Romans 9 and Salvation

[bling]

What is the difference between salvation from faith and faith?

I never heard this before

What is the difference between salvation from faith and faith?

I never heard this before

There is “salvation through works”, but that is not possible for man. The “Salvation through Faith” is describing the only “salvation” we can obtain. Some Jews were trying to obtain a salvation through works which Paul points out in Eph. 2:9 and other places; is not possible. No one would consider “working to obtain faith”, since faith is like the opposite of “works” here on earth. Everyone wants to be “happy” and will work hard to try and be “happy”, but ultimately their reliance on self (trusting self) will result in being unhappy. In their unhappy state they could give up on self and turn their trust (faith) toward the benevolent Creator.

Thus “Faith” is not something you have to work to get or even could work to obtain, even though some thought they could work to obtain salvation.

“Faith” is a God given gift to mature human that all mature adults have, but not everyone chooses to place their faith in God/Christ. We often have some trust of self even if that trust could be to do the wrong thing on occasion.

The word “faith” in Eph. 2:8 is there to describe the salvation Paul is talking about.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

There is “salvation through works”, but that is not possible for man. The “Salvation through Faith” is describing the only “salvation” we can obtain. Some Jews were trying to obtain a salvation through works which Paul points out in Eph. 2:9 and other places; is not possible. No one would consider “working to obtain faith”, since faith is like the opposite of “works” here on earth. Everyone wants to be “happy” and will work hard to try and be “happy”, but ultimately their reliance on self (trusting self) will result in being unhappy. In their unhappy state they could give up on self and turn their trust (faith) toward the benevolent Creator.

Thus “Faith” is not something you have to work to get or even could work to obtain, even though some thought they could work to obtain salvation.

“Faith” is a God given gift to mature human that all mature adults have, but not everyone chooses to place their faith in God/Christ. We often have some trust of self even if that trust could be to do the wrong thing on occasion.

The word “faith” in Eph. 2:8 is there to describe the salvation Paul is talking about.

There is “salvation through works”, but that is not possible for man. The “Salvation through Faith” is describing the only “salvation” we can obtain. Some Jews were trying to obtain a salvation through works which Paul points out in Eph. 2:9 and other places; is not possible. No one would consider “working to obtain faith”, since faith is like the opposite of “works” here on earth. Everyone wants to be “happy” and will work hard to try and be “happy”, but ultimately their reliance on self (trusting self) will result in being unhappy. In their unhappy state they could give up on self and turn their trust (faith) toward the benevolent Creator.

Thus “Faith” is not something you have to work to get or even could work to obtain, even though some thought they could work to obtain salvation.

“Faith” is a God given gift to mature human that all mature adults have, but not everyone chooses to place their faith in God/Christ. We often have some trust of self even if that trust could be to do the wrong thing on occasion.

The word “faith” in Eph. 2:8 is there to describe the salvation Paul is talking about.

You say, faith is a God given gift that every mature adult has.

I disagree, because whose who have faith, will put their trust in Christ, and be saved.

And if Ephesians 2:8 is talking about saving faith like you just mentioned, then that too is a gift from God.

 

[bling]

You say, faith is a God given gift that every mature adult has.

I disagree, because whose who have faith, will put their trust in Christ, and be saved.
.

Believe in the Greek is a verb and comes from the root word for “faith” which is feminine noun, so they convey the same meaning yet James 2: 19 says: You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The demons have a “faith” but it is not a saving faith.

You are assuming everyone who has “faith” will put their trust in Christ, so why are we asked to believe or put our trust in God since it is automatic if we are the lucky ones with “faith”?

Those that willing place their trust in God/Christ, will be saved.

And if Ephesians 2:8 is talking about saving faith like you just mentioned, then that too is a gift from God.

“Faith” in general is a gift mature adults have over the animal kingdom to turn that faith (trust) toward Christ will save the person, but few do that.

The issue still comes back to your use of Eph. 2: 8 as proof text to say that this scripture proofs: “saving faith” or faith in Christ is a gift directly from God to a few mature adults, when the verse textually and grammatically says only the “salvation” by faith is the gift.

Read what Biblical Greek scholars say (you can also look it up yourself) the “gift” refers to some previous neuter word or phrase and “faith” is feminine so it could not be referring to “faith”.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(2 Peter 1:10): "Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election."

1Co 4:4 am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

1Co 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

1Co 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Phl 2:12 ¶Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

 

[ToBeLoved]

You say, faith is a God given gift that every mature adult has.

I disagree, because whose who have faith, will put their trust in Christ, and be saved.

And if Ephesians 2:8 is talking about saving faith like you just mentioned, then that too is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8

You are saved by GRACE through faith.

What is so hard to understand? I think 'by' is a key word here.

Is and can grace be earned?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The demons have a “faith” but it is not a saving faith.

What the demons have is not faith. They KNOW God exists. That is not faith.

How is faith defined in the Bible?

 

[expos4ever]

the NT is first and foremost about salvation. That cannot be denied because none of us can even hope to please God without the indwelling Holy Spirit and becoming a Child of God. So nothing wrong with that.

This argument seems pretty circular. I politely suggest that our concern for our own eternal destiny - clearly an important concern - colours our interpretation of New Testament texts.

Consider the term "gospel". Most Christians believe this word denotes the good news that if we believe in Jesus, our sins are forgiven and we inherit eternal life.

This is not how Paul uses the term. While I do not have the time to make the case now, Paul uses "gospel" to denote announcement that Jesus is the world's true lord.

 

[bsd058]

I feel like a mod needs to clean this thread up since most of the thread's posts have nothing to do with the exegesis of Romans 9.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You say, faith is a God given gift that every mature adult has.

I disagree, because whose who have faith, will put their trust in Christ, and be saved.

And if Ephesians 2:8 is talking about saving faith like you just mentioned, then that too is a gift from God.

God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This argument seems pretty circular. I politely suggest that our concern for our own eternal destiny - clearly an important concern - colours our interpretation of New Testament texts.
Consider the term "gospel". Most Christians believe this word denotes the good news that if we believe in Jesus, our sins are forgiven and we inherit eternal life.

This is not how Paul uses the term. While I do not have the time to make the case now, Paul uses "gospel" to denote announcement that Jesus is the world's true lord.

That is pretty much how Paul uses the word gospel. That is the gist of it. Christ, God incarnate as fully God and fully man, perfectly kept that law to be our sin sacrifice.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:4

They cannot see, understand or hear the Word. So how can they believe?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:4

They cannot see, understand or hear the Word. So how can they believe?

Having faith is not accepting the things of the Spirit. Faith is the hope of things hoped for. Faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord. That is not the spiritual things of the Spirit.

So intertwining the gospel, which is somewhat simple, with the things of the Spirit that are taught AFTER we HAVE the INDWELLING Holy Spirit, is just wrong on your part. That is not rightly dividing God's Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
They cannot see, understand or hear the Word. So how can they believe?

This is the false premise you have setup. God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the gospel and the Word of God. So you are way off here.

Now you are going against Biblical teaching.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is the false premise you have setup. God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the gospel and the Word of God. So you are way off here.

Now you are going against Biblical teaching.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is the false premise you have setup. God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the gospel and the Word of God. So you are way off here.

Now you are going against Biblical teaching.

You think the unregenerate non believer, can see and understand the things of God, I believe that they cannot apart from God opening their eyes and ears.

 

[ToBeLoved]

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

That does not change that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. That has nothing to do with why Christ spoke in parables.

Tie the two ideas together so I can see that they are the same?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You think the unregenerate non believer, can see and understand the things of God, I believe that they cannot apart from God opening their eyes and ears.

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

The unregenerate believer can hear the gospel and Good News of Christ and come to Christ in faith. That is what faith is, the hope of things hoped for.

Faith is always the beginning. I don't understand why you are throwing in understanding the things of the Spirit in with faith. One happens before we are saved, the other happens after.

Seems like you just cannot deal with what faith is on it's own and have to throw in a bunch of other things. We are talking about faith and faith comes by hearing the gospel/Good News.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

The unregenerate believer can hear the gospel and Good News of Christ and come to Christ in faith. That is what faith is, the hope of things hoped for.

Faith is always the beginning. I don't understand why you are throwing in understanding the things of the Spirit in with faith. One happens before we are saved, the other happens after.

Seems like you just cannot deal with what faith is on it's own and have to throw in a bunch of other things. We are talking about faith and faith comes by hearing the gospel/Good News.

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14

To me the aforementioned is prior to salvation, because it says the person without the Spirit. If they were believers, they would have the Spirit, would they not?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

That does not change that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. That has nothing to do with why Christ spoke in parables.

Tie the two ideas together so I can see that they are the same?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. John 6:44

How can they hear unless they were drawn?

 

[bling]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. John 6:44

How can they hear unless they were drawn?

The invitation goes out to everyone and those that were drawn by that invitation come, so all that come were drawn. Those that refuse the invitation did not want to hear it, but did physically hear it.