WAS CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND HIS THRONE), WAS means He already has been. Now this is in the soul. It is done with His mother, MARY. Be not fooled by men holding Rosaries, or say they pray the "Rule of Theotokos, who appear to be leading in prayer, seek to hear it uttered from their mouths. For looks are deceiving and these men, say they "CONFESS" and promote that you should confess, but they actually do not. They seek only to grow rich and powerful and are drunk on the blood of martyrs and saints.
Matthew 23:23-25Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
…23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…
Listen and watch!
If a Shepherd abides then he is in Christ.

when you say the doctrinal Fathers, you mean the saints through the generations, right? like Sts John Chrysostom, Maximos the confessor, John of Damascus, Mark of Ephesus, etc.

icxn · Jan 31, 2018

[Thinking out loud]

Quote:
A Jackdaw chanced to fly over the garden of the King's palace. There he saw with much wonder and envy a flock of royal Peacocks in all the glory of their splendid plumage.

Now the black Jackdaw was not a very handsome bird, nor very refined in manner. Yet he imagined that all he needed to make himself fit for the society of the Peacocks was a dress like theirs. So he picked up some castoff feathers of the Peacocks and stuck them among his own black plumes.

Dressed in his borrowed finery he strutted loftily among the birds of his own kind. Then he flew down into the garden among the Peacocks. But they soon saw who he was... - Aesop fables

[/Thinking out loud]

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