Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,779.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Oh my goodness, you got me!! "Bible" vs. "Scripture". Good argument... Make up your mind, Rome
read @Strong in Him post 155. Pretty much agrees with my response to you.
Is the "Bible" "Scripture" or is it not?
of course it is. But that is not the discussion we are having. The discussion is what was Paul referring to in the letter to Timothy.
If it's Scripture, then the implication of it being inspired is stronger than many of the arguments from silence Rome makes up for their tradition.
What does this have to do with my question to you?
So, Rome "canonizes" the "Bible"
your words, not mine.
and criticizes everyone else when they want to see the "Bible" as the "standard" above Roman tradition.
Because the Bible never claims to be the "Standard". If want to hold your interpretation of the Bible as the "Standard", go ahead. Just realize you are following a man made idea.
And now Rome's adherents want to suggest the NT Writings are not God inspired
you are making things up. No one ever suggested that the NT writing are God inspired.
and in effect make Roman tradition the standard
Jesus promised us a Church. Jesus never promised us a book. I'll follow Jesus, you follow man.
Rome is both the canonizer and the canon. We outside have known this. Nothing new.
if that made any sense, I would offer a response.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Oh my goodness, you got me!! "Bible" vs. "Scripture". Good argument... Make up your mind, Rome. Is the "Bible" "Scripture" or is it not? If it's Scripture, then the implication of it being inspired is stronger than many of the arguments from silence Rome makes up for their tradition.

If it's not Scrtipture, then if anyone added to the "Scripture," it was Rome, was it not? So, I guess we chuck all the NT writings and go back to the Jews, in which case Rome is really out of line, which is pretty much the Messianic position anyway, not to mention most of the Protestants.

So, Rome "canonizes" the "Bible" and criticizes everyone else when they want to see the "Bible" as the "standard" above Roman tradition. And now Rome's adherents want to suggest the NT Writings are not God inspired, and in effect make Roman tradition the standard. IOW according to Rome, Rome is both the canonizer and the canon. We outside have known this. Nothing new.
The Catholic Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. We know all 73 of those books of the Bible are God-breathed because the Catholic Church decided it was so. The process of selecting Biblical text spanned centuries. Catholic Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles, Catholic Sacred Tradition existed before one Word of the NT was written.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh my goodness, you got me!! "Bible" vs. "Scripture". Good argument... Make up your mind, Rome. Is the "Bible" "Scripture" or is it not? If it's Scripture, then the implication of it being inspired is stronger than many of the arguments from silence Rome makes up for their tradition.

If it's not Scrtipture, then if anyone added to the "Scripture," it was Rome, was it not? So, I guess we chuck all the NT writings and go back to the Jews, in which case Rome is really out of line, which is pretty much the Messianic position anyway, not to mention most of the Protestants.

So, Rome "canonizes" the "Bible" and criticizes everyone else when they want to see the "Bible" as the "standard" above Roman tradition. And now Rome's adherents want to suggest the NT Writings are not God inspired, and in effect make Roman tradition the standard. IOW according to Rome, Rome is both the canonizer and the canon. We outside have known this. Nothing new.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the problem.

The question I read was "tell me where Scripture says that the Bible is inspired".
Short answer: it doesn't. Scripture talks about Scripture, not the Bible - a word that came into use later from Biblios, meaning books, and referring to the Old and New Testaments.
Scripture says that scripture is inspired. When Paul wrote that to Timothy, they had, mostly, only the OT writings. These days we use the words interchangeably to refer to the Bible - OT and NT.

But as I answered your question to someone else and have possibly completely misunderstood, I'll bow out and leave you to it.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Catholic Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. We know all 73 of those books of the Bible are God-breathed because the Catholic Church decided it was so. The process of selecting Biblical text spanned centuries. Catholic Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles, Catholic Sacred Tradition existed before one Word of the NT was written.

The RCC has changed over the years. It's not the same church as 100AD. Tradition is in many ways great, but tradition can also be dangerous. Wrong ideas can find it's way into church this way. Don't get me wrong, I love the RCC, I just don't agree with everything.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Perfect!

Now, go to the previous verse. The previous verse tells us that the Holy Scriptures are those Timothy knew from his youth. It is believed that Timothy was born around 20ish A.D. So, the scriptures that Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh. Paul is referring to the Hebrew scripture. or Tanakh.

So, now that we have that explained and cleared up, tell me where scripture tells us that the Bible is God-breathed.

Since the NT says that OT scripture is inspired by God, we assume it also goes with NT since we take NT as scripture. The question is maybe how we know NT is scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The RCC has changed over the years. It's not the same church as 100AD. Tradition is in many ways great, but tradition can also be dangerous. Wrong ideas can find it's way into church this way. Don't get me wrong, I love the RCC, I just don't agree with everything.
I would not characterize the Word of God, whether oral as in Sacred Tradi
Since the NT says that OT scripture is inspired by God, we assume it also goes with NT since we take NT as scripture. The question is maybe how we know NT is scripture.
Jews differed as to what they thought was Holy Scripture. In the early Church readings at mass differed from region to region, and the Catholic Church wanted only Holy Scripture for readings. The process of deciding what was God-breathed took centuries, but in the late 300s the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Christianity is not based on an assumption.

Why don't you tell me instead how you know the NT is inspired by God? I won't take the church says so as an answer.

To the topic, I have still not seen anything in this thread that shows Mary was sinless ...

Because the church says so? How do you know the church is right? Because God instituted the church. How do you know God instituted the church? Because scripture says so. How do you know scripture is right? Because the church says so. That's circular argument, leading us to the assumption the church is right.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
if you refuse to listen to reason, then there is nothing more.to discuss

I'm willing to listen if you can show your view is right.

I'm also willing to have a dialogue with you. If you don't want to for whatever reason, well, then have a blessed day!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Why don't you tell me instead how you know the NT is inspired by God? I won't take the church says so as an answer.

To the topic, I have still not seen anything in this thread that shows Mary was sinless ...

Because the church says so? How do you know the church is right? Because God instituted the church. How do you know God instituted the church? Because scripture says so. How do you know scripture is right? Because the church says so. That's circular argument, leading us to the assumption the church is right.
Our Church in nearly two thousand years old, it existed before the Bible. There was no Bible before the Catholic Church. As to the OT the Jews disagreed as to what scrolls were God-breathed. Many books which I am confident you accept as Holy Scripture do not identify within the text as being Holy Scripture.
Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and in words paralleling Isaiah 22:22 gave Rock the keys of the kingdom, a sign of authority as per Isaiah. This was eventually written down. The Catholic Church, headed by Jesus, derives none of its power from the Bible, all power comes from God. While all of the Bible is beneficial, our Church existed without the Bible. The idea of the Bible as sole authority caught on many many centuries later when two Christians were quite struck by an Arab theologian who preached that the Quran was the sole authority. The Church never included any statement in the Bible stating that the entire Bible (all 73 books and only those books) is God-breathed.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Our Church in nearly two thousand years old, it existed before the Bible. There was no Bible before the Catholic Church. As to the OT the Jews disagreed as to what scrolls were God-breathed. Many books which I am confident you accept as Holy Scripture do not identify within the text as being Holy Scripture.
Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and in words paralleling Isaiah 22:22 gave Rock the keys of the kingdom, a sign of authority as per Isaiah. This was eventually written down. The Catholic Church, headed by Jesus, derives none of its power from the Bible, all power comes from God. While all of the Bible is beneficial, our Church existed without the Bible. The idea of the Bible as sole authority caught on many many centuries later when two Christians were quite struck by an Arab theologian who preached that the Quran was the sole authority. The Church never included any statement in the Bible stating that the entire Bible (all 73 books and only those books) is God-breathed.

Even if you are right that Peter was the first pope, how can we know what was passed down through the generations stick to the right teachings?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Even if you are right that Peter was the first pope, how can we know what was passed down through the generations stick to the right teachings?
We have an historical record of much of what happened and what was understood.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We have an historical record of much of what happened and what was understood.

I have realized there are hundreds of things to be said about this topic, and I don't see what you or I will get out of it. Like I said I love the Catholic church for many reasons, that doesn't change because I don't agree on everything. I believe Jesus grounded the Church, that all believers that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are part of his Church, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox etc. From my view the Church began when Jesus called his first disciple. Be free to disagree. Have a good day!
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We have an historical record of much of what happened and what was understood.

I like to say one more thing. One reason I believe the NT is inspired by God is because the Early Church Fathers held this view. Secondly, this view is universal among churches today. Thirdly, if the OT scripture is inspired, how much more mustn't the NT be inspired by God, written by Jesus own apostles.

Edit: I know that every NT book wasn't written by an apostle, but those close to the apostles.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

readywriter

Newbie
May 4, 2010
472
105
UK
✟69,130.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day
'For all have sinned,
and come short of the glory of God;'

(Rom 3:23)

Hello @Fidelibus,

I have not read this thread through, just want to respond to your OP.

I believe the argument leading up to this conclusion, reveal the word 'all' to be an absolute. For Paul has been looking at both Jew and Gentile, and has shown that all indeed have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Thus providing a level playing field for all men in regard to the grace of God, for all are in need of His salvation.

Why do you believe it is not?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
'For all have sinned,
and come short of the glory of God;'

(Rom 3:23)

Hello @Fidelibus,

I have not read this thread through, just want to respond to your OP.

I believe the argument leading up to this conclusion, reveal the word 'all' to be an absolute. For Paul has been looking at both Jew and Gentile, and has shown that all indeed have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Thus providing a level playing field for all men in regard to the grace of God, for all are in need of His salvation.

Why do you believe it is not?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris[/QUOTE
Catholics do not believe that Jesus sinned, nor that newborn babies have sinned. Why, for example, why would you think we are wrong about Jesus and newborn babies? I think there are severely mentally handicapped individuals who have not sinned. Perhaps you have a different understanding of sin.
Likewise, as someone else brought up, I don't think that when ALL of Judea went to be baptized that every pagan, every Roman soldier in Judea, went to be baptized. When someone says that the whole of a small townwent out to watch their baseball team play in another small town, the intention is not to deceive about those who are too sick or old to travel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

readywriter

Newbie
May 4, 2010
472
105
UK
✟69,130.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Catholics do not believe that Jesus sinned, nor that newborn babies have sinned. Why, for example, why would you think we are wrong about Jesus and newborn babies? I think there are severely mentally handicapped individuals who have not sinned. Perhaps you have a different understanding of sin.
Likewise, as someone else brought up, I don't think that when ALL of Judea went to be baptized that every pagan, every Roman soldier in Judea, went to be baptized. When someone says that the whole of a small town went out to watch their baseball team play in another small town, the intention is not to deceive about those who are too sick or old to travel.
Hello @Valletta,

Thank you for responding, and for telling me what Catholics believe regarding these things. The Bible tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ was without sin, so of that we can be sure.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Upvote 0