Rule Of Law Ends In Boston Archdiocese

Susan

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52520-2002Dec13.html

What do you think?

Should Law have stayed, or was the resignation decision right?

Was he forced out as a scapegoat for the scandal or did he leave of his own will?

I would like to see what everyone thinks about this. I'm not intending to troll, and I ask the mods to keep an eye on this thread because I want no hateful material posted or hateful words exchanged. :)

 
 

Evangelion

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Considering the fact that Law was personally responsible for his own diocese, it's impossible to see him as a scapegoat. He abused his position, failed to perform his responsibilities, and tried to hide this entire scandal right from the start.

He should have resigned immediately after the story broke. Instead, he chose to hang on, in a desperate attempt to reatain his position. Even now, he is still a cardinal! (Incredible!) :mad:

The Catholic Church has been excessively negligent. She should have sacked him when it became obvious that he wasn't going to resign.

He has corrupted the dignity of his position, and destroyed the credibility of his Church - and she has aided and abetted him, every step of the way. :cool:
 
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Gerry

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As a non Catholic, I have some mixed feelings about Cardinal Law. I think his actions were wrong and unwise, and I think it should have been handled in a totally different way.

I believe that if when these situations arose, he should have dealt with each case, individually and made these sick Priests an offer they could not refuse; that is to say a way OUT of the Priesthood.

Nevertheless, I do not believe the Cardinal to be a "bad man". I think his heart is good and his intent was clearly to protect the Church he loves at ALL costs. At least that is an admirable and praise worthy trait even if his zeal did lead him down a wrong path.

I am not Catholic and I do not endorse Catholic doctrine, but as a Christian, I know this man is in pain and I pray for him. I am sorry so much trouble has befallen him.
 
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Evangelion

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He brought trouble upon himself, and compounded his folly when he tried to conceal his mismanagement of the diocese.

Sure, he's in pain. He's been caught fleecing the flock. Of course that's going to sting.

Meanwhile, there's a few hundred Catholics who want to know why Cardinal Law took no action against their abusers... :cool:
 
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Susan

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Cool it, everyone :cool: I don't want a flamewar.
 
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Wolseley

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Considering the fact that Law was personally responsible for his own diocese, it's impossible to see him as a scapegoat. He abused his position, failed to perform his responsibilities, and tried to hide this entire scandal right from the start.
I agree that Law made some very stupid moves; he acted on very bad advice, and did some very unwise things.
He should have resigned immediately after the story broke. Instead, he chose to hang on, in a desperate attempt to reatain his position. Even now, he is still a cardinal! (Incredible!)
The first thing to remember is that a Catholic prelate cannot just "resign". He cannot leave his position without the express permission of the Roman Pontiff. In other words, he can't resign unless the Pope says he can resign. The second thing to remember is that Law tried to resign last April, but the Pope requested that he go back to Boston and try to straighten out some of the mess he caused.
The Catholic Church has been excessively negligent. She should have sacked him when it became obvious that he wasn't going to resign.
I submit that the Holy See moves at its own pace and has its own reasons, which many times do not coincide with the wishes or demands of the populace, and especially those of the media.
He has corrupted the dignity of his position
No argument there.
and destroyed the credibility of his Church
Not even close. If anything, he has destroyed his own credibility; and he has ironically helped to bring to light the major festering boil in the American Church, which is that of weak and unorthodox bishops who have failed to remain faithful to the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Faith, with the result that we have suffered under "Catholicism Lite" for the last 35 years---and the sex scandal is only one facet of that problem. IMHO, the scandal has done much to lance the boil, and things are likely to change for the better in the coming few decades.

I might also mention that if the Catholic Church can survive Nero, Diocletian, Arianism, Gnosticism, the barbarian invasions, 500 years of Dark Ages, feudalism, Albigensianism, the Reformation, the French Revolution, the Enlightenment, humanism, Darwin, Marx, Freud, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao-tse-Tung, then Bernard Law is rather small potatoes indeed; I rather suspect that the Church---and her credibility---will survive him just fine.

"The gates of hell shall not prevail", and all that sort of thing, you know.
and she has aided and abetted him, every step of the way.
The Church is in the business of forgiveness and rehabilitation instead of judgement and condemnation; and I suspect that this is what the Holy See was trying to do with Cardinal Law.
 
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Evangelion

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Wolseley -

I agree that Law made some very stupid moves; he acted on very bad advice, and did some very unwise things.

How much evidence does it take for you to change "Law made some very stupid moves... acted on very bad advice... did some very unwise things" to "Law is guilty of criminal negligence and attempting to pervert the course of justice"?

I mean, it's just so incredibly obvious.

The first thing to remember is that a Catholic prelate cannot just "resign". He cannot leave his position without the express permission of the Roman Pontiff. In other words, he can't resign unless the Pope says he can resign. The second thing to remember is that Law tried to resign last April, but the Pope requested that he go back to Boston and try to straighten out some of the mess he caused.

Well, this raises two questions:
  • Why didn't the Pontiff feel that it was necessary for Law to resign last year? How much did he actually know about the situation?
  • Why didn't Law "straighten out some of the mess he caused" in the first place?
The entire situation is completely mind-boggling. It reminds me of the Albino affair.

I submit that the Holy See moves at its own pace and has its own reasons, which many times do not coincide with the wishes or demands of the populace, and especially those of the media.

I submit that the Holy See does not move at the pace demanded by (a) Biblical principles, (b) Christ's own teachings, and (c) common decency. If she believes that she has some kind of God-given privilege which vindicates her decision to drag it out for as long as possible, then the onus is on her to prove it.

quote:
He has corrupted the dignity of his position

No argument there.

Fine.

quote:
and destroyed the credibility of his Church

Not even close.

Oh, I'll grant you that the credibility of the undying faithful is unlikely to be eroded by any act of omission or comission by the Church. But that's not really the point, is it? The point is that it becomes increasingly difficult to see the Church as a credible moral figure, when so much of her history (yes, even her modern history) is rife with crime, theological machinations, and political intrigue.

With these factors in mind, the alleged infalibility of the Pope (which has been - if I rember correctly - so rarely exercised as to be effectively non-existent), becomes something of a theological redundancy.

If anything, he has destroyed his own credibility; and he has ironically helped to bring to light the major festering boil in the American Church, which is that of weak and unorthodox bishops who have failed to remain faithful to the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Faith, with the result that we have suffered under "Catholicism Lite" for the last 35 years---and the sex scandal is only one facet of that problem. IMHO, the scandal has done much to lance the boil, and things are likely to change for the better in the coming few decades.

I'll agree with all of this quite happily. No church is immune to the sinful, corruptible nature of man - which is precisely why no church is in a position to set herself up as the "Mother and Teacher", complete with an alleged representative of God on Earth.

I might also mention that if the Catholic Church can survive Nero, Diocletian, Arianism, Gnosticism, the barbarian invasions, 500 years of Dark Ages, feudalism, Albigensianism, the Reformation, the French Revolution, the Enlightenment, humanism, Darwin, Marx, Freud, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao-tse-Tung, then Bernard Law is rather small potatoes indeed; I rather suspect that the Church---and her credibility---will survive him just fine.

Three points:
  • I see no evidence that your church even existed before the 900s.
  • History records that the people who survived the earliest persecutions were just everyday Christians, rather than the impenetrable phalanx of theological bureaucrats upon whom your Church has come to rely.
  • Countless other groups (much smaller than your own) have survived just as much persecution as that to which you refer (above.) Most of them were on the receiving end of the unGodly acts committed in the name of Christianity by Catholics and Reformed Protestants alike. So if you're going to make an argument for legitimacy on the basis of sheer "survival", you'll also have to include the Jews and the Unitarian Anabaptist tradition.
On the history of the Papacy and the gradual evolution of the Church, see the following, from an Australian ex-Jesuit priest who later became a history professor:

  • On the point – the role of the Papacy in the conversion of Europe – we need some background for, in the early Church prior to Toleration in AD 313, there had been no suggestion that the Bishop of Rome exercised any significant influence, much less authority, outside his own domain. However, when Constantine’s Edict of Toleration (AD 313) granted freedom of belief and worship to Christians, a completely new situation developed which necessitated a radical change in Church policy. For, from that time on, the emperors were Christians; and increasingly, they tended to rule the Church as a kind of Department of State, as if they – rather than thee bishops – were the successors of St Peter and the Apostles.

    [..]

    Gradually, over the next century or so, as the tension increased between the Caesar or Emperor in the East and the Pope or Bishop of Rome in the West, “the Successors of Peter” became ever more adamant in their insistence that they, rather than the eastern emperors, should be the arbiters of all Church affairs. So, in the mid 5th Century, we find Pope Leo I (440-461) calling himself “the Vicar of Peter” – that is, the one who acts in the place of Peter. Not the “Vicar of Christ” – the modern title which gained ascendancy only from the 11th Century onwards – but “the Vicar of Peter” and “the heir to his administration.”

    [...]

    By the time of the Lombard campaigns in the mid 700’s, another political factor was adding further prestige to the Papacy – in spiritual rather than political terms. For, with the rapid expansion of Islam, all through the Middle East and right across North Africa in the century following Mohammed’s death in 634, all the other “Apostolic Sees” (Jerusalem, Antioch and Ephesus), which had originally evangelized by one or other of the apostles, were now in Islamic hands; and this meant that the only surviving Apostolic See in Christendom was Rome. Hence, Rome’s present claim to the title, “The Apostolic See.”

    Almost by chance, therefore, from the late 700’s, not only did the popes claim spiritual authority over the whole of Christendom as “Successors of Peter” and bishop of the one and only surviving “Apostolic See”, but they were recognized as the political overlords of about one-fifth of Italy also – this new status of the Papacy being confirmed in the papal coronation of Charlemagne in the year 800.

    […]

    One of the clearest indications of the new role of the Papacy can be seen in the fact that, before the early 1100’s, not a single General or “Ecumenical” Council of the Church had been summoned by a pope or even held in the capital West: from the early 12th Century onwards, however, there would be frequent Councils; all would be held in the West; and all would be summoned and directed by the pope.

    R. W. Southern supplies the details in Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages, as follows: “Between the seventh century and the early twelfth the Councils are few and, from a western point of view, insignificant. They are all held in Byzantine territory (one at Nicaea, in 787, and two in Constantinople, in 680 and 869), and there were no representatives from the West except the papal legates, who played a minor role in the proceedings. The whole picture therefore is one of western inertia and papal impotence.


    Guthridge, Ian (1999), The Rise and Decline of the Christian Empire, pp. 77-80, 126.
We can discuss this if you're interested. I'm not simply here to bash the Catholic Church (believe it or not.)

"The gates of hell shall not prevail", and all that sort of thing, you know.

Sure.

The Church is in the business of forgiveness and rehabilitation instead of judgement and condemnation; and I suspect that this is what the Holy See was trying to do with Cardinal Law.

But why do we see so little in the way of punishment and adherence to legal procedures?

What concerns me is the Church's apparent lack of regard for the basic Christian principle of personal responsibility. I mean, just exactly how does one go about "rehabilitating" a corrupt, 71-year old bureaucrat? At what point can we expect the Church to mete out a little of that good old-fashioned retribution for which she is historically known? Recalling the fact that she certainly didn't waste any time in burning the heretics of the "bad old days", I would venture to suggest that she can also discipline the members of her own hierarchy, instead of throwing out a constant stream of excuses for their unChristlike behaviour.

Quod erat demonstrandum. :cool:
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Evangelion

How much evidence does it take for you to change "Law made some very stupid moves... acted on very bad advice... did some very unwise things" to "Law is guilty of criminal negligence and attempting to pervert the course of justice"?

I mean, it's just so incredibly obvious.


I think that gets us away from God's law to Man's law, and I'm not sure that's what Wols was talking about. The question of whether he has criminal liability is a question for the courts. The question of whether he was a bad person is a question for God.

I think this will be the one time this month I am in full agreement with Gerry. Law is apparently a good Christian, doing his best with a very difficult situation, and he made mistakes. (I'd phrase "made mistakes" a bit more harshly, but I can't think of a good way to do it without being filtered.) I believe he is genuinely sorry for the harm he's done, and that the harm was mostly or entirely done in ignorance. I hope they are able to better deal with the situation now, but I recognize the sheer impossibility of the initial task.
 
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Wolseley

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I think seebs pretty much covered it. Crime and sin are handled differently; a crime is certainly a sin, but crime is a civil matter; sin is the province of the Church. Even back in the days when people were being burned at the stake, the Church didn't do the foul deed---the secular authorities did.
I submit that the Holy See does not move at the pace demanded by (a) Biblical principles, (b) Christ's own teachings, and (c) common decency.
Jack Chick will undoubtedly agree with you.
But that's not really the point, is it? The point is that it becomes increasingly difficult to see the Church as a credible moral figure, when so much of her history (yes, even her modern history) is rife with crime, theological machinations, and political intrigue.
Jack would agree with this, too. (You do know that the Vatican was behind the assassinations of both Lincoln and Kennedy, and runs virtual houses of ill repute disguised as convents, don't you? Jack's buddy Alberto Rivera says so....and he's depending on equally reliable information from Charles Chiniquy.) :eek:
With these factors in mind, the alleged infalibility of the Pope (which has been - if I rember correctly - so rarely exercised as to be effectively non-existent), becomes something of a theological redundancy.
Are we talking infallibility or impeccability?
I see no evidence that your church even existed before the 900s.
That's a new one. Most people say either 100 AD or 350 AD, but I've not heard of the 900's before. It's still inaccurate IMHO, but it's a definite new one. :)
Countless other groups (much smaller than your own) have survived just as much persecution as that to which you refer (above.) Most of them were on the receiving end of the unGodly acts committed in the name of Christianity by Catholics and Reformed Protestants alike. So if you're going to make an argument for legitimacy on the basis of sheer "survival", you'll also have to include the Jews and the Unitarian Anabaptist tradition.
The difference is in the orthodoxy of the doctrine.
On the history of the Papacy and the gradual evolution of the Church, see the following, from an Australian ex-Jesuit priest who later became a history professor
And the fact that he is an EX-Jesuit tells the entire tale.
I'm not simply here to bash the Catholic Church (believe it or not.)
That might be possible. Ex-Jesuits, however, are another matter entirely. ;)
 
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isshinwhat

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On the point – the role of the Papacy in the conversion of Europe – we need some background for, in the early Church prior to Toleration in AD 313, there had been no suggestion that the Bishop of Rome exercised any significant influence, much less authority, outside his own domain.

Hmmm....

" '...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae(Primacy text),4(A.D. 251),in NE,228-229

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416

But back on topic...

Not even close. If anything, he has destroyed his own credibility; and he has ironically helped to bring to light the major festering boil in the American Church, which is that of weak and unorthodox bishops who have failed to remain faithful to the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Faith, with the result that we have suffered under "Catholicism Lite" for the last 35 years---and the sex scandal is only one facet of that problem. IMHO, the scandal has done much to lance the boil, and things are likely to change for the better in the coming few decades.

Amen, Wols... And to Gerry, too. I hate the course of action Cardinal Law took, but I pray for him and his unenviable position, though it is much his fault he is where he is now. Still, it is our duty to pray for him and all of those involved in these terrible events.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Evangelion

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Wolseley -

I think seebs pretty much covered it. Crime and sin are handled differently; a crime is certainly a sin, but crime is a civil matter; sin is the province of the Church.

That is, in fact, my point. The Church has a responsibility to act upon the sin and the crime.

Even back in the days when people were being burned at the stake, the Church didn't do the foul deed---the secular authorities did.

Well, considering the fact that there was no "secular authority" in those days, I have to question the legitimacy of this defence. Effectively, the Church was the state. She did have enormous power. She could influence kings and other dignitaries. State authorties were religious themselves, and their decisions were most frequently made upon the basis of their religious beliefs!

quote:
I submit that the Holy See does not move at the pace demanded by (a) Biblical principles, (b) Christ's own teachings, and (c) common decency.

Jack Chick will undoubtedly agree with you.

It's irrelevant to me whether he does or he doesn't. We're not talking about Jack Chick, so guilt by association means nothing.

quote:
But that's not really the point, is it? The point is that it becomes increasingly difficult to see the Church as a credible moral figure, when so much of her history (yes, even her modern history) is rife with crime, theological machinations, and political intrigue.

Jack would agree with this, too.

See above. My point still stands.

(You do know that the Vatican was behind the assassinations of both Lincoln and Kennedy, and runs virtual houses of ill repute disguised as convents, don't you? Jack's buddy Alberto Rivera says so....and he's depending on equally reliable information from Charles Chiniquy.)

Well, since I don't believe any of this, I fail to see how it's even vaguely relevant to the topic at hand.

quote:
With these factors in mind, the alleged infalibility of the Pope (which has been - if I rember correctly - so rarely exercised as to be effectively non-existent), becomes something of a theological redundancy.

Are we talking infallibility or impeccability?

Infallibility. I know perfectly well that the Church does not claim Papal impeccability - I'm simply asking why (if the Pope has the power to make infallible ex cathedra statements on faith and morals) did he not do so with regard to the situation in Boston? And for that matter, why is it that this power has been so rarely invoked during the history of the Church?

I am still trying to get a clear statement from Catholics, identifying each and every infallible pronouncement over the last 1600 years or so. To date, the list remains at a less-than-impressive handful. (Two or three, IIRC.)

quote:
I see no evidence that your church even existed before the 900s.

That's a new one. Most people say either 100 AD or 350 AD

"Most people" have not studied the history.

but I've not heard of the 900's before. It's still inaccurate IMHO, but it's a definite new one.

We live and learn. :)

quote:
Countless other groups (much smaller than your own) have survived just as much persecution as that to which you refer (above.) Most of them were on the receiving end of the unGodly acts committed in the name of Christianity by Catholics and Reformed Protestants alike. So if you're going to make an argument for legitimacy on the basis of sheer "survival", you'll also have to include the Jews and the Unitarian Anabaptist tradition.

The difference is in the orthodoxy of the doctrine.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one! :D

quote:
On the history of the Papacy and the gradual evolution of the Church, see the following, from an Australian ex-Jesuit priest who later became a history professor

And the fact that he is an EX-Jesuit tells the entire tale.

Oh, really? And what "tale" would that be, pray tell? Why should this make any difference whatsoever? Are you alleging some kind of conspiracy here? Can you refute the historical evidence which Guthrie has laid out in his book?

quote:
I'm not simply here to bash the Catholic Church (believe it or not.)

That might be possible. Ex-Jesuits, however, are another matter entirely.

Why? Why are they "another matter entirely"? If you think he's only looking to flame the Church, you'll have to prove it by reading his book and pointing out the evidence which vindicates your claim. Unfounded assertions won't get you far.

Meanwhile, the history is before you - and it will continue to stand as historical fact until you prove it false. :cool:
 
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