Romans 2 shows both succeeding and Failing examples

[BobRyan]

Sometimes it is claimed that in Romans 2 -- you only find examples of failing outside of the Gospel.

My argument is that you find failing outside the gospel in Romans 2 AND ou find "perseverance of the saints" examples of succeeding within the Gospel in that chapter.

Let's see.

Ask yourself these questions as we go through the chapter

1. Do you see "Gospel" mentioned here?
2. Do you see "repentance" mentioned here?
3. Do you see "just Jews condemned" here?
4. Do you see "just Gentiles" getting eternal life here?
5. Does God say he is partial to Gentile or Jew here?

6. Do you see a future judgment mentioned here?
7. Do you find it to be based on works?? DOERS of the LAW?
8. Is “Justification” mentioned here in the context of the very “Gospel” that Paul preached?


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the Kindness of God leads you to repentance
5 But because of your stubbornness and
unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font], wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

Sometimes it is claimed that in Romans 2 -- you only find examples of failing outside of the Gospel.

My argument is that you find failing outside the gospel in Romans 2 AND ou find "perseverance of the saints" examples of succeeding within the Gospel in that chapter.

Let's see.

Ask yourself these questions as we go through the chapter

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']1. Do you see "Gospel" mentioned here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']2. Do you see "repentance" mentioned here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']3. Do you see "just Jews condemned" here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']4. Do you see "just Gentiles" getting eternal life here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']5. Does God say he is partial to Gentile or Jew here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']6. Do you see a future judgment mentioned here?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']7. Do you find it to be based on works?? DOERS of the LAW?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']8. Is “Justification” mentioned here in the context of the very “Gospel” that Paul preached?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Rom 2[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']kindness of God leads you to repentance[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']? [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']5 But because of your stubbornness and [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']unrepentant heart[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] you are storing up wrath [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God, [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']6 who [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']: [/b][/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']immortality, eternal life[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']; [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'], wrath and indignation[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']. [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']9 There will be [b[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']]tribulation and distress[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] for every soul of man who [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']does evil[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/b], of the Jew first [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']and also of the Greek,[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']10 but [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']glory and honor[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']also to the Greek[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']. [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Rom 2[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']11 For there is no partiality with God. [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']doers of the Law will be justified[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']. [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']15 in that they show the [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']work of the Law written in their hearts[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'], their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']16 on the day [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']when, according to my GOSPEL[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'], God will [/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']judge[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] the secrets of men through Christ Jesus[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']. [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
(I will fix the fonts in a minute)

in Christ,

Bob

But what I don't see is two justifications in that chapter. Justification can never be by works...do you agree?

AT

 

[BobRyan]

In James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

In Romans 2 "for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge".

I think it is there.

This is why I note that the justification you have in Romans 2 is future is by works and is "gospel".

And also the justification you see in Romans 5:1 is in the past - is apart from works and is also part of the "Gospel".

Very often you find people either embracing the Romans 5:1 (and Romans 3) concept of Justification past -- while hoping everyone will ignore the James 2 and Romans 2 Justification "future" teaching in scripture -- or in some case you find them embracing the Romans 2 and James 2 "future justification" version and hoping that all will ignore the Romans 5:1 "justification past" teaching.

I prefer a doctrinal model that freely accepts and embraces BOTH justification teachings.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

In James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

We can discuss the dynamics of the passage, but for now I ask of you...is works the foundation of the justification here? Why or Why not?

In Romans 2 "for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge".

Another question of you...why or what propelled Paul to say " for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge"

This is why I note that the justification you have in Romans 2 is future is by works and is "gospel".

Well if that is true, then Paul the apostile had a problem. He completely had something else in mind over in Gal chapter 3 when he wrote:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:6-12 (KJV)

And also the justification you see in Romans 5:1 is in the past - is apart from works and is also part of the "Gospel".

Very often you find people either embracing the Romans 5:1 (and Romans 3) concept of Justification past -- while hoping everyone will ignore the James 2 and Romans 2 Justification "future" teaching in scripture -- or in some case you find them embracing the Romans 2 and James 2 "future justification" version and hoping that all will ignore the Romans 5:1 "justification past" teaching.

I prefer a doctrinal model that freely accepts and embraces BOTH justification teachings.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob...what you are teaching and embracing is another form of legalism. You are basically teaching that we are saved by faith alone, but kept saved by works. This is why you embrace 2 justifications...the first to save apart from law, the second to keep saved by performance. It would be better for you if you understood the context of the text rather than proof texting.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

I prefer a doctrinal model that freely accepts and embraces BOTH justification teachings.

This is the flaw in your understanding...there is but one justification of God and its totally free from works. Justification has lasting results into the future.

AT

 

[BobRyan]

James 2 "you see then that man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone"

Bob simply affirms the existence and significance of James' statement

Originally Posted by BobRyan

In James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".
​

AT
We can discuss the dynamics of the passage, but for now I ask of you...is works the foundation of the justification here? Why or Why not?

Works is key to the "justification future" but not justification past. Recall the details -- in justification past salvation status "changes" from lost to saved.

in Justification "future" we see that the issue is about "Perseverance of the saints" as the mechanism for SHOWING the reality of an existing "good tree" or "bad tree". Showing the tree -- does not CHANGE the tree.

Bob said

In Romans 2 "for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge".
​

​

AT
Another question of you...why or what propelled Paul to say " for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge"

It is his statement in vs 10 that "God is NOT partial" he shows that in both the SUCCEEDING cases and in the Failing cases it is not the "partiality of God" that is making the difference.

Bob said

This is why I note that the justification you have in Romans 2 is future is by works and is "gospel".
​

AT
Well if that is true, then Paul the apostile had a problem.

How so? Having TWO contexts for justification? One related to past-justification (subjective, individual, salvific) and one that is future-justification (corporate, objective, and based on discovery and data) which follows the same model as Job 1 and 2.

AT
He completely had something else in mind over in Gal chapter 3 when he wrote:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:6-12 (KJV)

Well you are right about one thing - Gal 3 is not talking about the subject of Romans 2. You have that much correct.

Bob said

And also the justification you see in Romans 5:1 is in the past - is apart from works and is also part of the "Gospel".

Very often you find people either embracing the Romans 5:1 (and Romans 3) concept of Justification past -- while hoping everyone will ignore the James 2 and Romans 2 Justification "future" teaching in scripture -- or in some case you find them embracing the Romans 2 and James 2 "future justification" version and hoping that all will ignore the Romans 5:1 "justification past" teaching.

I prefer a doctrinal model that freely accepts and embraces BOTH justification teachings.

Hence my insistance on comparing Romans 2 to James 2 -- and comparing Romans 3, Romans 5 and Gal 3 as all speaking to the same topics respectively.

Bob...what you are teaching and embracing is another form of legalism.

How so?

AT
You are basically teaching that we are saved by faith alone, but kept saved by works.

Well lest we be jumping off the cliff of Cavlinism in that statement -- it is clear that I do not accept OSAS at all -- primarily because I am Arminian. So if you are trying to point to that as a difference then - granted. I fully accept "Perseverance of the saints" while 4 Point Calvinists flat out reject it in favor of OSAS.

That said - You have missed a not so subtle detail in my argument. The future justification is not salvific. It does not change your salvation status -- it merely shows what it is. "Seeing the good tree" does not "change the tree into a good tree or a bad one". Here is where I would suggest that your view could benefit from a close comparison of Romans 2 to Matt 7.

AT
This is why you embrace 2 justifications...the first to save apart from law, the second to keep saved by performance.

Again -- because I don't know your background -- I can't tell if you are trying to deny Matt 18 regarding "forgiveness revoked" or if you simply mean to affirm that all through the Christian walk - our acceptance with God is "by grace through faith in Christ" as we continue to rely on the righteousness of Christ to cover that saint that is in fact "persevering in doing good" Rom 2:7.

In a previous Q&A on this point someone asked in or during the "IJ are we still saved by grace through faiith" and my answer was "yes" -- because in each case it is only the righteouness of Christ that can measure up to the perfect standard of God's continuing authorotative Law.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
And also the justification you see in Romans 5:1 is in the past - is apart from works and is also part of the "Gospel".

Very often you find people either embracing the Romans 5:1 (and Romans 3) concept of Justification past -- while hoping everyone will ignore the James 2 and Romans 2 Justification "future" teaching in scripture -- or in some case you find them embracing the Romans 2 and James 2 "future justification" version and hoping that all will ignore the Romans 5:1 "justification past" teaching.

I prefer a doctrinal model that freely accepts and embraces BOTH justification teachings.

This is the flaw in your understanding...there is but one justification of God and its totally free from works. Justification has lasting results into the future.

AT

As I say - I prefer a model that freely accepts BOTH the Matt 7, Rom 2, James 2 statements on Justification future AND the Rom 3, Rom 5, Gal 3 statements on Justification past.

you seem to prefer the one that ignores the Matt 7, Rom 2, James 2 set.

I would argue that this leaves a gap in your Gospel model.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

Works is key to the "justification future" but not justification past. Recall the details -- in justification past salvation status "changes" from lost to saved.

Kindly answer my question please. Is works the foundation of justification?

"you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Where in that passage do you see a future or past reference to justifcation in that text? You are adding to this passage something that is not there.

in Justification "future" we see that the issue is about "Perseverance of the saints" as the mechanism for SHOWING the reality of an existing "good tree" or "bad tree". Showing the tree -- does not CHANGE the tree.

In Gods declaration of justification, the issue is always Christ. The only thing that has changed is our status before God. We are still sinful people, but only passed from death into life before Him in Christ alone. So I ask of you again....what is the foundation of our Justification?

It is his statement in vs 10 that "God is NOT partial" he shows that in both the SUCCEEDING cases and in the Failing cases it is not the "partiality of God" that is making the difference.

But you have not bothered to answer my question. You are dodging the question. "why or what propelled Paul to say " for it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God -- it is the doers of the Law that WILL be justified... on the day when according to my gospel God will judge"

How so? Having TWO contexts for justification? One related to past-justification (subjective, individual, salvific) and one that is future-justification (corporate, objective, and based on discovery and data) which follows the same model as Job 1 and 2.

Ok. Then I suggest you give me the two passages that show the future and the past justifications that you are teaching. Up until now you have not shown me the passages that clearly suggest what you are teaching. So as we like to say...show scripture please.

Well you are right about one thing - Gal 3 is not talking about the subject of Romans 2. You have that much correct.

Well above you said Romans 2 was a future justification. So let us take a look at the Gal text.

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:6-12 (KJV)

(1)What is verse 8...future justification or past justification?

(2)How does Paul say a man is justified?

(3)What happens to a man who works?

Hence my insistance on comparing Romans 2 to James 2 -- and comparing Romans 3, Romans 5 and Gal 3 as all speaking to the same topics respectively.

Wheres your proof? Kindly show how they are different or alike please. Kindly use scripture to make your points.

How so?

First off, you must understand the following passage in context in order to understand Pauls arguments. I suggest you read it and read it well before you concider the remaining of the chapter.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6[/font] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:1-6 (KJV)

Now heres another question for you...why is God rendering according to their deeds?

After you concider that question, concider this.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20[/font] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)

You asked how so? Its becasue in the past and future, and present, justification is by faith alone and not by works of any kind. So basically you are preaching a works gospel in your peddling of your own private interpretation. There is nothing that you can possibly do to gain salvation. I don't know if you are under a good pastor teacher to help you with these things, but you aught to be.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.11
Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)

Now that we where justified by Christs blood, we continue to be, and shall be justified and saved by His life. So we where, are, and shall be justified all by faith alone apart from works of the law. Your understanding falls short in this regard. I hope you give up you idea that a man must perform in order to gain heaven.

Well lest we be jumping off the cliff of Cavlinism in that statement -- it is clear that I do not accept OSAS at all -- primarily because I am Arminian. So if you are trying to point to that as a difference then - granted. I fully accept "Perseverance of the saints" while 4 Point Calvinists flat out reject it in favor of OSAS.

Nope...not me. I believe a person can fall from Gods saving grace.

[quoteThat said - You have missed a not so subtle detail in my argument. The future justification is not salvific. It does not change your salvation status -- it merely shows what it is. "Seeing the good tree" does not "change the tree into a good tree or a bad one". Here is where I would suggest that your view could benefit from a close comparison of Romans 2 to Matt 7.[/quote]

And I suggest you stop using words like "future justification" Because justification is always presently with us. It would be wise for you to use the correct term to stop the confussion in your posting. Its not "future justification"...the bible never makes that distinction. The correct word you are looking for is sanctification. What you are refering to is also know in theological circles as "progressive sanctification".

Again -- because I don't know your background -- I can't tell if you are trying to deny Matt 18 regarding "forgiveness revoked" or if you simply mean to affirm that all through the Christian walk - our acceptance with God is "by grace through faith in Christ" as we continue to rely on the righteousness of Christ to cover that saint that is in fact "persevering in doing good" Rom 2:7.

I am a former SDA of about 20 years. I do believe that all through our christianity it's by grace through faith alone. We don't always do good.

In a previous Q&A on this point someone asked in or during the "IJ are we still saved by grace through faiith" and my answer was "yes" -- because in each case it is only the righteouness of Christ that can measure up to the perfect standard of God's continuing authorotative Law.

And I would say you are correct, but not about the IJ. I don't believe in such.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

As I say - I prefer a model that freely accepts BOTH the Matt 7, Rom 2, James 2 statements on Justification future AND the Rom 3, Rom 5, Gal 3 statements on Justification past.

you seem to prefer the one that ignores the Matt 7, Rom 2, James 2 set.

I would argue that this leaves a gap in your Gospel model.

in Christ,

Bob

I prefer and believe all of what the bible says about justification by grace through faith alone. I just don't subscribe to what you are teaching. However if you ask me does the bible teach sanctification, I will tell you yes.

AT

 

[BobRyan]

AT
Again -- because I don't know your background -- I can't tell if you are trying to deny Matt 18 regarding "forgiveness revoked" or if you simply mean to affirm that all through the Christian walk - our acceptance with God is "by grace through faith in Christ" as we continue to rely on the righteousness of Christ to cover that saint that is in fact "persevering in doing good" Rom 2:7.

Bob
I am a former SDA of about 20 years. I do believe that all through our christianity it's by grace through faith alone. We don't always do good.

Here then we can agree as long as we just stick with texts like Romans 5:1 and Romans 3 and Gal 3 -- Because I am completely with you on the part of the discussion where we all admit that all through the Christian walk the only righteousness that matches the perfect standard of God's Law -- is Christs "alone"!.

And when a lost person comes to Christ they come by grace through faith "alone".

And as they walk the Christian walk "by the Spirit putting to death the deads of the flesh" Rom 8 they do it via "Christ in me" Gal 2:20 for "in my own self dwelleth no good thing" (speaking of the natural sinful nature of man)


But if we get to the "other" part of that same discussion -- then that is where I fully choose to embrace texts speaking of future justification EVEN the way James speaks of it ("justified by works and not by faith alone" to use HIS words) rather than having to avoid Matt 7 and James 2 and Romans 2 and Ezek 18 and Matt 18 and John 15 and Romans 11 and 1Cor 9 and .. (well you get the idea).

It is not "mere coincidence" that these are all the SAME texts that I use when I am discussing the errors of OSAS with someone who clings to that tradition no matter what scripture says. I am glad to hear you are not considering adopting the man made tradition of OSAS - but I have to say we are still talking about the "same" texts when covering the grounds were we diffeer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

AT
Ok. Then I suggest you give me the two passages that show the future and the past justifications that you are teaching.

PAST Justification "example"
"Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1

FUTURE Justification "example"
"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED"

Notice that the past justification is "By faith alone"

Notice that future justification is based on evaluation of the fruit IN the life -- what the person DOES reveals what the "tree that is" or as Paul says in Romans 2:7 "PERSEVERING in doing GOOD"

BOTH deal with Gospel "Justification"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

Here then we can agree as long as we just stick with texts like Romans 5:1 and Romans 3 and Gal 3 -- Because I am completely with you on the part of the discussion where we all admit that all through the Christian walk the only righteousness that matches the perfect standard of God's Law -- is Christs "alone"!.

And when a lost person comes to Christ they come by grace through faith "alone".

And as they walk the Christian walk "by the Spirit putting to death the deads of the flesh" Rom 8 they do it via "Christ in me" Gal 2:20 for "in my own self dwelleth no good thing" (speaking of the natural sinful nature of man)


But if we get to the "other" part of that same discussion -- then that is where I fully choose to embrace texts speaking of future justification EVEN the way James speaks of it ("justified by works and not by faith alone" to use HIS words) rather than having to avoid Matt 7 and James 2 and Romans 2 and Ezek 18 and Matt 18 and John 15 and Romans 11 and 1Cor 9 and .. (well you get the idea).

It is not "mere coincidence" that these are all the SAME texts that I use when I am discussing the errors of OSAS with someone who clings to that tradition no matter what scripture says. I am glad to hear you are not considering adopting the man made tradition of OSAS - but I have to say we are still talking about the "same" texts when covering the grounds were we diffeer.

in Christ,

Bob

Well I'll ask you again. When understanding James chapter 2, is the works the foundation of our justification?

AT

 

[BobRyan]

At

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:6-12 (KJV)

(1)What is verse 8...future justification or past justification?

Past.

AT

(2)How does Paul say a man is justified?

Depends on whether you are quoting Rom 2:13 or or Gal 3. Which one do you want to talk about because Paul has shown himself capable of speaking to a number of subjects?

(3)What happens to a man who works?

In Rom 2:7 and 13 "persevering in doing good" -- he is justified.

But if the works are "works apart from faith" then he remains lost because by the works of the law shall no man be justified.

See - taking in all the texts that speak to the subject is necessary to get the full picture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well I'll ask you again. When understanding James chapter 2, is the works the foundation of our justification?

AT

"you see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone" James 2:

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works[b/], and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "" AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,'' and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

This is the Matt 7 principle "by their fruits you shall know them" speaking of the good tree and the bad tree.

James argues that in future justification - it is the works the demonstrate the reality of living faith.

Bob

 

[Adventtruth]

PAST Justification "example"
"Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1

You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.

[FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]1[/FONT] O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth--before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]2[/FONT] this only do I wish to learn from you--by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]3[/FONT] so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end? [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]4[/FONT] so many things did ye suffer in vain! if, indeed, even in vain. [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]5[/FONT] He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you--by works of law or by the hearing of faith is it?
Gal 3:1-5 (YLT)

Pauls argument is that you can't be justified and then try to continue to be justified through works. You also have a flawed understanding of the James text. In context James is only pointing out that the works prove the genuines of your faith. Works testify of your faith in the Lord.

FUTURE Justification

"example"
"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED"

Notice that the past justification is "By faith alone"

Notice that future justification is based on evaluation of the fruit IN the life -- what the person DOES reveals what the "tree that is" or as Paul says in Romans 2:7 "PERSEVERING in doing GOOD"

BOTH deal with Gospel "Justification"

in Christ,

Bob[/quote]

This is where you need to understand this chapter . Paul is making remarks based upon the actions of the Jews who where judgmental. In a nut shell he was giving them judgment by works. Besides who is it that does good?

If you like you and I can go through Romans chapter 2 together line by line...are you game?

AT

 

[BobRyan]

BFA on the same subject of Romans 2...

Since you've raised it, let's consider what Romans 2-3 says:

Romans 2

"1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

[... remainder of Romans 2 is quoted verbatim.]

Romans 3
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

[... ALL of Chapter 3 quoted verbatim]

20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?

Becuase as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".

LOOKING at the tree - does not change it.

Why is this such a challenging idea?

If man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, why conclude that man is justified by faith and the works of the law?

I just conclude that "the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 is in fact a "true" statement.

Going from there - I see then that we have TWO contexts for justification.

In the first one the person CHANGES from a bad tree to a good tree. In the second justification they are SEEN to be either a bad tree or a good tree (no CHANGE is involved).

It is really that simple.

in Christ,

Bob


[/quote]

 

[Adventtruth]

Ok Bob. Let me present the scripture to you, and then I will give its interpretation, and ask you if you agree.

"1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

In the above passage (Rom 2:1) Paul is stating that the Jews, who judge others for there wrong actions, have no excuse seeing they pass judgement on others while doing the same thing. His point being they are just as guilty and have no excuse for their own actions. Do you agree?

 

[Adventtruth]

2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things

Here Paul is mentioning that God judges those who also do such things as judge others. This judgment is without mercy or grace and is outside of Christ, and is by works, deeds or performance.

Do you agree?

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Here Paul ask them...as if pointing to their common senses. He ask, if they are judging others with condemnation, do they think they will not be judged of God in the same way?

Do you agree?

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Here Paul asked them if they are neglecting the Goodness of God, that they perverted it, took it for granted. They seemed not to understand that His goodness leads to repentence of sin. If they did, and if they regarded Gods goodness, judgment would have been with grace and mercy in Chirst. But that was not the case, the Jews regarded not His goodness and where in danger of a judgment by performance void of grace.

Do you agree?

AT