Romans 9

[janxharris]

Judas fulfilled the role assigned to him by the scriptures.
Just because Judas was there does not imply what your trying to imply.

You have not addressed my point: Judas was in the group that would be defined by you (I assume) as elect. He, in contrast to those that were reprobates, was given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven.

The supposed doctrine of election and reprobation does not fit Matthew 13 or John 12. Where does it fit?

“I do not speak concerning all of you" He says this all the way back in John 13.
So you can not include Judas at all except for that the scriptures were required that Judas play that role.

I do not understand your point.

 

[janxharris]

Oh, you think the kingdom is heaven. Well, that explains your error. And you also think there will weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven. Oh, boy.

2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

 

[janxharris]

Exactly! Salvation was offered to all sorts of people as opposed to Jews only. It is not offered to every individual. If that were the case, then God could not allow for anyone to die without ever hearing it. But we know that many die every day without ever being offered Christ.

You are beginning to speak the bible's (and Calvinism's) language.

You have misunderstood me. I was making an argument against the 'all sorts of people' interpretation.

That you think that it is the case that if someone does not hear the gospel then they are without the offer of salvation is astonishing.

Romans 2:14,15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

We also know from Matthew 11:21-24 that contingent events are considered:

21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.e For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

 

[janxharris]

You've confused me a bit on what you're driving at. Why do you think he was there, and then thrown out?

He was invited but not chosen.

 

[Hammster]

2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

And? (I have that in my bible, too.)

 

[Hammster]

He was invited but not chosen.

Why was he there, though?

 

[bling]

I will try to respond soon...

Any responce to post 47?

 

[janxharris]

And? (I have that in my bible, too.)

Oh, you think the kingdom is heaven. Well, that explains your error.

2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

 

[Jack Terrence]

2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

The kingdom of heaven is not heaven. See the parable of the wheat and the tares. Do you believe that tares are in heaven?

 

[sdowney717]

You have not addressed my point: Judas was in the group that would be defined by you (I assume) as elect. He, in contrast to those that were reprobates, was given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven.

When Jesus said, I do not speak of all of you, this means Judas was excluded.
Not included in knowing the secrets of the kingdom. Judas would have sat there and listened but it was in one ear and out the other. And consider this, Jesus had to breathe on them and open their minds to understand the scriptures. This He did after the betrayal when Judas had departed.

Judas was never saved. Judas was never destined for anything except for exactly what Judas did. Kinda sad in a way to think that, but this was for the word of God to be fulfilled.

Luke 24

The Scriptures Opened

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

See what I am saying? The opening of their minds by Him to understand happens after the resurrection. So yes it was given to them to understand, but not all, Judas being excluded. Which is why Jesus said, I do not speak of all of you.

 

[janxharris]

Any responce to post 47?

Sorry, not yet. Romans 9 is a difficult passage. It has been called (or at least vv. 14-29) a pastor's graveyard...

Probably by tomorrow.

 

[janxharris]

The kingdom of heaven is not heaven. See the parable of the wheat and the tares. Do you believe that tares are in heaven?

The tares are burnt. It's a parable.

 

[janxharris]

When Jesus said, I do not speak of all of you, this means Judas was excluded.
Not included in knowing the secrets of the kingdom. Judas would have sat there and listened but it was in one ear and out the other. And consider this, Jesus had to breathe on them and open their minds to understand the scriptures. This He did after the betrayal when Judas had departed.

Fine, but you are, in effect, admitting that Matthew 13 does not teach election/ reprobation. Judas, in your view, is a reprobate but he is in the wrong group.

Judas was never saved. Judas was never destined for anything except for exactly what Judas did.

Judas chose through his own free will to betray Jesus. This was foreknown. If he was predestined to do it, irrespective of foreknowledge, then God is most certainly not love, as it says in 1 John 4:8.

Kinda sad in a way to think that, but this was for the word of God to be fulfilled.

Sad? To indict God with such foreordination is incomprehensible.

Luke 24


See what I am saying? The opening of their minds by Him to understand happens after the resurrection. So yes it was given to them to understand, but not all, Judas being excluded. Which is why Jesus said, I do not speak of all of you.

Jesus opened the minds of two of the disciples on the road to Emmaus. I'm not sure that proves your point.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The tares are burnt. It's a parable.

That's not what it says. It says that the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field, and while he slept an enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.

Then it says that both the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest at the end of the age. It is then that the tares are burned. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is that period of time from Christ's first coming until the end of the age. That's not heaven sir!

Why do you resist truth?

 

[janxharris]

That's not what it says. It says that the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field, and while he slept an enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.

Then it says that both the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest at the end of the age. It is then that the tares are burned. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is that period of time from Christ's first coming until the end of the age. That's not heaven sir!

Why do you resist truth?

Okay, you might be right - but I don't think you can prove as much from this parable.

So, there is a kingdom of heaven and heaven. Two heavens.

Is there a third?

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus opened the minds of two of the disciples on the road to Emmaus. I'm not sure that proves your point.

Luke 24:44 was all the disciples together.

read it as is says please! Emmaus, then afterwards is shown in v36

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The Disciples’ Eyes Opened

28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.

30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” 33 So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.[f] 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.[g] 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

The Scriptures Opened

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

 

[janxharris]

Luke 24:44 was all the disciples together.

read it as is says please! Emmaus, then afterwards is shown in v36

Jesus opened their minds to comprehend the scriptures. And?

 

[janxharris]

Luke 24:44 was all the disciples together.

read it as is says please! Emmaus, then afterwards is shown in v36

Are you still asserting that Matthew 13 proves election/reprobation?

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus opened their minds to comprehend the scriptures. And?

I was trying to convey the idea that Judas was excluded. And you seem to have a short term memory?

 

[janxharris]

I was trying to convey the idea that Judas was excluded. And you seem to have a short term memory?

I do not understand your point or your conclusion. Sorry.