Romans 2 shows both succeeding and Failing examples

[Adventtruth]

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

But becasue they where unrepentant, Paul was forced to tell them they where in danger of a judgment by works that only leads to wrath and damnation. This is the rightous judgment of God.

Do you agree?

AT

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

PAST Justification "example"
"Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1
​

AT
You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.

[FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]1[/font] O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth--before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]2[/font] this only do I wish to learn from you--by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?

3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end?
4 so many things did ye suffer in vain! if, indeed, even in vain.
5 He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you--by works of law or by the hearing of faith is it?
Gal 3:1-5 (YLT)

Pauls argument is that you can't be justified and then try to continue to be justified through works. You also have a flawed understanding of the James text. In context James is only pointing out that the works prove the genuines of your faith. Works testify of your faith in the Lord.

Ok first let me say "he-he!! you have the SAMe problem with Microsoft VISTA Office2007 Word that I do!!"

ok - I think I am over that now.

You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.

How so? By simply quoting Rom 2:13??

Hint. In Gal 3 Paul is not dealing with "peseverance in doing good" in Rom 2:7 he is. In Gal 3 the problem is that the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance". There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.

The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.

No point in mixing Rom 2:7 with Gal 3 because in Romans 2 Paul clearly argues in FAVOR of the good scenarios and against the bad ones.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

Here he tells them that God gives to every person who is without repentence, who neglect the goodness of God that leads to repentance, and passing judgment on others for their wrong doing, while doing the samethings, God will judge them according totheir performance and not according to grace and mercy inChirst.

Do you agree?

I'll wait for your answers, but I hope you see where Paul is going with this. If not, kindly go back over what Ihave written, and get your self a good bible and go over it slowly.

AT

 

[BobRyan]

But becasue they where unrepentant, Paul was forced to tell them they where in danger of a judgment by works that only leads to wrath and damnation. This is the rightous judgment of God.

Do you agree?

AT

In the failing examples of Romans 2 -- (the ones Paul says get the reward of hell -- or the lake of fire), I agree... but in the case of the ones who "Persevere in doing good" Rom 2:7 and are given "eternal life" I do not agree that this eternal life is the reward for unrepentance. They are examples of those who repent and "perform deeds worthy of repentance" as Paul states in his writings.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
FUTURE Justification

"example"
"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED"

Notice that the past justification is "By faith alone"

Notice that future justification is based on evaluation of the fruit IN the life -- what the person DOES reveals what the "tree that is" or as Paul says in Romans 2:7 "PERSEVERING in doing GOOD"

BOTH deal with Gospel "Justification"

in Christ,
​

Bob

AT
This is where you need to understand this chapter . Paul is making remarks based upon the actions of the Jews who where judgmental. In a nut shell he was giving them judgment by works. Besides who is it that does good?

If you like you and I can go through Romans chapter 2 together line by line...are you game?

It IS true that SOME examples in Romans 2 are failing ones (both for Jews and gentiles) and they get the result of "damnation" condemnation and wrath. OF those we can agree that their problem is a refusal to submit to the Gospel - refusal to repent.

By contrast in Romans 2:7 we ALSO have the succeeding cases -- those who "persevere in doing good" and have the reward of "eternal life".

---

going through the chapter vs-by-vs is great -- I say let's keep doing it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here he tells them that God gives to every person who is without repentence, who neglect the goodness of God that leads to repentance, and passing judgment on others for their wrong doing, while doing the samethings, God will judge them according totheir performance and not according to grace and mercy inChirst.

Do you agree?

I'll wait for your answers, but I hope you see where Paul is going with this. If not, kindly go back over what Ihave written, and get your self a good bible and go over it slowly.

AT

You don't like my NASB????

His statement about "judging according to deeds" combined with this review of both succeeding cases and failing cases where Paul then argues that this proves God "is not partial" -- is the point.

Paul is showing that those who go to heaven are the ones who "persevere in doing good" in Rom 2:7.

He argues this point repeatedly EVEN to the point of "extremes" taking the case of the non-Bible aware Gentiles who "KEEPS the Law" and contrasting him with those few Bible-Aware Jewish Christians that are in rebellion against it. He argues that their status as Jew -- will not save them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Care to comment on Paul's statements in Romans that "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified" and "a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law?

Since you've highlighted the phrase "doers of the law will be justified," would you care to explain how it is that you believe a man can become a doer of the law? Is there only One who is good or many who are good? Is human righteousness something more than filthy rags? Is the whole world a prisoner of sin, or just some of it? According to Romans, how many have sinned?

Becuase as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".

I note that you did not answer my question. My question was this:

Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
​

Further, I note that you define salvation as "a new creation." Please provide the Biblical basis for this definition.

I just conclude that "the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 is in fact a "true" statement.

As do I. Now, I have a couple of questions:

Q: How is it that a man becomes a "doer of the law?"

Q: Does a "doer of the law" suggest a person who has reached a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?
​

Going from there - I see then that we have TWO contexts for justification. In the first one the person CHANGES from a bad tree to a good tree.

Which is called sanctification, not justification. Scripture is clear that both sanctification and justification result from divine intervention and not from human effort.

In the second justification they are SEEN to be either a bad tree or a good tree (no CHANGE is involved).

Which is called justification (i.e. being declared rightoues because of God's rightousness).

So it appears that you have folded sanctification and justification into one term as though they are completely synonymous.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

How so? By simply quoting Rom 2:13??

Hint. In Gal 3 Paul is not dealing with "peseverance in doing good" in Rom 2:7 he is.

Makes no difference. Justification is justification.

In Gal 3 the problem is that the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance".

And to reject faith is to not be justified. Agreed?

There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.

Yes...because to rely on law is to reject faith in what Christ has accomplished and done for you. A persons works never justify in the sence that it saves you. Works or performance may justify your faith as genuine faith before others, but never God. That is how James is using the term .Your term "future justification" is but a present day reality.

The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.

False...not so! Romans 2 is addressing the hypocracy of the Jew.(Roman 2:1) They had an unfavorable and adverse judgement on the gentile while they themselves where doing the same sins as the gentiles.(3) The Jew thought that because they where Gods special people above those of the earth, they thought they where above all others in this regard and had special favor of God. They wherer taking Gods goodness in light regard.(4) But Paul was quick to warn, they will be judged by the same method they judged the gentile, by performance or works.(3) So Paul told them the truth...God would also judge them with out mercy and grace in Chirst.(6) If so this leads to condemnation because no one is perfect. If and only if they could live a life of perfection in works, performance, and law, then they are infact seeking a life of eternal life. But if not eternal damnation.(7-10) And so that is why Paul said that the doers of the law are justified before God...only if they can do it perfectly in a judgement of works through law. This is called the righteous judgement of God.(5)

No point in mixing Rom 2:7 with Gal 3 because in Romans 2 Paul clearly argues in FAVOR of the good scenarios and against the bad ones.

Yeah...no point in arguing the text if you have the wrong understanding of the text. Kindly check what I wrote with the text. If you are seeking the truth kindly let your ideas go, and start with new eyes as you read.

The truth of the whole matter is that God does not give us what we deserve. We are all horrible sinners in the eyes of Holy God and deserve to die becasue of our sin. But we give glory and honor to God because He judges us with mercy and grace in Christ and declares us judtified and gives us life. No amount of works can do this for us...only by the blood and grace of God.



AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Care to comment on Paul's statements in Romans that "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified" and "a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law?

Since you've highlighted the phrase "doers of the law will be justified," would you care to explain how it is that you believe a man can become a doer of the law? Is there only One who is good or many who are good? Is human righteousness something more than filthy rags? Is the whole world a prisoner of sin, or just some of it? According to Romans, how many have sinned?



I note that you did not answer my question. My question was this:

Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
​

Further, I note that you define salvation as "a new creation." Please provide the Biblical basis for this definition.



As do I. Now, I have a couple of questions:

Q: How is it that a man becomes a "doer of the law?"

Q: Does a "doer of the law" suggest a person who has reached a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?
​

Which is called sanctification, not justification. Scripture is clear that both sanctification and justification result from divine intervention and not from human effort.



Which is called justification (i.e. being declared rightoues because of God's rightousness).

So it appears that you have folded sanctification and justification into one term as though they are completely synonymous.

BFA

Hi BFA...I see you have also noticed it as well. But the funny thing is, Bob has never used the word sanctification in any of his postings that I have read. I wonder if he has any knowledge of what the term sanctification means? It certainly sounds like he is using the meaning of sanctification by his discription and substituting it with the word "future justifcation".

AT

 

[BobRyan]

Care to comment on Paul's statements in Romans that "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified" and "a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law?

Since you've highlighted the phrase "doers of the law will be justified,"

Sure. It is a perfect illustration of the TWO contexts for justification.

The one in Romans 2 is "in the context" of Gospel "perseverance" of the saints.

The one in Romans 3 is clearly pointing to the stand point of the LOST who are not to "persevere in being lost" but are to surrender and accept the Righteousness of Christ in their stead.

would you care to explain how it is that you believe a man can become a doer of the law?

Easy - Paul points us to it in Rom 2:7 "PERSEVER in DOING good"

and again in Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh"

and again in 2Cor 5 "IF anyone is IN Christ he is a NEW Creation -- all things are become new"

and again in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

And again in Gal 2:20 "so it is no longer I who Live but Christ who lives in me and the LIFE I live in the FLESH I live by faith in the Son of God"

And Christ makes it clear in Matt 7 that it is "Good trees that produce good fruits" therefore "by their fruits you shall know them"

and of course then there is John in 1John 2 arguing "these things I write to you that you sin not... if anyone SAYS he knows Christ he ought to WALK as Christ walked"... The list goes on and on - but you get the idea.

Is there only One who is good or many who are good?

There is only one who measures up to the perfect sinless standard of the Law of God.

And then there are those SAINTS in Romans 2 that keep "Persevering in doing good" and their reward according to Paul is "eternal life".

Thus in Romans 2 Paul accounts for BOTH those who will enter heaven AND those who will enter the lake of Fire.

This is then the fair and balanced review HE gives to make his case "God is not partial" not arbitrary not a biased selection in favor of one and against another that determines the two groups.

This is hard to miss in Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BFA

Is human righteousness something more than filthy rags? Is the whole world a prisoner of sin, or just some of it? According to Romans, how many have sinned?

In Romans 3 - ( A place I think you would prefer that we stay with and avoid Romans 2 and 8 and 6 and 11 and ...) we have the case of the LOST and the case of the sinful nature. There it the case is made that no human will ever match the perfect standard of the Law of God. ALL are condemned as sinners as we view the case of the LOST WORLD. And Paul argues in Romans 3 that this is the whole reason we NEED a GOSPEL solution that not ONLY forgives but that also TRANSFORMS so that we do not "ABOLISH the Law by our faith -- oh no! God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Romans 3 brings that point to such a perfect rejoining of the Romans 2 point about those who "Persevere in doing good" Rom 2:7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BFA stated
One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?

Bob said
Because as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".

LOOKING at the tree (i.e. the 2nd Justification)- does not change it.

Why is this such a challenging idea?

BFA resonds
I note that you did not answer my question.

How so?

My question was this:

Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
​

True that was your question - what part of that answer above was unclear?

BFA

Further, I note that you define salvation as "a new creation." Please provide the Biblical basis for this definition.

2Cor 5 "IF anyone is IN Christ he IS a new Creation"
John 3 "Except a man be BORN AGAIN he can not enter the kingdom of heaven"
Romans 2 "He is a Jew who is one INWARDLY and circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit"

Hence Christ can not address the issue of the GOOD trees -- that produce GOOD fruit in Matt 7 as he say "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven"

In the same was as in Romans 2 Paul argues that "Those who Persevere in doing Good" obtain the result "eternal life" and so concludes "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are Just before God but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be JustifIED"

As do I. Now, I have a couple of questions:

Q1: How is it that a man becomes a "doer of the law?"

Q2: Does a "doer of the law" suggest a person who has reached a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?
​

See the previous answer to Q1.

Q2 - I see nothing in Rom 2:13 that suggest that all the "doers have stopped sinning".

Which is called sanctification, not justification. Scripture is clear that both sanctification and justification result from divine intervention and not from human effort.

Call it what you will - in Romans 2:7 Paul refers to it as the Perseverance of the saints who "Persevere in doing good".

The Justification of Romans 3 and Romans 5:1 is that which transforms the lost into the saved. The WALK and the "Perseverance in doing good" of Romans 2:7 is that which is being evaluated in the future justification context of Romans 2:13.

BFA
So it appears that you have folded sanctification and justification into one term as though they are completely synonymous.

Paul says "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE Justified" -

That is pure PAUL in Romans 2 arguing for the Gospel concept of FUTURE justifcation based on that future day of Judgment "On the day when according to my Gospel God WILL judge the secrets of all " Rom 2:16

in Christ,
Bob

 

[BobRyan]

AT

You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.

​

Bob asks
How so? By simply quoting Rom 2:13??

Hint. In Gal 3 Paul is not dealing with "peseverance in doing good" in Rom 2:7 he is. In Gal 3 the problem is that the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance". There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.

The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.

No point in mixing Rom 2:7 with Gal 3 because in Romans 2 Paul clearly argues in FAVOR of the good scenarios and against the bad ones.

bottom line is -- there is no way to mash "DOERS of the LAW WILL be justified" on top of "Justified by faith apart from works" as if they are talking to the same point.

While it may be true that "to a hammer every problem is a nail" in real life you just can't shoehorn different contexts into the same single-idea as if all of life (or all of scripture or even all of Paul) is just one thing.

context is everything.

AT
Makes no difference. Justification is justification.

Well that is what we are discussing - that much is correct.

Bob

In Gal 3 the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance".​

AT
And to reject faith is to not be justified. Agreed?

err... umm "yes".. I thought we were good on that point.

Bob said
There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.

AT
Yes...because to rely on law is to reject faith in what Christ has accomplished and done for you. A persons works never justify in the sence that it saves you.

ahh so we ARE good on that point!

Recall that I said at the start that only "Justification PAST changes salvation status"

Works or performance may justify your faith as genuine faith before others, but never God.

Hmmm the text about "justifying your faith before God" -- I guess I missed that one. Please quote it.

The closest I see is when God himself says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord..." Matt 7

Is this where you paraphrase to mean "claims to have faith"?? If so.. then ok - I agree!

Once again - we may be good on this point as well.

AT

That is how James is using the term .Your term "future justification" is but a present day reality.

Paul places FUTURE justification as a reality at that FUTURE judgment when HE says "WILL be justified... on the DAY WHEN God WILL JUDGE".

Impossible to miss that one in Romans 2.

Bob
The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.

And of course we know that because we SEE in vs 7 the RESULT of that "perseverance in doing GOOD" is as Paul states "eternal life"

It is right there in vs 7 -- all we have to do is read it and not ignore the inconvenient details in the text.

False...not so!

Really? How so?

Why not go ahead and exegete Rom 2:7-8 to show how Paul is really saying "To those who Persevere in doing good -- the lake of fire -- and to those who choose to do evil -- also the lake of fire"

Because I have to say that from the actual reading of the text -- it is just not there.

Also note that in Romans 2 succeeding cases come from BOTH Jews AND Gentiles "to the Jew first and THEN to the Gentile"

And in Romans 2 failing cases also come from BOTH groups not "just from Jews" as we notice again those inconvenient details in Rom 2:7-13.

Romans 2 is addressing the hypocracy of the Jew.(Roman 2:1) They had an unfavorable and adverse judgement on the gentile while they themselves where doing the same sins as the gentiles.(3) The Jew thought that because they where Gods special people above those of the earth, they thought they where above all others in this regard and had special favor of God. They wherer taking Gods goodness in light regard.(4)

I agree that SOME of th failing cases listed there included Jews doing that very thing -- the failing cases for the Gentiles AND the succeeding cases for both JEW AND Gentiles of course had nothing to do with those failures at all.

Again -- no way to delete the other 3 case types from the chapter. You seem to get one of the 4 and then seek to find a way to ignore the other 3.

Why go to such trouble?

AT
If and only if they could live a life of perfection in works, performance, and law, then they are infact seeking a life of eternal life. But if not eternal damnation.(7-10) And so that is why Paul said that the doers of the law are justified before God...only if they can do it perfectly in a judgement of works through law. This is called the righteous judgement of God.(5)

Ahhh yes with the idea being that in vs 2:7 Paul SHOULD have said "to the ones who persevere in doing good -- the lake of fire and ot the ones who did evil - the lake of fire"

But instead of that we get repetition in Romans 2 of success after success not just for Gentiles but also for Jews AND in the case of those success Paul argues that the result is "eternal life".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sometimes it is claimed that in Romans 2 -- you only find examples of failing outside of the Gospel.

My argument is that you find failing outside the gospel in Romans 2 AND you find "perseverance of the saints" examples of succeeding within the Gospel in that chapter.

Now let's "look"

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the Kindness of God leads you to repentance
5 But because of your stubbornness and
unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]

Pretty hard to argue that when we read this we are that successful at deleting all the words in blue.

they are the ones showing the success cases in that chapter.

As for "doing good" --

Luke 6
27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

33. "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

Is Christ arguing "nobody does good to anyone and this will not change until the 2nd coming"?

Is Christ arguing "it does not matter if you do not do good - because I know you are slaves to sin until the 2nd coming. Please don't let this worry your pretty little head"?

What is he arguing here?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In Romans 3 - ( A place I think you would prefer that we stay with and avoid Romans 2 and 8 and 6 and 11 and ...) we have the case of the LOST and the case of the sinful nature. There it the case is made that no human will ever match the perfect standard of the Law of God. ALL are condemned as sinners as we view the case of the LOST WORLD. And Paul argues in Romans 3 that this is the whole reason we NEED a GOSPEL solution that not ONLY forgives but that also TRANSFORMS so that we do not "ABOLISH the Law by our faith -- oh no! God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

OK. Assuming that you have accurately captured the spirit of Romans 3, let's compare and contrast your understanding with that of your denomination:

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)​

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).

“As you are, you would mar all heaven. You are uncultivated, unrefined and unsanctified. There is no place in heaven for such a character as you now possess.” (3 Testimonies, p. 464).

“Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ” (The Great Controversy, p. 623).​

“At this time in the history of the world, we should have but one object in view--to gain eternal life. Every other desire should be subordinate to this. The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God” (Manuscript 119, 1899, p. 1;"Words to Parents," August 21, 1899; 5MR 338.2).

“Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. The sweet voice of mercy is sounding in your ears today, but who can tell if it will sound tomorrow?" (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1892).

"Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life—the same condition that was required of Adam before his Fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden—harmony with God’s law, which is holy, just, and good." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 391)

"Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same as He made in Eden – perfect obedience to His law. In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands - to trample upon My rules of righteousness" (SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p. 1072)

“God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient!” (Review & Herald, Sept. 21, 1886)

“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,—just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,—perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized." (Steps to Christ, p. 62)

“God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden—perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts.” (Faith and Works, p. 52)

“That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight. God help us to render to Him all His law requires.” (Letter 55, Dec. 8, 1886)

"To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe." (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906).

“Redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin; …” (Faith and Works, p. 95)

“Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God, for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity.” (Our Higher Calling, p. 214)

​

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

True that was your question - what part of that answer above was unclear?

It isn't an issue of being unclear, it's an issue of being responsive. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then it doesn't really matter what our current salvation hinges on. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then we cannot possibly have the assurance of salvation that we have been promised and all of the promises of salvation by grace through faith mean nothing.

Hence Christ can not address the issue of the GOOD trees -- that produce GOOD fruit in Matt 7 as he say "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven"

There is no question that the Spirit brings forth good fruit in justified persons. The question is whether man does anything--either today or at some point in the future--to earn or merit his justification or his salvation? Your responses seem to indicate that man will one day need to earn the right to maintain his status as a justified person. Correct?

See the previous answer to Q1.

What previous answer? How does a man become a doer of the law? Is man capable of goodness?

Q2 - I see nothing in Rom 2:13 that suggest that all the "doers have stopped sinning".

Per my separate post in this same thread, your denomination seems to place a high premium on man's need and ability to stop sinning.

Call it what you will - in Romans 2:7 Paul refers to it as the Perseverance of the saints who "Persevere in doing good".

Because of the Spirit who sanctifies them.

BFA

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

In Romans 3 - ( A place I think you would prefer that we stay with and avoid Romans 2 and 8 and 6 and 11 and ...) we have the case of the LOST and the case of the sinful nature. There it the case is made that no human will ever match the perfect standard of the Law of God. ALL are condemned as sinners as we view the case of the LOST WORLD. And Paul argues in Romans 3 that this is the whole reason we NEED a GOSPEL solution that not ONLY forgives but that also TRANSFORMS so that we do not "ABOLISH the Law by our faith -- oh no! God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
​

OK. Assuming that you have accurately captured the spirit of Romans 3, let's compare and contrast your understanding with that of your denomination:

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)​

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).

​

Here we have a great example comments speaking to the "Perseverance of the saints" who "persevere in doing good" Rom 2:7 -- and as I stated above - your model only has room for "Romans 3" and the concept of the lost POV regarding the Law of God.

So -- it is instructive that you take these comments about the saints and the walk of the saints in Christ - and apply them to the perspective of the lost -- which is the context of Romans 3.


It also brings up another good point - there are 28 Fundamental Beliefs for SDAs -- not "a million and 8".

in Christ,

Bob
​

 

[BobRyan]

BFA stated
One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?

Bob said
Because as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".

LOOKING at the tree (i.e. the 2nd Justification)- does not change it.

Why is this such a challenging idea?

BFA resonds
I note that you did not answer my question.

Bob
How so?

BFA

My question was this:

Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
​

Bob said
True that was your question - what part of that answer above was unclear?

BFA
It isn't an issue of being unclear, it's an issue of being responsive. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then it doesn't really matter what our current salvation hinges on.

How can salvation 'hinge" on "looking to see if you are a good tree" AS IF a good tree "turns into a bad one" if you look at it?? If the "looking" is not changing your salvation state then how is your salvation status "hinging" on that "looking"???

I don't see how the problem you suggest is even in the equation. It is like saying "my cancer hinges on the Doctor's exam next week" AS if the exam will either give me cancer or the exam will "take away cancer".

Put another way "my health hinges on the doctor's exam" - if he pronounces me healthy -- THEN I am healthy if he says I am terminally ill then I am terminally ill. Some may see the exam that way -- but in fact it is not changing your health at all.

If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then we cannot possibly have the assurance of salvation that we have been promised and all of the promises of salvation by grace through faith mean nothing.

If your salvation hinged on the future Justification such that a lost person could come to that point and turn into a saved person by a demonstration of works -- then you would be right.

If a saved person (a good tree) could be presented at the future justification event and then by that event be transformed into a "bad tree" then again - I think you would have a point.

IF this was a discussion of how this compares to OSAS -- then I would agree that this model is not consistent with OSAS. It is Arminian

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW -- don't you just love how Phil 2:12-16 and James 1:22-27 echo Romans 2:13-16?

We already touched on 1John 2:3-6 parallel with Rom 2:13 -- but that is always fun to compare as well.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Byfaithalone1]

How can salvation 'hinge" on "looking to see if you are a good tree" AS IF a good tree "turns into a bad one" if you look at it??

Because--if I've correctly understood your position--you have connected your ultimate salvation, your status as a justified person at the end of time, with your works.

If the "looking" is not changing your salvation state then how is your salvation status "hinging" on that "looking"???

We are saved by grace through faith. The law is not of faith. Please explain how "looking" at things that can be seen is consistent with faith.

It is like saying "my cancer hinges on the Doctor's exam next week" AS if the exam will either give me cancer or the exam will "take away cancer".

I assert that it is nothing like that. Rather, it is like going to the divine healer and being told that, regardless of any short-term illnesses or tumors you may see, you will ultimately realize all of the benefits of being cancer-free. In such a scenario, do you demonstrate faith in the divine healer if you worry and fret over short-term illness or tumors? If you focus on that which you can see, do you demonstrate faith that the ultimate diagnosis is accurate?

Put another way "my health hinges on the doctor's exam" - if he pronounces me healthy -- THEN I am healthy

What a great analogy for justification. This is exactly what justification is. It is a pronouncement by the divine healer. It isn't based on things you can see. It is based upon a promise.

If your salvation hinged on the future Justification such that a lost person could come to that point and turn into a saved person by a demonstration of works -- then you would be right.

According to the SDA denomination, there will come a day when a man's salvation is contingent upon his demonstration of good works. In fact, the SDA denomination teaches that man must reach a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Since this is true, it matters little whether my current salvation is based upon grace when my ultimate salvation is based upon my works. It is for this reason that I conclude that the gospel promulgated by the SDA denomination is "another gospel." Your posts seem to indicate that you are in full agreement with the presentation of the gospel offered by the SDA denomination. If I've misunderstood, please clarify.

If a saved person (a good tree) could be presented at the future justification event and then by that event be transformed into a "bad tree" then again - I think you would have a point.

At what point must a tree become a good tree in order to be considered worthy of salvation?

IF this was a discussion of how this compares to OSAS -- then I would agree that this model is not consistent with OSAS. It is Arminian

One need not espouse OSAS in order to take issue with the things you have written. Your posts have gone beyond arminianism and are approaching semi-pelagianism.

BFA