Romans 2 shows both succeeding and Failing examples

[Byfaithalone1]

A Bible text.

That is the subject of this post, a post to which you offered no reply:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49835165&postcount=47

BFA

 

[Joe67]

shall our unbelief make the faith of God of no effect?

When the son of man comes, will he find faith?

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

When the son of man comes, will he find faith?

If He does, it will not come as a shock to His system. After all, He is the author and the finisher of our faith.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

shall our unbelief make the faith of God of no effect?

When the son of man comes, will he find faith?

Joe

To whom is God faithful too first? You or Himself?

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Again from the point of the lost person... the lost person sees that the Law still exists and is STILL authorotative and so it STILL condemns the lost pointing to their need of a savior. The Lost then submits - surrenders to Christ, confesses and repents (under the influence and power of the Holy Spirit) and is "born again" by the Holy Spirit.

The lost comes to Christ admitting to the PROBLEM. which is law breaking.

The lost does not come to Christ to "persevere in being lost". This is not what Paul argues in Rom 2:7.

Rather what Christ argues in Matt 7 and what Paul argues in Rom 2:7 are the same thing. They speak about the Bible doctrine we call "perseverance of the saints" --- something our 4 point Calvinist friends have a hard time with.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob you have once again made it about you and performance to law and not Christ who died in your place. The problem is not the law breaking, but the persons sinful nature. The law only exposes the sin within.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Notice that in Romans 2 we have only TWO groups for ALL mankind.

1. Those who go to heaven.

2. Those who go to hell.

Those in heaven are seen in Romans 2:7

Those going to hell are seen in Rom 2:8.

And the point you continue to not understand is that God never ever judges the justified christian by a set of do's and dont's. Paul is making a point to the hypocrits in that chapter about judging others. Verses 6 and 7 relate to such a judgment...based on performance and not grace...to which if so, we all get what we deserve, eternal death. Do you always obey the truth? Are you not at time contentious?

Paul says that ALL "both Jew AND Gentile" will be in ONE of those two groups. Because of this Paul can make the argument in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial". The rule identified covers ALL.

Why not quote it in context?

(Rom 2:12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(Rom 2:13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(Rom 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(Rom 2:15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Do you always do what the law containes? IF not you are going to an eternal death.

Have you ever sinned without law? If so you will perish without law.

Have you sinned in the law? If so you will be judged by the law.

Are you gentile a law unto yourself?


AT

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
Christ is the one that said "you shall know them by their fruits" Matt 7

BFA
Christ does not suggest, "You will know you are saved by your fruits." Rather, in addressing the subject of false prophets, he writes, "you will know them by their fruits."

In Matt 7 Christ said "not EVERYONE who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of my Father".

in Matt 7 "EVERYONE who HEARS these words of mine and acts on them is like the man who built his house upon the rocks".

So also "The GOOD tree produces GOOD fruit" in Matt 7 simply shows why it is that we can discern true leaders from false ones -- because these rules apply to EVERYONE who is born again.

So we continue to find the same principle applied to ALL in Romans 2 "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are Just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified". The same topic bringing out the same point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
I have already agreed a long time ago that this is not HOW the bad tree BECOMES a good tree -- rather it is the objective and accurate rule of Matt 7 that SEES that the tree either IS bad or good. Looking at the tree -- does not change the tree.

BFA some inconvenient details for you to consider;

1. Christ points to BOTH good trees and BAD trees in Matt 7.

2. Paul points to BOTH the cases of those who go to heaven AND to those who fail and go to hell in Romans 2. Only TWO groups and ALL mankind "both Jew and Gentile" fall into one group or the other.

3. In each of your replies you seem to only grasp the failing examples -- only the bad trees of Matt 7 and only the failing group of Romans 2 -- completely turning a blind eye to what the text says about the other group -- the "good trees" of Matt 7 and the "succeeding cases" of Romans 2. You continue to refuse to look at the case of the saints.
​

I agree. Looking at the tree does not change the tree. It merely confirms that the tree is in need of salvation.

OR as in the case of the Matt 7 GOOD tree -- it confirms that the person HAS salvation!

Hint -- see how the rest of the chapter comes into play by accepting both subjects?

BFA
Matthew 7 does not establish a new justification that is different from the justification described throughout Scripture.

Well not different that the Justification in Rom 2:13 and the one in James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone" I will grant you that.

It is also NOT different from the justification seen in 2Cor 5:10 "EACH must given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good or evil".

So once again - I agree that Matt 7 is consistent with other texts that speak to this SAME subject of the perseverance of the SAINTS.

The tree is credited with goodness and does not become truly good until all things are made new. According to Matthew 19:27-28,

How "instructive" that you refuse to quote the text of Matt 7 when supposedly interpreting it! Hint: Nothing at all in Matt 19:27-28 about "good trees". To see Christ addressing the subject of "Good trees" go to Matt 7.

Bob said
You seem to stumble when it comes to the Bible doctrine of "perseverance of the saints"

Which is curious because only the extreme 4 point Calvinist model rejects the Bible doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints - 3 and 5 point Calvinists accept it - as does the Arminian position.

How is it you are taking such an extreme Calvinist position that even most Calvinists themselves would reject?

BFA
If so, then I am in good company. For all of us stumble when it comes to our perseverence.

Is that what the Bible teaches in Rom 2:7?

Shall we go through the 20 or so texts on perseverance as we might do when discussing this topic with a 4 point Calvinist?

It is for this reason that we are in need of a Savior.

Indeed - if NOT talking about the saints -- if JUST stuck in the perspective of "the lost" then we always say "Please do NOT persevere in being lost".

This is the part you seem to accept freely.

It is the value of the Gospel AFTER being saved that you seem to struggle with - but that is what Paul is pointing to in Rom 2:7-11 and it is what Christ references in Matt 7.

Notice what Paul says in Romans 11 "QUITE right THEY were broken off for unbelief - and you stand only by your faith.. therefore you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM then NEITHER will he spare you"

(Here again is another place I would typically take my 4 point Calvinist friends).

Nonetheless, I rightly notice that, if I persevere, it is because of He who dwells within me and not because of any goodness that I independently possess.

IF you persevere then it is because you have chosen the same course as did Paul in 1Cor 9 "I Buffet my body and MAKE it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I myself should be disqualified".

"IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God" Romans 9.

(Again - texts that would quickly surface in a discussion with 4 point Calvinists objecting to the Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints0.

As you point out - all of this persevering is being done in the NEW Creation through "Christ in me" for "it is no longer I who live but Christ who LIVES in me and the LIFE I live IN THE FLESH I live by faith in the Son of God" Gal 2:20

Bob saidby choosing to ONLY allow your thoughts to dwell on the context of the lost needing to BECOME saved. A thing that happens basically in an INSTANT!

BFA
Really?

Yes "really" - "for with the heart one believes... and with the mouth they confess resulting in salvation" Romans 10.

BFA
It would seem that you believe that, though a person may be saved in an instant, he doesn't really know whether he is saved because he doesn't know whether he has adequately earned the right to maintain the free gift of salvation.

Really? ?????

Quote please.

Where have I ever said such a thing???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob commenting on the fact that both BFA and AT seem to only accept the Bible truth about the Law of God from the POV of the lost person - never from the POV of the saints and the Bible teaching of the "Perseverance of the saints" found in places like Romans 2, Matt 7, 2Cor 5, Romans 11, Romans 6, 1Cor 6 ... etc.

Bob
Again from the point of the lost person... the lost person sees that the Law still exists and is STILL authorotative and so it STILL condemns the lost pointing to their need of a savior. The Lost then submits - surrenders to Christ, confesses and repents (under the influence and power of the Holy Spirit) and is "born again" by the Holy Spirit.

The lost comes to Christ admitting to the PROBLEM. which is law breaking.

The lost does not come to Christ to "persevere in being lost". This is not what Paul argues in Rom 2:7.

Rather what Christ argues in Matt 7 and what Paul argues in Rom 2:7 are the same thing. They speak about the Bible doctrine we call "perseverance of the saints" --- something our 4 point Calvinist friends have a hard time with.

Here we see the focus of Paul contrasting the perseverance of the saints -- against the determined rebellion of those who are lost. He brings to view ALL the world divided into just TWO groups. All will either be among the saved or the lost.

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.

AT said -

Bob you have once again made it about you and performance to law and not Christ who died in your place.

Correction. I am not the author of Romans 2 that shows BOTH the failing cases AND the successful cases. The fact that Paul divides all of mankind between the lost and the saved seems to keep illuding your responses.

AT
The problem is not the law breaking, but the persons sinful nature. The law only exposes the sin within.

True --- from the standpoint of the one who is lost and needs to accept Christ.

I agree completely.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Notice that in Romans 2 we have only TWO groups for ALL mankind.

1. Those who go to heaven.

2. Those who go to hell.

Those in heaven are seen in Romans 2:7

Those going to hell are seen in Rom 2:8.​

​

AT
And the point you continue to not understand is that God never ever judges the justified christian by a set of do's and dont's.

This is your "exegesis" of Rom 2:7-11????

Paul divides all of mankind between the two groups -- the saved Rom 2:7 and the lost Rom 2:8 -- he keeps doing that through vs 11 Then in even MORE detail down to vs 16. And finally in the remainder of the chapter Paul argues that LAW BREAKING causes the name of God to be "blasphemed among the gentiles" INSTEAD of making the case "LAW breaking is your only choice -- so get comfortable with it and just keep asking for grace and forgiveness".

Paul is making a point to the hypocrits in that chapter about judging others. Verses 6 and 7 relate to such a judgment...based on performance and not grace...to which if so, we all get what we deserve, eternal death. Do you always obey the truth? Are you not at time contentious?

Paul does not argue "death and hell" for those in Romans 2:7. NOR does Paul argue in vs 17-23 "your law breaking is not causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles -- it is just the prison we are all stuck in -- enslaved to sin so ask forgiveness and keep on with your law breaking".

That point is not made in all of Romans.

Bob said
Paul says that ALL "both Jew AND Gentile" will be in ONE of those two groups. Because of this Paul can make the argument in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial". The rule identified covers ALL.

AT
Why not quote it in context?

I keep "doing that".

Romans 2
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

Paul argues that the Geniles are NOT judged by the same standard as Jews. Clearly gentiles with no Bible at all - with no access to God's Word would not know that they should not pray to false gods or that they should not pray to the dead or that they should keep the Sabbath or that they should not have multiple wives etc. But they WILL show the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart - bringing the fruits of the Spirit - Love, Joy, Peace, Patience... IF they have been "convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment" and have yielded to the Holy Spirit "For he is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY ..."

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]

In Romans 2 Paul never presents the idea of rebellion as doing anything OTHER than "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" -- there is no message at all there about "Jews needing to get comfortable with living a life of rebellion - so just keep asking for forgiveness and don't worry about all that rebellion".

The message of Romans 2 does not support any such spin-doctoring of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When dealing with the Law of God from the perspective of the lost -- the one who is NOT to persevere we have these questions --

Do you always do what the law containes? IF not you are going to an eternal death.

Have you ever sinned without law? If so you will perish without law.

Have you sinned in the law? If so you will be judged by the law.

Are you gentile a law unto yourself?

Paul argues that the Gentiles will not be judged by the Law known to Jews in terms of praying to the dead, multiple wives, worship of idols, multiple gods, failing to keep Sabbath etc. Rather they will be judged by what they DO know to be right as the Spirit who "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" has also convicted THEM. IF indeed they show the works of the Law WRITTEN on the tablets of the human heart (I will write My LAW on their heart) then they SHOW the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit in their heart - revealed in their life for "He is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY" as Paul points out in Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

Paul argues that the Geniles are NOT judged by the same standard as Jews. Clearly gentiles with no Bible at all - with no access to God's Word would not know that they should not pray to false gods or that they should not pray to the dead or that they should keep the Sabbath or that they should not have multiple wives etc. But they WILL show the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart - bringing the fruits of the Spirit - Love, Joy, Peace, Patience... IF they have been "convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment" and have yielded to the Holy Spirit "For he is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY ..."

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]

In Romans 2 Paul never presents the idea of rebellion as doing anything OTHER than "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" -- there is no message at all there about "Jews needing to get comfortable with living a life of rebellion - so just keep asking for forgiveness and don't worry about all that rebellion".

The message of Romans 2 does not support any such spin-doctoring of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

The argument is the same Bob. You can't just cut a few passages off from the context to make it say what you think it aught to say. Pauls point is that salvation past, present and future is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and never in out performance. IF it was by grace alone in the begining and then by performance once we are saved, then you are destined to hell. Paul sets the stage for this chapter at the begining.

God’s Righteous Judgment
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?​

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1984 (Ro 2:1). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.




They where passing condemnation on others for their actions, so God's judgment will be the same for them...without grace and mercy in Christ, but by the law only. That is the point of the whole chapter that you fail to understand.

AT

 

[BobRyan]

The argument is the same Bob. You can't just cut a few passages off from the context to make it say what you think it aught to say.

You keep ignoring the text in blue that shows the succeeding cases. I have shown this with about 16 of the 26 verses in this one chapter alone.

"A few passages"??

I am simply pointing out that you are selectively ignoring all the text I have highlighted in blue to re-spin this as "only failing examples given in Romans 2".

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49892665&postcount=71
I show beyond doubt that the "only failing cases" summary for Romans 2 is not the case as we can all see the texts there "in blue" highlight.

Paul's point is that the GOSPEL judgment he describes as being FUTURE - is based on works "It is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 points to that future GOSPEL judgment and shows that it is based on what the person DOES.

Christ confirms this in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

This is again the notion of LOOKING to see whether the tree is good or bad -- looking does not change the tree.

You have argued that this is all "saved by grace through faith" I agree. The act of LOOKING does not change that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

You keep ignoring the text in blue that shows the succeeding cases. I have shown this with about 16 of the 26 verses in this one chapter alone.

"A few passages"??

I am simply pointing out that you are selectively ignoring all the text I have highlighted in blue to re-spin this as "only failing examples given in Romans 2".

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49892665&postcount=71
I show beyond doubt that the "only failing cases" summary for Romans 2 is not the case as we can all see the texts there "in blue" highlight.

Paul's point is that the GOSPEL judgment he describes as being FUTURE - is based on works "It is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 points to that future GOSPEL judgment and shows that it is based on what the person DOES.

Ok Bob....you say a man is justified by doing the the law, Correct? So let me ask a few simple questions.

(1) Why does Paul say to those who he was addressing, a man is justified by doing the law? I mean...why did he say that from the context of Romans Chapter 2?

(2) So you teach that Paul is really teaching that men are justified by law keeping? Then how do you reconcile that teaching with Romans 2:28,29 where Paul rejects the notion of the letter?

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Christ confirms this in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

This is again the notion of LOOKING to see whether the tree is good or bad -- looking does not change the tree.

You have argued that this is all "saved by grace through faith" I agree. The act of LOOKING does not change that.

Christ is not confirming that men are justified by law keeping in Matthews 7, nor any place in the bible. Mattthew 7:15-20 is about knowing false prophets when you see them. If it was about knowing if believers where really justified believers by their actions and law keeping, then Paul really does not have a argument in Romans chapter 2 to the Jews about their hypocrisy of condemning others because of their actions. And no justified christian is perfect in deed and performance any ways.....any given time, believers may give into the carnal nature and act unchristian like, so our judgment is unwarranted before God, which brings us back to Pauls point in Romans chapter 2.

AT

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul oaf man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.

Bob said

You keep ignoring the text in blue that shows the succeeding cases. I have shown this with about 16 of the 26 verses in this one chapter alone.

"A few passages"??

I am simply pointing out that you are selectively ignoring all the text I have highlighted in blue to re-spin this as "only failing examples given in Romans 2".

http://christianforums.com/showpost....5&postcount=71
I show beyond doubt that the notion that there are "only failing cases" mentioned in Romans 2 is not the case at all - as we can all see the texts there "in blue" highlight.

Paul's point is that the GOSPEL judgment he describes as being FUTURE - is based on works "It is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 points to that future GOSPEL judgment and shows that it is based on what the person DOES.

AT

Ok Bob....you say a man is justified by doing the the law, Correct? So let me ask a few simple questions.

(1) Why does Paul say to those who he was addressing, a man is justified by doing the law? I mean...why did he say that from the context of Romans Chapter 2?

(2) So you teach that Paul is really teaching that men are justified by law keeping? Then how do you reconcile that teaching with Romans 2:28,29 where Paul rejects the notion of the letter?

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1. Paul argues IN FAVOR of being a Jew "inwardly"
2. Paul argues that the one who is keeping the law IS THE ONE who is the Jew "inwardly"

As we see in vs 25-28 the one who "is a Jew inwardly" is that one that is KEEPING the LAW.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -

Christ confirms this in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

This is again the notion of LOOKING to see whether the tree is good or bad -- looking does not change the tree.

You have argued that this is all "saved by grace through faith" I agree. The act of LOOKING does not change that.
​

Matt 7 - not everyone who "SAYS LORD LORD will ENTER the Kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father will ENTER"

Christ does not argue that "just prophets" have to be good trees with good fruit in Matt 7 -- rather Christ argues that EVERYONE who DOES the will of the Father enters - and those that merely "SAY LORD LORD" will not enter.

Paul makes the same point in Rom 2:13 "it is not the HEARERS of the LAw that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JustIFIED"

AT
Christ is not confirming that men are justified by law keeping in Matthews 7, nor any place in the bible. Mattthew 7:15-20 is about knowing false prophets when you see them. If it was about knowing if believers where really justified believers by their actions and law keeping, then Paul really does not have a argument in Romans chapter 2 to the Jews about their hypocrisy of condemning others because of their actions.

How so?

Paul argues that the Jews ACTIONs cause "the name of God to be Blasphemed among the Gentiles" IF those actions are examples of Law BREAKING!

In Romans 2 - law BREAKING causes the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles -- it is never called "a good thing".

Rather it is the "perseverance of the saints" in Rom 2:7 that is "good" in Romans 2.

God "is not partial" as Paul points out - so he will not simply "take the Jew no matter how they rebell against God's LAW" simply "because they are Jews" and then reject Gentiles no matter how they serve God "because they are gentiles".

Paul makes his point in triplicate in Romans 2 - it is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

Romans 2
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul oaf man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.





25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1. Paul argues IN FAVOR of being a Jew "inwardly"

Yes Paul makes that argument. But you never answered my question. Why was he making that argument in the first place?


So is a Jew inwardly about following a list of do's and do nots? Pauls says no.

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical

Those things where of the law...agreed?

2. Paul argues that the one who is keeping the law IS THE ONE who is the Jew "inwardly"

No he does not! Again, read what he said.

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical

Do you agree that outward performance to law and physical circumcision is of the law? If so then Paul says this is not a real Jew.

As we see in vs 25-28 the one who "is a Jew inwardly" is that one that is KEEPING the LAW.

But thats not what Paul said. Here is what he said.

(Rom 2:25) For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
(Rom 2:26) So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
(Rom 2:27) Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
(Rom 2:28) For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
(Rom 2:29) But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

So who is it that performs the law without breaking it? No one! Thats one reason Christ came to die...to reconcile us all to the Father becasue we all missed the mark of righteousness because of our sinful natures that can't measure up. That is the truth and that is the gospel.

(Rom 3:9) What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
(Rom 3:10) as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

AT

 

[BobRyan]

1. Paul argues that the desired condition is being a Jew "INWARDLY"

2. Paul argues that the ones that are Jews "inwardly" are in fact those that are keeping the Law of God.

Yes Paul makes that argument. But you never answered my question. Why was he making that argument in the first place?

Actually I already gave that answer -

Here it is again.

Bob said -
Paul argues that the Jews ACTIONs cause "the name of God to be Blasphemed among the Gentiles" IF those actions are examples of Law BREAKING!

In Romans 2 - law BREAKING causes the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles -- it is never called "a good thing".

Rather it is the "perseverance of the saints" in Rom 2:7 that is "good" in Romans 2.

God "is not partial" as Paul points out - so he will not simply "take the Jew no matter how they rebell against God's LAW" simply "because they are Jews" and then reject Gentiles no matter how they serve God "because they are gentiles".

Paul makes his point in triplicate in Romans 2 - it is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob observes the "details" in the text --

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1. Paul argues IN FAVOR of being a Jew "inwardly"

So is a Jew inwardly about following a list of do's and do nots? Pauls says no.

Are you exegeting that text above just by saying "Paul says no"???

I think the case has to be made FROM The text you are trying to explain or interpret -- not "in spite of it".

If you seek to explain the text by avoiding the text -- then what every-day run-of-the-mill man-made-tradition could not do the same every day of the week?

Have you answered Paul's question??

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?


in Christ,

Bob