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Romans 14:5-6

Isabelle30900

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Paul had had conversations /arguments with Peter on many subjects Among which circumcisions, food, sabbath…He was to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Here, in this passage, he s talking to the romans. Just like Christ, he hasn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. The new alliance, in Jesus, is to everyone. The old ones were for the hebrews but now we have to understand that we’re beyond the law, we re under the Grace! When we have Christ in us, we don’t need to follow the different steps that were valid during the sanctuary times. Jesus has put an end to it And gave us a greater commandment “Honor God and Love your neighbor as yourself”! (It s a perfect commandment including the 10). Honor God, keep the commandments and the faith in Jesus…. Remember, what you put in your mouth goes down to the ground but what goes out defiles you.
I don’t work on sabbaths, I study His Word but, I, from now on, will go to listen to preachers on Sundays because I need to get to a higher spiritual level.
There are many ways to respect the 3 angels message
 

SabbathBlessings

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Paul had had conversations /arguments with Peter on many subjects Among which circumcisions, food, sabbath…He was to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Here, in this passage, he s talking to the romans. Just like Christ, he hasn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. The new alliance, in Jesus, is to everyone. The old ones were for the hebrews but now we have to understand that we’re beyond the law, we re under the Grace! When we have Christ in us, we don’t need to follow the different steps that were valid during the sanctuary times. Jesus has put an end to it And gave us a greater commandment “Honor God and Love your neighbor as yourself”! (It s a perfect commandment including the 10). Honor God, keep the commandments and the faith in Jesus…. Remember, what you put in your mouth goes down to the ground but what goes out defiles you.
I don’t work on sabbaths, I study His Word but, I, from now on, will go to listen to preachers on Sundays because I need to get to a higher spiritual level.
There are many ways to respect the 3 angels message
Thanks for coming over here to ask your question on Romans. Just to clarify are you believing this teaching means we don't have to keep the Sabbath and can choose our day and can eat what we want to? Just trying to get an understanding of your interpterion, you mention keeping the Ten Commandments which obviously includes the 4th commandment, so just want to get a better understanding of what you believe this passage means. Thanks
 
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Isabelle30900

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Thanks for coming over here to ask your question on Romans. Just to clarify are you believing this teaching means we don't have to keep the Sabbath and can choose our day and can eat what we want to? Just trying to get an understanding of your interpterion, you mention keeping the Ten Commandments which obviously includes the 4th commandment, so just want to get a better understanding of what you believe this passage means. Thanks
Correct! Sabbath is rest in God. You can rest on Monday, Wednesday or whatever. The most important thing is your relation with God And walk with Jesus. About food, I would advise you to read 1 Corinthians 8: 7-9. Ellen G White mentions not to eat certain food but totally forgets that there’s more to her list : choked animals and blood. Remember that table cloth that was shown to Peter And how he misunderstood its meaning?
I follow the 10 commandments so, as I told you, I keep the sabbath but I don’t think that this or not eating pork is what’s going to save me… otherwise it would be works, right?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Correct! Sabbath is rest in God. You can rest on Monday, Wednesday or whatever. The most important thing is your relation with God And walk with Jesus. About food, I would advise you to read 1 Corinthians 8: 7-9. Ellen G White mentions not to eat certain food but totally forgets that there’s more to her list : choked animals and blood. Remember that table cloth that was shown to Peter And how he misunderstood its meaning?
I follow the 10 commandments so, as I told you, I keep the sabbath but I don’t think that this or not eating pork is what’s going to save me… otherwise it would be works, right?

I agree the most important thing is our relationship with Jesus. If we love Jesus with all our heart, mind and soul, we would want to obey Him, not to be saved, but because obedience to Him through our love and faith is a consequence of salvation, not a means to it. John 14:14 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12

Agree, keeping the Sabbath or not eating pork won't save us, nor will keeping any law, only the blood of Christ can save us through faith and if we have faith in Jesus we would want to live how He asks us to because we trust Him with all our heart that He knows whats best for us.

Regarding the Sabbath rest, that is not God, the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

The Sabbath commandment that is God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18 said we are to rest from work and labors and keep the Sabbath day holy, which God said is the seventh day. All other days are for works and labors Exo 20:8-11

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not the He is the Sabbath. Jesus is the rest-giver, He gives us rest from our heavy works and labors but when we rest in Christ we also keep the Sabbath commandment.

Hebrews speaks of two rests, not one. One that we receive through faith and the Sabbath rest which is on the seventh day.

Heb 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest,

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also (in addition to so another rest) ceased from his works as God did from His.

When did God ask us to cease from our works?

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

When did God cease from His works?

This very passage tells us
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place (Mt Sinai) of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

So to enter His rest one also rests on the seventh day i.e. keeping the Sabbath

Why it says

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

And the rest in this verse translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Resting in Christ is resting from sin. In Christ rest no one is in rebellion to Him or His commandments, they just have peace. :)

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Regarding Romans 14:5-6

First, lets look at the words of Jesus

This is what Jesus said in His own Words what happens when we don't keep the Sabbath. Jesus changes not.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have [g]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them

So lets look at what Paul taught in Romans under this context


Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;

Is Paul teaching what God esteems over all other days, the Sabbath is the seventh day, My holy day, the Holy day of the Lord thy God and we profane Him when we hide our eyes from our obedience to God when He is trying to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify us Eze 20:12 because man can't do that on their own Isa 66:17

They are not discussing if they should or not should not obey God's commandments, they are discussing days man esteems over other days. In our time we have days that people regard as holy days Christmas and Easter, some people believe they have pagan roots, so people today dispute these days if we should keep or not keep. Thats is like what Paul is discussing, what man esteems, not what God esteemed, which God already spoke in His personal Testimony Exo 31:18 why the Sabbath isn't mentioned once in all of Romans because its a dispute about man-made ideas, not God-given commandments.

I hope this helps. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Correct! Sabbath is rest in God. You can rest on Monday, Wednesday or whatever. The most important thing is your relation with God And walk with Jesus. About food, I would advise you to read 1 Corinthians 8: 7-9. Ellen G White mentions not to eat certain food but totally forgets that there’s more to her list : choked animals and blood. Remember that table cloth that was shown to Peter And how he misunderstood its meaning?
I follow the 10 commandments so, as I told you, I keep the sabbath but I don’t think that this or not eating pork is what’s going to save me… otherwise it would be works, right?
Regarding EGW and cooking with blood I know she speaks about cooking foods well but perhaps @BobRyan or @Freth might be able to address this better than I can.

@BobRyan @Freth please meet my new friend Isabelle. She is an SDA but is considering leaving the church due to some questions she had about Paul writings and the way SDA's interpret them and some questions on EGW in regards to how food are prepared etc. If you can help out I would greatly appreciate it.

Happy Sabbath all and God bless!
 
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reddogs

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Correct! Sabbath is rest in God. You can rest on Monday, Wednesday or whatever. The most important thing is your relation with God And walk with Jesus. About food, I would advise you to read 1 Corinthians 8: 7-9. Ellen G White mentions not to eat certain food but totally forgets that there’s more to her list : choked animals and blood. Remember that table cloth that was shown to Peter And how he misunderstood its meaning?
I follow the 10 commandments so, as I told you, I keep the sabbath but I don’t think that this or not eating pork is what’s going to save me… otherwise it would be works, right?
Well, God gave us the Sabbath for a specific purpose, the other six were to do our work.

Exodus 20:9
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
 
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Freth

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Regarding EGW and cooking with blood I know she speaks about cooking foods well but perhaps @BobRyan or @Freth might be able to address this better than I can.

@BobRyan @Freth please meet my new friend Isabelle. She is an SDA but is considering leaving the church due to some questions she had about Paul writings and the way SDA's interpret them and some questions on EGW in regards to how food are prepared etc. If you can help out I would greatly appreciate it.

Happy Sabbath all and God bless!

This pretty much sums up what she had to say about meat eating.

Ellen:

The perfection of Christian character is attainable. As we approach the close of this earth’s history, we will find that the whole world is becoming a lazar house of disease. The transgression of the law of God is bringing the sure result. { KC 32.1 }​
I present the word of the Lord God of Israel. Because of transgression, the curse of God has come upon the earth itself, upon the cattle and upon all flesh. Human beings are suffering the result of their own course of action in departing from the commandments of God. The beasts also suffer from under the curse. { KC 32.2 }​
Meat eating should not come into the prescriptions for any invalids from any physician from among those who understand these things. Disease in cattle is making meat eating a dangerous matter. The Lord’s curse is upon the earth, upon man, upon beasts, upon the fish of the sea; and as transgression becomes almost universal, the curse will be permitted to become as broad and as deep as the transgression. Disease is contracted by the use of meat. The diseased flesh of these dead carcasses is sold in the market places, and disease among men is the sure result. { KC 32.3 }​
The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch or taste the flesh of dead animals. Then let not these things be prescribed by any physician who has a knowledge of the truth for this time. There is no safety in the eating of the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of cows will also be excluded from the diet of God’s commandment keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to eat anything that comes from the animal creation. Those who take God at His word, and obey His commands with their whole heart will be blessed. He will be their shield of protection. But the Lord will not be trifled with. Distrust, disobedience, and alienation from God’s will and way will place the sinner in a position where the Lord cannot give him His divine favor. { KC 32.4 }​
Again I refer to the diet question: We cannot now do as we have ventured to do in the past in regard to meat-eating. It has always been a curse to the human family, but now it is made particularly so in the curse which God has pronounced upon the herds of the field, because of man’s transgression and sins. The disease upon animals is becoming more and more common, and our only safety now is in leaving meat entirely alone. The most aggravated diseases are now prevalent, and the very last thing that physicians who are enlightened should do, is to advise patients to eat meat. It is in eating meat so largely in the country that men and women are becoming demoralized, their blood corrupted and disease planted in their system. Because of meat-eating, many die, and they do not understand the cause. If the truth were known, it would bear the testimony it was the flesh of animals that passed through death. The thought of feeding upon dead flesh is repulsive, but there is something in meat-eating: we partake of diseased, dead flesh, and this sows its seed of corruption in the human organism. { KC 32.5 }​

Regarding pork specifically... If what is classified as clean meat is cursed and can cause disease, how much more so is pork which God labeled unclean? Something to think about.

I spent thirty years away from the faith. During that time I ate enough pork for a lifetime. I gorged myself on it for decades. I didn't seem to suffer from disease (or so I thought).

Every meal centered around meat. The sides (vegetables) were of much less importance. In fact, I was addicted to meat. I had to have meat with every meal, and a bigger portion of meat than anything else.

When I decided to go vegetarian I saw how much of a hold meat has on man. Most restaurant meals are centered around a large meat portion and small vegetable portions. It was challenging to go to a restaurant and put together a meal that didn't have meat in it, as most restaurants are meat-centric.

As a vegetarian I feel better than I ever did eating meat.

If what Ellen says is true then eating meat comes with the risk of disease, and it gets worse as we get closer to the end. She said there is no safety in eating meat, which means in the least we are rolling the dice, in the most we are ensuring disease.
 
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Freth

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If you think about it, the body does its best to communicate with us concerning diet.
  • Heartburn and acid reflux.
  • Digestive issues: Upset stomach, violent bowel movements, IBS, etc.
  • Back pain, joint pain, inflammation.
  • Bloated feeling.
  • Feeling sluggish, bogged down or tired.
I suffered from all of these issues, not just one. They are surely signs of disease setting in, if not diseases themselves.

I have noticed a big difference in how I feel, after going mostly vegetarian. Before my diet change I had chronic ankle pain from an old sprain (early 1990's). It would "resprain" itself and I often walked with a limp because of it. My lower back is worn out. It was causing me severe pain, to the point where I couldn't stand up straight. Both of these have subsided to a great degree.

My ankle no longer bothers me and my back only has minor pain now, if at all. My digestive system changed as well. I used to have chronic diarrhea because of my diet, and I often had to eat antacids like they were candy. My energy was always diminished, and I felt like doing nothing.

Eating vegetarian I feel normal. I don't have ups and downs. Everything is consistent, and my body isn't screaming at me in countless ways that something is wrong.
 
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BobRyan

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Correct! Sabbath is rest in God. You can rest on Monday, Wednesday or whatever. The most important thing is your relation with God And walk with Jesus. About food, I would advise you to read 1 Corinthians 8: 7-9. Ellen G White mentions not to eat certain food but totally forgets that there’s more to her list : choked animals and blood. Remember that table cloth that was shown to Peter And how he misunderstood its meaning?
I follow the 10 commandments so, as I told you, I keep the sabbath but I don’t think that this or not eating pork is what’s going to save me… otherwise it would be works, right?

Ex 20:7 says that we are not to take God's name in vain - but that is not what saves us.

We are saved by grace through faith- not of works Eph 2:8-10

Acts 15 does talk about avoiding blood, things strangled etc - just like Lev 17. Not sure if that is what you are talking about.

Ellen White prefers that SDAs be vegetarian.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul had had conversations /arguments with Peter on many subjects Among which circumcisions, food, sabbath…He was to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Here, in this passage, he s talking to the romans.
I don't know about Paul and Peter having arguments - but there is the case in Gal 2 where Paul corrects Peter on something to do with eating with gentiles - but then being a hypocrite about it when certain people from James show up.

I agree that in Rom 14 - Paul is talking to Romans, of which some are Jews (see Rom 2) and some are gentiles (see Rom 11)
Just like Christ, he hasn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
amen .

This is his position when it comes to "do not take God's name in vain" and "do now worship other gods" as well.
The new alliance, in Jesus, is to everyone. The old ones were for the hebrews
Gal 1:6-9 - only one gospel in all of time
Gal 3:8 that one and only gospel "preached to Abraham"

Heb 4:1-2 "we have had the gospel preached to us just as they also"

Acts 10:42 "all the prophets proclaimed forgiveness of sins by faith in Jesus' name" is Peter's gospel to the gentile - Cornelius.
but now we have to understand that we’re beyond the law,
No text says "beyond the law"

Rather both Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8 quote the same New Covenant from the Old Testament that starts with "Law written on the heart" rather than "beyond the Law"
we re under the Grace!
True - Rom 6 makes it clear that "we are not to sin - since we are not under Law but under grace"
1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the Law"
1 John 2:1 says "I am writing these things to you that you sin not"
1 John 5:3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His commandments"

where "the first commandment with a promise - is honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-3
When we have Christ in us, we don’t need to follow the different steps
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

James 2 says that to break even one of the commandments is to break them all
that were valid during the sanctuary times.
To your point - Heb 10:4-11 does teach that the animal sacrifice and offerings ended at the cross.
It does not say "do not take God's name in vain" ended at the cross.
And I suspect you do agree with that point already.
Jesus has put an end to it And gave us a greater commandment “Honor God and Love your neighbor as yourself”!
Matt 22 - Jesus' two greatest commandments

Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5
Love your neighbor as yourself -- Lev 19:18

Even the Jews agreed with that arrangement - before the cross as Luke points out
(It s a perfect commandment including the 10). Honor God, keep the commandments and the faith in Jesus
True . Jesus said it is the rock-solid foundation upon which not only the Law is based but all the teaching of the prophets.
…. Remember, what you put in your mouth goes down to the ground but what goes out defiles you.

Mark 7 is where Christ makes that statement -- but it is "in the context" of not washing hands before eating BREAD at home. It is in reference to the tradition of ceremonial washing of sin from hands out of superstition that gentiles touched food that was in the market place ant the sin of gentiles would -- get in you -- if you ate your bread without first baptizing your fingers , washing them of sin.

Jesus said "In vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men... setting aside the commandment of God"

Mark 7:

7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Notice Jesus equates "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God"

Mark 7 ends this way

18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

===========================

Jesus warns us not to set the traditions of man above the commandments of God in the text you are referencing where He says it is not what goes in that defiles.
 
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Isabelle30900

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When I wrote “beyond the Law” I wasn t quoting anyone. I wanted to show that Grace is above Law. we re not saved because of our works to obey the Law but because Christ died so that we can be saved.
you ll find “under” the Law in the NT
 
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Isabelle30900

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If you think about it, the body does its best to communicate with us concerning diet.
  • Heartburn and acid reflux.
  • Digestive issues: Upset stomach, violent bowel movements, IBS, etc.
  • Back pain, joint pain, inflammation.
  • Bloated feeling.
  • Feeling sluggish, bogged down or tired.
I suffered from all of these issues, not just one. They are surely signs of disease setting in, if not diseases themselves.

I have noticed a big difference in how I feel, after going mostly vegetarian. Before my diet change I had chronic ankle pain from an old sprain (early 1990's). It would "resprain" itself and I often walked with a limp because of it. My lower back is worn out. It was causing me severe pain, to the point where I couldn't stand up straight. Both of these have subsided to a great degree.

My ankle no longer bothers me and my back only has minor pain now, if at all. My digestive system changed as well. I used to have chronic diarrhea because of my diet, and I often had to eat antacids like they were candy. My energy was always diminished, and I felt like doing nothing.

Eating vegetarian I feel normal. I don't have ups and downs. Everything is consistent, and my body isn't screaming at me in countless ways that something is wrong.
I ve never said anything bad about being vegetarian. I personally eat very little meat. I mostly agree with what Ellen G White writes except about coffee and tea. Just pay attention when you’re vegetarian and have some vitamin B12
 
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SabbathBlessings

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When I wrote “beyond the Law” I wasn t quoting anyone. I wanted to show that Grace is above Law. we re not saved because of our works to obey the Law but because Christ died so that we can be saved.
you ll find “under” the Law in the NT
I believe Paul addresses both of these things.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law. The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4

Paul addresses what it means to be under grace.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are under grace because we have all sinned and deserve death, but through Jesus who came to save us from our sin, we can walk in newness in Him obeying His commandments through His power by our love and faith John 14:15-18 Rom 3:31

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
 
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