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Romans 3:31

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by BrotherJJ, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Active Member

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    Romans 3:31 we establish the law parsed.

    When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before & what follows any single verse context.
    ^^^Myles Coverdale, Bible theologian/translator^^^

    So, ask: Who's writing? Paul, Rom 1:1

    Written to whom? NT believer's in Christ's sin payment & resurrection. Rom 1:7

    What are the circumstances? NT believers mixing righteousness via self participation in Mosaic law keeping vs righteousness via faith in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection

    What’s the context BEFORE? God, faith, righteousness/unrighteousness, jew/gentile, justification, law.

    What's the context after? Christ's, Righteousness imputed via Faith. Rom Chapter 4

    We should never take one verse out of context & try to build a doctrine.

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    I'll begin the parsing here:
    20 By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    (NOTE: No one will be justified = judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. Thru any self works)

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    (NOTE: The righteousness of God is now establish without any deeds required via Mosaic law)

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    (NOTE: The righteousness of God is established by the obedient "faith OF Jesus Christ" & is imputed to all them that believe in His sin atoning work)

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    (NOTE: By God's grace thru faith placed in Christ's sin redemptive work, we become justified = judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God.)

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    (NOTE: Propitiation = reconciliation/atonement/appease/satisfy. Christ's righteousness is declared to be sins propitiation. And is imputed onto believers via faith in his death, burial & resurrection)

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    (NOTE: This verse declares the righteousness of Jesus & proclaims Him as the justifier of those who: believe/have faith in Him > His sin payment & resurrection. Not those that follow/keep Mosaic law)

    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    (NOTE: By the LAW of FAITH)

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    (NOTE: Man is justified = judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. By FAITH without the deeds of the law).

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    (NOTE: He's God of BOTH, Jew & Gentile)

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    (NOTE: God justifies = Declared righteous. BOTH the circumcision = JEW, by/through "FAITH". And uncircumcision = GENTILES through/by "FAITH")

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    (NOTE: Its the new covenant ""LAW of FAITH"" Paul's establishing. REREAD vs 27)
     
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  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous through obeying the Mosaic Law when as perfectly good means was already in place, so that was never the purpose for why we should obey it.

    Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous, and the Mosaic Law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to attain it. For example, the law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is by grace through faith. So God's righteous laws teach us about how how to express His righteousness and when we obey them we are testifying about His righteousness, not our own. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. Christ expressed His righteousness through his actions and what that looked like was obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience to the Mosaic Law in accordance with the example that he set for us to follow.

    The Mosaic Law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and obedience to any set of instructions that are claimed to be for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so the Mosaic Law is again of faith. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. In Romans 3:31, it might be natural for someone to conclude from what he said previously that our faith abolishes our need to obey God's law, however, Paul concluded with that verse so that we would not draw that conclusion and instead our faith upholds the Mosaic Law by leading us to obey it.

    In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works in obedience to God's will. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that the Mosaic Law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

    In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. So only those who have faith will obey the Mosaic Law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but did not say that we earn our justification by obeying the law.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  3. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Active Member

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    Hello Soyeong,

    Is Romans 3:31 referencing Mosaic law or faith?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Yes to both. I cited a number of verses in that paragraph that were associating faith with God's Law, so it is not one or the other, but rather our faith upholds the Mosaic Law by being expressed as obedience to it.
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Yes, disobedience is unbelief.
    Exceedingly excellent to this point. . .
    Are you saying justification is "by the same faith" as "faithfulness to the Law"?

    If so, it's time to distinguish between the two kinds of faith:
    faith in God, shown by faithfulness to the law (illustrated in your excellent examples), and
    justifying faith.
    It is not simply faith in God which justifies,
    it
    is faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin that justifies.
    Paul uses the verb "justified" (Gr: dikaioo) 22 times, where it is translated "justify" 20 times, and is translated "declared righteous" two times (Ro 2:13, 3:20), because the faith that justifies is faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin, it's not just faith in God.
    Because faith in God and faithfulness to the law do not translate into justifying (saving) faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, as in the case of the Orthodox Jew,
    dikaioo is translated "declared righteous," rather than "justified," in Ro 2:13.

    Ro 1:18-3:20 is about the unrighteousness of all mankind.
    "Declared righteous" (2:13) is in the context of Judgment Day and the principle of judgment (2:16) "according to deeds" (2:12-15), for all mankind.
    The obedience of Gentiles without the law will be judged by their deeds according to their natural moral nature, enlightened by conscience ("Law of Conscience"), which functioned for them as did the Mosaic law for the Jews.
    The obedience of Jews with the law will be judged by their deeds according to the law.

    Keeping in mind that perfect obedience in "their deeds" is required for this righteousness (2:13),
    there will be no righteousness declared for Jew nor Gentile on Judgment Day, based on their "faithfulness" in law keeping (Ro 3:20). . .also keeping in mind that their being non-faithful in law keeping likewise reveals their non-faith in God (Ro 1:19-20).

    God has bound (shut up) all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in sin so that he may have mercy on them all (Gentile as well as Jew)--Ro 11:32--only through faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin.

    Conclusion:
    Faith in God demonstrated by faithfulness to the Law does not translate into
    justifying (saving) faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Actually, it is Christ's atoning sacrificial death that is declared to be sin's propitiation, which is acceptable as propitiation based on his perfection (righteousness).
    Keeping in mind that for both Jew and Gentile, the faith which justifies is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, not just faith in God.

    Boasting (2:17, 23, 4:2) regarding one's faithfulness is excluded (2:23) in righteousness (justification), because righteousness is by (law of) faith, not by (law of) works, which renders works worthless and nothing to boast about in justification.
    It doesn't seem that the passage justifies that conclusion.

    Throughout the passage (3:20-31), Paul has been contrasting the law of faith to the law of works,
    setting works against faith in justification.
    It's not consistent with the context to equate law of works with law of faith, when
    he has been setting them against one another in the passage.


    Rather, it appears that Paul was concerned about charges of antinomianism--frequently leveled at him by the Judaizers--in his revelation regarding justification by faith without law keeping, and is, therefore, anticipating this charge in:

    "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
    Translate:
    "No, though we do say that the law will not justify us, we do not therefore say that it was given in vain or we are under no moral obligation to it; no,
    we establish the right use of the Decalogue by establishing it on the right basis, as a means of sanctification through obedience, but not as the means of justification. It is still of use to us to direct us, it is still a moral obligation on believers."

    Conclusion: It is not the New Covenant
    law of faith which Paul is establishing, it is the Mosaic Decalogue in the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) which he is establishing--on its right basis, on the right use of it. See Ro 13:8-10.

    Since the death of Christ, the only faith that saves is faith in him and his work on the cross.
    Prior to that, they were saved by faith in the Promise (Christ).
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so he did not earn his justification by his obedience, but rather the same faith by which we he was justified was also expressed as obedience. The same is true of the other examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, which are all examples of obedience to God's will, so it is also the same type of faith. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to to have faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sins (Acts 21:20).

    Only only those who have faith in the atoning work of Jesus will be doers of the Mosaic Law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, but spoke against earning our justification by being a doer of the law. Believing Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Mosaic Law. Our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with the Mosaic Law, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not the Mosaic Law, and needs to be informed by it in order to function correctly.

    In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace the Mosaic Law. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone doesn't feel convicted about continuing to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.

    In Romans 2:26-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), while having an uncircumcised heart is associated with refusing to submit to the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 9:26, Acts 7:51-53).

    Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their righteousness because that has never been a means of becoming righteous. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only means that there has ever been to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous by having perfect obedience when a perfectly good means was already in place, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey the Mosaic Law.

    The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so perfect obedience was never a requirement. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that God required perfect obedience would mean that He essentially gave the Mosaic Law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so the Mosaic Law is the law of faith, along with all of the other verses that I cited that associated it with faith. The phrase "works of the law" has no definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, which were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified. In John 17:17, it says to sanctify them in truth and that God's word is truth. God's law is God's word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33) and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142), not just the Decalogue. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the Law and the Prophet hung on the greatest two commandments, so they are all connected.
     
  9. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Active Member

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    Hello Clare73,

    I see a different contrast

    2 Cor 3:

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    (MY NOTE: We are not to be ministers of law. The new covenant (Heb 12:24) of God with men, is contrast to the one founded by Moses. In the New covenant established by Christ. The fulfilling of the law is no longer defined as the condition of salvation)

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    (MY NOTE: It's properly termed the ministration of death. Because law breakers in certain cases: sabbath breakers, adulteresses, those disobedient to parents. If condemned as willful transgressors were sentenced to death. They were to die without mercy if two or three witnesses testified to their guilt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  10. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    What are all the numbers? And why are the sentences separated? And what are all those notes?? Isn't the Word of God sufficient?
     
  11. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Active Member

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    The numbers are verses copied & pasted from an online bible.

    The sentences are an effort to avoid a wall of text, making an easier read.

    The notes are a personal commentary separated & highlighted by parenthesis.

    I believe the Word of God is ALL sufficient. Having said that, on many, many, many occasions. I've seen Rom 3:31 taken & used without earlier verse context & applied to establishing the law of Moses. Christians were never under the law of Moses (Acts 15:24).

    OP headline Rom 3:31

    Also, I added bible scholar/translator/writer (Myles Coverdale) tips on bible study.

    I then used many verses of bible context in an attempt to make a case. After all, this is a public discussion forum & I chose the Christian scripture thread to discuss Rom 3:31. JJ
     
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The Mosaic law is the law of faith = the law of faith is the Mosaic law,
    in that the law to which faith submits is the Mosaic law, but that's not the same as
    obedience to the Mosaic law = saving faith.

    One can have faith in God and obey the Jewish laws, without having justifying (saving) faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, as in the case of the Orthodox Jew.
    And which also means that it can refer to a definitive set of laws, they are not excluded.
    Apart from the laws revealed in creation, Paul's use of "law" refers to the laws
    given in Scripture only (Ro 3:21).
    Paul defends only the Word of God, never the traditions of men.
    None of which includes oral laws, traditions, rulings and fences as being God's word or God's law.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Or does the letter (law) kill because it reveals sin, the wages of which is death, and so the letter (law) condemns him to death?
    Or would it be that the law reveals sin, the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23), and so by the law he was condemned to death (Ro 7:9)
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the law which faith submit to is the Mosaic Law, though not all submission to the Mosaic Law is through faith. However, the faith in God that is expressed by obeying the Mosaic Law is not distinct from saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to have saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

    Paul spoke about both God's law and works of the law in Romans 3. It seems odd that you want to blur the distinction between the Word of God and the traditions of men by saying that works of the law are inclusive of both while also wanting to make the distinction that Paul defended only the Word of God and never the traditions of men. If Paul spoke against works of the law and that includes the Word of God, then he spoke against the Word of God.
     
  15. happy traveller

    happy traveller Member

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    Its really good you quoted the previous ten verses before verse 31, to quote just the one verse in isolation does not give you the whole picture.
    Paul, in the previous ten verses had been stressing the believer has no righteousness of obeying the law, they had justification apart from that, a justification/righteousness of faith in Christ. What would some of his readers have thought reading those ten verses?
    ''If we have righteousness apart from obeying the law we can ignore the law and live as we choose, our righteousness is not dependant on law keeping.''
    Paul of course would have known that, hence verse31.
    Here's the thing. Paul preached a spiritual message, not one the rational mind could ever accept. Die to righteousness of obeying the law and sin will not be your master:
    For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Romans6:14 That echoes Romans3:31
    And that could just as well be written as:
    For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under righteousness of not committing sin but righteousness of faith in Christ
    For sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
    I repeat, such a message has to be rejected by the rational mind of man for it never will make sense to the rational mind, but it did make sense to Paul, who was mightily led of the Holy Spirit into truth.
    And so, many today will tell you something like, ''you have no righteousness of obeying the law as long as you do obey the law''. (in effect) for they have to place you back under the law, in reality to some extent. For it is a spiritual message that can only be accepted through the Spirit, NOT the rational mind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    So the faith in God of the Orthodox Jew--which denies the atoning work of Jesus Christ, but which obeys the Mosaic law--that faith is not distinct from saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ?

    Are you serious ?
    "Looks like" does not translate into "equal with" when it comes to saving faith, or anything else for that matter.

    "Becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law" is also what it looks like when one tries to earn the righteousness that saves while denying the atoning work of Jesus Christ,
    as does the Orthodox Jew.

    With Paul, the works of the Law are always from the Word of God in the Mosaic Law, ceremonies and regulations, and never from anything or anywhere else.
    You're confused. . .in Paul, the "works of the law" are always those works of the law prescribed in the Word of God in the Mosaic laws, ceremonies and regulations--the Decalogue; regulations for sacrifices; food; cleansings of persons, houses, priests; capital punishment; holy seasons; Holy Place; holy years; the poor; slaves, etc.
    Traditions of men are not the Word of God.
    Paul spoke against the works of the law in the Word of God for justification,
    while he upheld the works of the law in the Word of God in sanctification.

    You're trying to confound the works of the law in sanctification (required) with the works of the law in justification (forbidden), just as you try to confound obedience to the Law with saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

    Why are you trying to blur the gospel of saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ as the only means of justification (given right standing of "not guilty" before God)?

    Are you trying to make unbelief in the atoning work of Jesus Christ
    the same as saving faith?


    Surely not. . .that's another gospel. . .it nullifies the death of Christ!

    ANATHEMA! (cherem)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that "looks like" does not translate to "equal with" because I did say that not all submission to the Mosaic Law is through faith, nevertheless, all faith in God is expressed through obedience to the Mosaic Law, so it is possible for an Orthodox Jew to submit to the Mosaic Law as a means of trying to earn their righteousness without having faith in God, which would be distinct from saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. People who lived before the cross were saved through faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we are and Jesus said that we will know someone by their fruit. A good tree does not bear bad fruit and a bad tree does not bear good fruit.


    In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that is of works with a law that is of faith, so works of the law are the law of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith, and is directly contrasted with works of the law. Furthermore, the Mosaic Law includes the things that you listed, whereas works of the law do not. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul said that works of the law are not of faith, so they can't be referring to the same law as Romans 3:31. Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith, while works of the law are not.

    Please quote where Paul upheld works of the law as a means of sanctification.

    I said nothing about works of the law being required for sanctification. Again, I said that not all submission to the Mosaic Law is through faith, so I did not confound obedience to the Mosaic Law with saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, though all faith in the person and work in Jesus Christ is a expressed as obedience tot he Mosaic Law. I did not say that there was a way of becoming justified other than through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ and I did not say that unbelief in the atoning work of Jesus Christ is the same as saving faith.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    By Mosaic Law I mean the Decalogue, not the abolished ceremonies and regulations (Eph 2:15).

    Sanctification is growth in holiness/righteousness, which involves, for example:
    1Co 5:1, 9, 11, 13, 6:10, 18 10:7, 8, 14; Ro 13:9-10, etc.

    You're going 'round and 'round the same ole bush, hoping to come out in a different and better place;
    i.e., you are still trying to confound a faith in God which denies the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin, as in the Orthodox Jew,
    with a faith in God that believes in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin as in the Christian.

    That is anathema! (cherem). . .preaching a gospel other than the one Paul received (Gal 1:9) from Jesus personally in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5).
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I didn't ask you about what sanctification is, to quote where Paul upheld works of the law as a means of sanctification. In other words, can you show where Paul specifically used the phrase "works of law" in regard to sanctification?

    People can obey the Mosaic Law without having faith in God, and it is the same people who do that who are denying the person and work of Jesus Christ, so I am not confounding faith in God with denying the person and work of Jesus Christ.

    In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites were zealous for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because perused the Mosaic Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of perusing it as though righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the Mosaic Law for righteousness for everyone who believes. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and they were correct to search for it there, but they needed to realize that the goal of everything in Scriptures is to testify about how to have a relationship with Christ and come to him for eternal life. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to have a relationship with Christ. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat, where he had been keeping the Mosaic Law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Mosaic Law and counted it all as rubbish. So again, people can obey the Mosaic Law without having faith in God while denying Christ, but those who have faith in Christ will obey the Mosaic Law.
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    That's what obedience to the Decalogue is for.
    Sanctification is through obedience.

    Do you not understand that to exhort to obedience of the Decalogue is for the purpose of holiness/sanctification through that obedience?

    So. . .can you show where Scripture specifically uses the phrase "God is sovereign" in regard to the sovereignty of God presented in every book of the Bible?
    You are when obeying the Mosaic law with faith in God excludes faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, as it does with the Orthodox Jew.
    Same ole same ole. . .

    All the verbiage does not confound the simple statement:
    Obeying the Mosaic law with a faith in God that denies the person and work of Jesus Christ is not saving gospel faith.

    Am I dealing with blindness here?
     
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