Romans 9 and Salvation

[GusKlenke]

A thought occured to me this morning during my Bible study. I do not make any claims to it being inspired, and certainly not trying to assert that it is theologically correct. I'm actually putting out here to get other's opinions. I made a copious note in my Bible and will gladly delete it if I realize I am way off base. I am just copying and pasting it without editing below.

Note on Romans 9: I believe this chapter reveals a great and mysterious truth that I have never heard exposited. Paul's first point is that God chooses those whom he calls, and that he does this to suit his own purposes. It has NOTHING to do with our behavior or inherent goodness. Peter's statement (2 Peter 3:19) that God desires that none should perish as well as Jesus' own words in John 3:16 telling us that God loves mankind so much that salvation is for any that believe, seems to indicate that God's #1 priority is man's salvation. That being the case, this chapter's statement that God calls those whom he will to fulfill his purposes then seems to imply that his sovereign choice of souls to save is predicated on the influence these lives have on history such that, in the end, the greatest number of people will be saved.

If this is true, then two conclusions can be asserted:
1. Souls are saved in two possible ways. God calls people (as the Calvinist teaches) after which those people take God's call to others who then respond to the gospel of grace by their own assent (as the Arminian teaches).
2. We live in the best of all possible worlds, i.e. in spite of all he tragedy and horrific behaviors man displays, the result of history is that the maximum number of people end up to in heaven.

 

[Ken Rank]

A thought occured to me this morning during my Bible study. I do not make any claims to it being inspired, and certainly not trying to assert that it is theologically correct. I'm actually putting out here to get other's opinions. I made a copious note in my Bible and will gladly delete it if I realize I am way off base. I am just copying and pasting it without editing below.

Note on Romans 9: I believe this chapter reveals a great and mysterious truth that I have never heard exposited. Paul's first point is that God chooses those whom he calls, and that he does this to suit his own purposes. It has NOTHING to do with our behavior or inherent goodness. Peter's statement (2 Peter 3:19) that God desires that none should perish as well as Jesus' own words in John 3:16 telling us that God loves mankind so much that salvation is for any that believe, seems to indicate that God's #1 priority is man's salvation. That being the case, this chapter's statement that God calls those whom he will to fulfill his purposes then seems to imply that his sovereign choice of souls to save is predicated on the influence these lives have on history such that, in the end, the greatest number of people will be saved.

If this is true, then two conclusions can be asserted:
1. Souls are saved in two possible ways. God calls people (as the Calvinist teaches) after which those people take God's call to others who then respond to the gospel of grace by their own assent (as the Arminian teaches).
2. We live in the best of all possible worlds, i.e. in spite of all he tragedy and horrific behaviors man displays, the result of history is that the maximum number of people end up to in heaven.

Regarding Calvinism and Armenianism.... both do clearly exist in the bible. We are predestined in one verse, but then told that we can choose between life and death, blessing and cursing and are to CHOOSE life. So both exist... unfortunately, most seem to choose one or the other (whichever makes the most sense to them) and they pit one verse the other. We don't need to go there, we just need to reconcile why and how both exist. I reconcile it, by the way... by simply understanding that God exists outside of time and all the things created to tell time were created by Him and that He existed before they did. So, time is not relevant to Him and He knew in the beginning who will be with Him in the end. Therefore, from His timeless perspective, we are preordained. But from our finite and very limited position, we don't know what 10 seconds from now holds and have to live by making choices... so, we are have life and death (messiah or the world) before us and we have to choose.

As for the rest of Romans 9... starting in verse 21 you'll find that Paul is quoting from Hosea and Isaiah and the context of those chapters that he quotes are expected to be understood and applied to what he is writing in Romans 9. Read those chapters (Hosea 1, Isaiah 10) and factor that in and see where it takes you.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Regarding Calvinism and Armenianism.... both do clearly exist in the bible. We are predestined in one verse, but then told that we can choose between life and death, blessing and cursing and are to CHOOSE life. So both exist... unfortunately, most seem to choose one or the other (whichever makes the most sense to them) and they pit one verse the other. We don't need to go there, we just need to reconcile why and how both exist. I reconcile it, by the way... by simply understanding that God exists outside of time and all the things created to tell time were created by Him and that He existed before they did. So, time is not relevant to Him and He knew in the beginning who will be with Him in the end. Therefore, from His timeless perspective, we are preordained. But from our finite and very limited position, we don't know what 10 seconds from now holds and have to live by making choices... so, we are have life and death (messiah or the world) before us and we have to choose.

As for the rest of Romans 9... starting in verse 21 you'll find that Paul is quoting from Hosea and Isaiah and the context of those chapters that he quotes are expected to be understood and applied to what he is writing in Romans 9. Read those chapters (Hosea 1, Isaiah 10) and factor that in and see where it takes you.

Blessings.
Ken

Ken,

Just be mindful that the ones who are born of God, are chosen according to the will of God. Salvation is from the Lord.

 

[expos4ever]

I believe Romans 9 has been deeply misunderstood. It appears that the vast majority of Christians see it as expressing some sort of general, universal theological truth about whether people are predestined to salvation or to loss.

Taking the details seriously, and seeing Romans 9 in the context of the whole letter (especially chapters 10 and 11) show that Paul is making a specifically historical argument about God's plan to use Israel in His grand plan of redemption.

It is an explanation of why Israel has rejected her Messiah; it does not express any general truths other than that God has the right to do "whatever He wants". And Paul argues that God wanted / needed to harden the nation of Israel as part of the great plan of redemption.

One cannot, I suggest, use Romans 9 as part of an argument for predestination of individuals in general to a specific eternal fate.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken,

Just be mindful that the ones who are born of God, are chosen according to the will of God. Salvation is from the Lord.

I didn't say otherwise... I said there are verses that have us choosing and verses that have us predestined. Both exist, therefore, we have to reconcile them. God so loved the world that he gave His only son and whoever believes in him shall not perish... we have to believe... salvation is of the Lord but WE STILL HAVE TO BELIEVE. He might have known before the world existed what our choice would be... but we still have to believe.

He didn't create robots to follow Him around like puppy dogs... He created a people who could choose and the idea was those that chose Him do so out of love.

 

[Dave-W]

What about Acts 2:21 and couple that with Romans 10:14?

One cannot take a single passage of scripture and ignore the others that speak to the same topic.

 

[Thursday]

A thought occured to me this morning during my Bible study. I do not make any claims to it being inspired, and certainly not trying to assert that it is theologically correct. I'm actually putting out here to get other's opinions. I made a copious note in my Bible and will gladly delete it if I realize I am way off base. I am just copying and pasting it without editing below.

Note on Romans 9: I believe this chapter reveals a great and mysterious truth that I have never heard exposited. Paul's first point is that God chooses those whom he calls, and that he does this to suit his own purposes. It has NOTHING to do with our behavior or inherent goodness. Peter's statement (2 Peter 3:19) that God desires that none should perish as well as Jesus' own words in John 3:16 telling us that God loves mankind so much that salvation is for any that believe, seems to indicate that God's #1 priority is man's salvation. That being the case, this chapter's statement that God calls those whom he will to fulfill his purposes then seems to imply that his sovereign choice of souls to save is predicated on the influence these lives have on history such that, in the end, the greatest number of people will be saved.

If this is true, then two conclusions can be asserted:
1. Souls are saved in two possible ways. God calls people (as the Calvinist teaches) after which those people take God's call to others who then respond to the gospel of grace by their own assent (as the Arminian teaches).
2. We live in the best of all possible worlds, i.e. in spite of all he tragedy and horrific behaviors man displays, the result of history is that the maximum number of people end up to in heaven.

Romans 9 tells us that God is God and we are not. It doesn't tell us what God wants, only that we have no right to question his decisions.

Other books of the bible, including other epistles written by Paul, tell us that God wants all men to be saved and that our actions impact our eternal destiny.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I didn't say otherwise... I said there are verses that have us choosing and verses that have us predestined. Both exist, therefore, we have to reconcile them. God so loved the world that he gave His only son and whoever believes in him shall not perish... we have to believe... salvation is of the Lord but WE STILL HAVE TO BELIEVE. He might have known before the world existed what our choice would be... but we still have to believe.

He didn't create robots to follow Him around like puppy dogs... He created a people who could choose and the idea was those that chose Him do so out of love.

But is faith not a gift from God? Ephesians 2

So even the faith needed to believe in Him is given my Him.

I appreciate you trying to reconcile scripture, but I see the sovereignty of God in scripture including but not limited to salvation.

Also the "World" is Jews and Gentiles

 

[afishamongmany]

we have to believe... salvation is of the Lord but WE STILL HAVE TO BELIEVE. He might have known before the world existed what our choice would be... but we still have to believe.

Hi Ken - faith is a gift (free and undeserved) --- from God. It's all grace from beginning to end. Is God just in his judgement and condemnation of unbelievers? He is.
Go well
><>

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Romans 9 tells us that God is God and we are not. It doesn't tell us what God wants, only that we have no right to question his decisions.

Other books of the bible, including other epistles written by Paul, tell us that God wants all men to be saved and that our actions impact our eternal destiny.

All men is Jews and Gentiles alike.


Romans 9 is regarding sovereignty of God in salvation.

 

[Ken Rank]

But is faith not a gift from God? Ephesians 2

So even the faith needed to believe in Him is given my Him.

I appreciate you trying to reconcile scripture, but I see the sovereignty of God in scripture including but not limited to salvation.

Also the "World" is Jews and Gentiles

Then don't believe. Scripture says, "if you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved." Are you now saying we don't have to call on his name? Of course we do, and of course His of salvation is free and His doing... but He still has expectations on us. If not... don't profess His name, don't believe, don't get baptized, and see what happens.

 

[Thursday]

All men is Jews and Gentiles alike.


Romans 9 is regarding sovereignty of God in salvation.

Yes, Romans 9 tells us that God can do what he wants.

Other books of the bible tell us what God wants and what he expects from us.

For example:

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Ken - faith is a gift (free and undeserved) --- from God. It's all grace from beginning to end. Is God just in his judgement and condemnation of unbelievers? He is.
Go well
><>

Do you think I don't know this? All I said was, we have to believe and we receive this free gift. Like I told pretty boy, if you don't agree then don't believe, don't profess his name, and don't get baptized and see how this shakes out when you stand before him. Salvation is a gift, period, end of story. But God still expects from us.

 

[Thursday]

Do you think I don't know this? All I said was, we have to believe and we receive this free gift. Like I told pretty boy, if you don't agree then don't believe, don't profess his name, and don't get baptized and see how this shakes out when you stand before him. Salvation is a gift, period, end of story. But God still expects from us.

Do you think you will be saved if you believe but persist in disobeying Jesus without repentance?

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 9 is regarding sovereignty of God in salvation.

Not really. If you read the general context you see that the argument is this:

1. Problem: Why have the significant majority of God's people (Israel) rejected the Messiah?

Answer:

a. God has the right to do what He wants;
b. God has decided to harden the nation of Israel in order that the Gentile world can benefit.

The context is really quite clear: this is Paul's explanation of why Israel was hardened back in his time.

It is a specifically historical argument that addresses this question, not a general treatment of a principle of pre-destination.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Do you think I don't know this? All I said was, we have to believe and we receive this free gift. Like I told pretty boy, if you don't agree then don't believe, don't profess his name, and don't get baptized and see how this shakes out when you stand before him. Salvation is a gift, period, end of story. But God still expects from us.

God expects obedience/fruit/conformity to the image of Christ, which is only available if the Holy Spirit is inside the believer.

Salvation is from the Lord, even the faith is a gift from him.

If you don't produce the aforementioned, you never belonged to Him.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Do you think you will be saved if you believe but persist in disobeying Jesus without repentance?

A believer with the Holy Spirit, will produce obedience/fruit/conformity to the image of Christ, because I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 12:28

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Then don't believe. Scripture says, "if you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved." Are you now saying we don't have to call on his name? Of course we do, and of course His of salvation is free and His doing... but He still has expectations on us. If not... don't profess His name, don't believe, don't get baptized, and see what happens.

You can saved through faith in Christ.

The Lord gives faith to the believer and that believer will in turn repent and believe and get the Holy Spirit and be saved.

No one is saying there is another way, because Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and the only way for salvation.

If none of those things happen, you don't belong to him and don't have the Holy Spirit of God, very simple.

 

[afishamongmany]

If this is true, then two conclusions can be asserted:
1. Souls are saved in two possible ways. God calls people (as the Calvinist teaches) after which those people take God's call to others who then respond to the gospel of grace by their own assent (as the Arminian teaches).
2. We live in the best of all possible worlds, i.e. in spite of all he tragedy and horrific behaviors man displays, the result of history is that the maximum number of people end up to in heaven.

Hi GusKlenke - the words "by their own assent" are the important ones. And as is the way of things they can be used in both armenian or calvinist theology.
My feeling is that you're trying to justify/explain something that doesn't need justifying and cannot be explained any more than God has already done.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
35 Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?
Romans 10
Go well
><>

 

[Thursday]

A believer with the Holy Spirit, will produce obedience/fruit/conformity to the image of Christ, because I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 12:28

We are always free to leave. We must obey the commandments of Jesus to remain in his love. He doesn't force us to obey.