Romans 6: You will be a slave to sin or righteousness

[Oldmantook]

With regards to the definition of 'imputation', it is a book keepers term, as is atonement/reconciliation:

Atonement/Reconciliation (G2643 καταλλαγή katallagē) - 1. exchange; of the business of money-changers, exchanging equivalent values (Aristotle, others). (Thayer’s Lexicon)

Account (-ed) (Verbs and Noun) (G3049 λογίζομαι logizomai): primarily signifies "to reckon," whether by calculation or imputation, e.g., Gal 3:6 (RV, "reckoned"); then, to deliberate, and so to suppose, "account," Rom 8:36; 14:14 (AV, "esteemeth"); Jhn 11:50; 1Cr 4:1; Hbr 11:19; (AV, "consider"); Act 19:27 ("made of no account;" AV, "despised"); 1Pe 5:12 (AV, "suppose"). It is used of love in 1Cr 13:5, as not taking "account" of evil, RV (AV, "thinketh"). In 2Cr 3:5 the Apostle uses it in repudiation of the idea that he and fellow-servants of God are so self-sufficient as to "account anything" (RV) as from themselves (AV, "think"), i.e., as to attribute anything to themselves. Cp. 2Cr 12:6. In 2Ti 4:16 it is used of laying to a person's "account" (RV) as a charge against him (AV, "charge"). (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
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The corresponding Hebrew quoted by Paul, who is quoting Genesis 15:6, has the same basic meaning of imputed:

Counted (H2803 חָשַׁב chashab)- (H2803 חָשַׁב chashab) To impute something to some one; followed by [special character] of pers. and acc. of the thing; e.g. sin, Psalm 32:2; Sam. 19:20; a good deed, [which is not any work at all, but simply his believing God], Gen. 15:6) (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon)
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That said, I have a thread I started a week or so ago on imputation if your interested in pursuing that:

The 'Imputation' of the Righteousness of God, in Christ. A Book Keepers term.

There are two different topics running together here, justification and sanctification. While they are both essential elements of salvation, keeping the issues and the semantics separate is helpful in sorting all of this out. If you notice the semantics is growing on us but in Romans 6 the word translated 'imputed' is used:

In the same way, count yourselves (G3049 λογίζομαι logizomai) dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:11)
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It's the same word used in Romans 4:3 where Paul is quoting Genesis 15:6. If you notice, the semantics are growing on us, we might want to start keeping the two issues separate. That said, those are the normative definitions for the Hebrew and Greek words used for 'imputation' and the related issue of atonement/reconciliation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I think we both agree that the blood of Jesus is the sufficient atonement for sin. Our difference is whether Jesus' righteousness imputed to the believer. I have made my view clear citing the example of David where he had to confess his sin. If Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us, then all sin is forgiven - past, present and future. But as David's example demonstrates he had to first confess before being made right with God. Thus imputation cannot mean that we possess Christ's righteousness. Instead we must reckon/count ourselves dead to sin by DYING TO SIN in our lives. Do you agree with this or disagree?

 

[mark kennedy]

I think we both agree that the blood of Jesus is the sufficient atonement for sin. Our difference is whether Jesus' righteousness imputed to the believer. I have made my view clear citing the example of David where he had to confess his sin. If Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us, then all sin is forgiven - past, present and future. But as David's example demonstrates he had to first confess before being made right with God. Thus imputation cannot mean that we possess Christ's righteousness. Instead we must reckon/count ourselves dead to sin by DYING TO SIN in our lives. Do you agree with this or disagree?

Of course I agree with that, I understand the need for repentance. But here is a little fun fact for you, did you know that David harbored a murderer right up till his death bed. Joab, his top general had murdered at least two men, he was the one who put the knife in Absolum's ribs as he hung from a branch when David specifically ordered him to take him alive. Joab, the High Priest and David's oldest son were involved in a conspiracy to launch a coup to remove Solomon after David died. David explained to Solomon he needs to look into these things and when he does he will know what to do. David was dead soon after that.

I have a point here, let's not get too caught up with the semantics of imputation. The term is used once in Romans 6:11 to tell us what our attitude should be regarding sin, we should consider (account, reckon, think) ourselves as dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Yes, David repented of a terrible sin with regards to Bathsheba, but even after that he was still less then perfect. He had unrepentant sin right up until a few days before his death. Paul repeats dead to sin, alive to God in Christ over and over in this chapter. We died to sin, buried through baptism into death, therefore just as we have been united with in his death, we are raised to walk in newness of life.

Now we can talk about imputed righteousness as formal doctrine, I have no problem with that. But it's very important we take the use of that term in Romans 4 in it's natural context before projecting meanings all the way into Romans 6. Paul starts using the term based on the righteousness that was imputed (credited) to Abraham by faith. We can talk about David, but if we are going to follow Paul's argument here it's important that we understand how the Apostle uses this term in the epistle of Romans starting with Abraham.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[bcbsr]

I've actually spent a great deal of time on the book of Romans, but there is a section in the chapter that is of special interest. Anytime I look at a translation I haven't seen before, I look up this verse:

By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:2)
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That's from the NIV, notice the first words are 'By no means', every translation seems to translate it differently. It would be literally translated 'not' (μή mē), 'become' (γίνομαι ginomai). The most literal way to translate it is, may it never be, but the KJV and others has it 'God forbid'. I like that passage because it's hard to translate directly, so it's interesting to see how translators handle it.

That said, I've spent a great deal of time on the book of Romans and Romans 6 is of special interest. I'm a firm believer in justification by grace through faith, a doctrine Paul has been expounding for 3 chapters before starting this chapter. Here something changed, the emphasis is shifting from what God has done for us through Christ, to what we as believers and disciples must do with God's grace. He is ultimately answering the charge of those who oppose the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Shall we sin that grace my increase? (Rom. 6:1) He has addressed this question before in the book:

Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just! (Rom. 3:8)
​

Paul here is putting down his strongest argument for the grace of God and how it should motivate the disciple. You will either be a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. Grace should never make us complacent about sin, quite the opposite, it should be why and how we embrace the righteousness of God in Christ in our daily walk and ministry.

Now feel free to offer any insights you may have from the rest of the book but I'm really interested in hearing what you make of this chapter. I'm hoping for an exposition of the chapter, I think there is a lot to be gained from dealing with this passage in depth.

Grace and peace,
Mark

"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope— the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." Titus 2:11-13

 

[bcbsr]

I've actually spent a great deal of time on the book of Romans, but there is a section in the chapter that is of special interest. Anytime I look at a translation I haven't seen before, I look up this verse:

By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:2)
​

The thing about Romans 6:2 is that it's a rhetorical question. Rhetorical questions are not subject to debate because the answer should be so obvious to all that it needs no answer. It's more of an exclamation than it is a serious question. In fact it's not possible for those born of God to continue to live in sinning seeing as "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

The only commands in the whole chapter are 6:11-13

1. Reckon yourself to be dead to sin but alive to God. That is, as Rom 8:2 also implies, sin no longer impacts your status with God

2. Don't let sin reign in your body. In Romans 7 Paul says, "I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." Rom 7:25 In that chapter he describes sin as an entity distinct from himself, a parasite. Because the parasite is not the person, they have to intentionally be mindful of its influence to control its affect. That takes effort.

However it's interesting in Rom 6:14 "For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace." The same kind of thing he also says in Romans 8:2 being free from the law of sin and death. So while the sinful nature has its own destiny, it's not your destiny. The beginning of Romans 7 he also deals with this idea of no longer being under the law by the analogy of formerly being married to the law (sin controlling your destiny), but now you have died and as such that marriage is ended (till death do you part).

The way I take theses is the idea that since your destiny is to be like Christ and live with him, then why not start behaving that way now. "What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?" Rom 6:21 So while those not born of God may respond to the gospel of grace with "why not continue to sin" (as in fact many on these forums have so responded). But those born of God view the gospel of grace and ask "Why continue to sin?". What's the point? What good would it do? What benefits would it gain by continuing in sin? That's the motivation of those born of God.

 

[imMD]

I've actually spent a great deal of time on the book of Romans, but there is a section in the chapter that is of special interest. Anytime I look at a translation I haven't seen before, I look up this verse:

By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:2)
​

That's from the NIV, notice the first words are 'By no means', every translation seems to translate it differently. It would be literally translated 'not' (μή mē), 'become' (γίνομαι ginomai). The most literal way to translate it is, may it never be, but the KJV and others has it 'God forbid'. I like that passage because it's hard to translate directly, so it's interesting to see how translators handle it.

That said, I've spent a great deal of time on the book of Romans and Romans 6 is of special interest. I'm a firm believer in justification by grace through faith, a doctrine Paul has been expounding for 3 chapters before starting this chapter. Here something changed, the emphasis is shifting from what God has done for us through Christ, to what we as believers and disciples must do with God's grace. He is ultimately answering the charge of those who oppose the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Shall we sin that grace my increase? (Rom. 6:1) He has addressed this question before in the book:

Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just! (Rom. 3:8)
​

Paul here is putting down his strongest argument for the grace of God and how it should motivate the disciple. You will either be a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. Grace should never make us complacent about sin, quite the opposite, it should be why and how we embrace the righteousness of God in Christ in our daily walk and ministry.

Now feel free to offer any insights you may have from the rest of the book but I'm really interested in hearing what you make of this chapter. I'm hoping for an exposition of the chapter, I think there is a lot to be gained from dealing with this passage in depth.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I've been spending a lot of time in Romans lately, particularly this part. I feel it is key to understanding who we are and what God has done.

I think the answer is in these:

Romans 7
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In that it is no longer us that sin, instead the sin that lives in us, and in that we are born from God, no longer the child of Adam, then I understand that having been born of God, we now share His nature.

In that we are to "put off the old man" and "put on the new", I understand this to mean that while we were born from Adam's line, now we are born from God. And Just like Jesus was born from God, the Son of God, living in a body of flesh, we are the spirit children of God living in bodies of flesh.

They just happen to be our old bodies.

We still manage the body of flesh the child of Adam, which is hostile to God and always and only sins.

But we aren't that person anymore, instead, we are the new creation, created patterned after God in righteousness and true holiness.

So we are to live that life, and deny Adam's kid. In the new creation, we only and always do righteousness.

The child of Adam is condemned and will be done away. The child of God lives with Him forever.

Much love!
Mark