Roman church errors and inventions

JacktheCatholic · Oct 2, 2008

simonthezealot said:
I would say that would include in persona christi as well as the "vicar of Christ"...
Christ himself does tell us that it is a pompous title that should NOT be used.

Naw... this boils down to terminology of different parts of scripture and how we each are taught what it means.

Vicar of Christ does not take away from God's glory at all. It is simply stating a title of someone that Catholics believe to be appointed by Christ to lead in His stead.

JacktheCatholic · Oct 2, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Yeah, I would also help him clear up a few things.

You would have to read what he wrote first.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 2, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
You would have to read what he wrote first.

Nah. I would just have me trusty Bible handy.

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me". [2 Peter 3:16]

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin' [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

"And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven"(Matt 23:9)

MANY professional anti-Catholics have used this one verse to lead many Catholics out of the Church, saying that we disobey Christ by calling our priests "father".

In Matthew 23:9, Christ is actually warning against looking to any man as a Father in the way God alone is our Father. Jesus was living in a time when religious leaders and even political leaders demanded divine worship (like the Caesars), and so our Lord was saying to His people: You don't do the same thing. Do not give to man that which is due to God alone.

As we will see in the scriptures listed below, Christ did not literally mean that we cannot address others as "father", even in a religious context. Many who object to the Catholic custom of calling priests "father" forget that in Matthew 23 Jesus also says to call no man teacher, but they have no problem calling people teacher or doctor (which is the Latin word for 'teacher'). So the anti-Catholic is not consistent in his literalistic approach to Scripture.

Here are some scriptures showing that Matthew 23:9 was not meant to be taken literalistically:

1 Cor 4: 15 - "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers : For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have become your father". This statement by St. Paul would contradict Christ if Christ had meant what He said in Matt 23:9 literally.

John 2:13 - "I write unto you; fathers, because you have known him (Jesus) who is from the beginning." John’s letter was addressed to churches in Asia Minor, and he seems to have no problem calling men in that church "father".

Acts 7:2 - "Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear." Here, St. Stephen calls the Pharisees and council "fathers". Was he disobeying Christ?

Acts 7:38-39 - In these passages, as in many others in Acts, St. Stephen refers to the children of Israel who came before as "our fathers". (read all of Acts 7.)

Romans 4:1-16 - St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" five (5) times.

Mark 11: 10 - "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." Here, the crowds outside Jerusalem call David "father" as Jesus approaches.

Titus 1:4 - St. Paul does not refer directly to himself as "father" here, but he does make that connection by reminding Christians of his spiritual fatherhood that comes from God. He makes the same point in Philemon, where here identifies the Christian slave Onesimus, as being his son in the faith and he, Paul, as having become his father.

These are the writings and/or teachings of Saints Paul, Stephen, John and Mark. But what of the words of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ?

Luke 16:24 - In Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus Himself uses the phrase "Father Abraham".

Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6 - Jesus repeatedly refers to earthly men as "father" or "fathers".

If Jesus was being literal when He said "call none your father upon earth", then this would be a direct contradiction.

As Christians, we are spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, just as St. Paul became the spiritual father of those early Christians in Corinth by preaching the Gospel to them (1 Cor 4:14-15) so our pastors, preaching the Gospel to us today and giving us new birth in Baptism are our spiritual fathers. We use the ward "father" as a sign of affection because St. Paul says, "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labor in the word and doctrine" (1 Tim 5:17).

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 2, 2008

katholikos said:
Did we veer on to the stupid "call no man father" shtick again? GOOD! I found an old paper I typed up, scanned it with OCR software and made a document out of it, so now I have a reason to post it. Here it is: (*note: the intended reader was a Catholic):

.........So, if you are ever asked why you call your priest "father", not only do you have these answers to give, but you may well ask the question: "Why don't you call your ministers 'father' ''?

I already addressed that earlier and no one responded

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Paul was a Judean from the tribe of Benjamin, who was from the loins of Jacob/Israel so yes, in essence Isaac was the father of the OC Hebrew Isrealites and Isaac was from the loins of Abraham.

Why do you suppose this rich-man is crying to Abraham as Father?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame/flogi <5395>, this."

Oh, don't forget the samaritan woman calling Jacob her father........

John 4:11 Is saying to Him, the woman, "Lord! not a bucket Thou are having, and the well is deep, whence then Thou are having the water, the living? 12 No Thou greater are of the father of us Jacob, who gives to us the well, and himself out of it drank, and sons of him , and the nurtured of him? [Genesis 29]

JacktheCatholic · Oct 2, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
I already addressed that earlier and no one responded

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Paul was a Judean from the tribe of Benjamin, who was from the loins of Jacob/Israel so yes, in essence Isaac was the father of the OC Hebrew Isrealites and Isaac was from the loins of Abraham.

Why do you suppose this rich-man is crying to Abraham as Father?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame/flogi <5395>, this."

Oh, don't forget the samaritan woman calling Jacob her father........

John 4:11 Is saying to Him, the woman, "Lord! not a bucket Thou are having, and the well is deep, whence then Thou are having the water, the living? 12 No Thou greater are of the father of us Jacob, who gives to us the well, and himself out of it drank, and sons of him , and the nurtured of him? [Genesis 29]

Basically what you are saying is that it is not blasphemous to call someone father.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 2, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
Basically what you are saying is that it is not blasphemous to call someone father.

That is correct. I prefer "brother" myself to a minister or priest

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

mont974x4 · Oct 2, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
That is correct. I prefer "brother" myself to a minister or priest

The idea is to not render honor that belongs to God to any man. Of course, the rcc breaks this ideal, but they are not alone in that sin.

JacktheCatholic · Oct 2, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
That is correct. I prefer "brother" myself to a minister or priest

Well if we get to Heaven we will all be brothers and sisters with only Yahweh as the Father. I pray we get there.

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

mont974x4 said:
The idea is to not render honor that belongs to God to any man. Of course, the rcc breaks this ideal, but they are not alone in that sin.

Do you ever post anything that is actually factual? Or do facts get in the way of your ideas?

mont974x4 · Oct 2, 2008

I prefer facts, especially when faced with the errors of rome. You should try digging for the truth instead of just repeating the rcc propaganda and random insults.

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

mont974x4 said:
I prefer facts, especially when faced with the errors of rome. You should try digging for the truth instead of just repeating the rcc propaganda and random insults.

LOL. You post a blatant untruth saying that we give to men what is due to God, then accuse ME of insults when I say you are not posting facts? This is not an insult, this is just a fact: You lied.

mont974x4 · Oct 2, 2008

I did not lie. The rcc position is to call priests "father' and the pope especially gets unhealthy, and sinful, adoration. If you can not see that, maybe it's time to take a step back.

I notice you chose to ignore the fact that I specifically stated that your denomination is not alone in that sin. We are all likely guilty of it in some form or another...it's generally called idolotry.

But thanks for calling me a liar. It's like a man standing in the corner saying there is no way out, when someone has told them there is a door available, but he won't step back and actually look.

Rick Otto · Oct 2, 2008

quote=katholikos;"And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven"(Matt 23:9)

In Matthew 23:9, Christ is actually warning against looking to any man as a Father in the way God alone is our Father. Jesus was living in a time when religious leaders and even political leaders demanded divine worship (like the Caesars), and so our Lord was saying to His people: You don't do the same thing. Do not give to man that which is due to God alone.

Totaly bogus argument. The preceding verses narrow the context to ONLY the Jewish religious establishment, not including political leaders except in one's vain imagination.

As we will see in the scriptures listed below, Christ did not literally mean that we cannot address others as "father", even in a religious context. Many who object to the Catholic custom of calling priests "father" forget that in Matthew 23 Jesus also says to call no man teacher, but they have no problem calling people teacher or doctor (which is the Latin word for 'teacher'). So the anti-Catholic is not consistent in his literalistic approach to Scripture.

He also says to call no man "master" not "teacher". This attempt at objection appeals to fantasy.

Here are some scriptures showing that Matthew 23:9 was not meant to be taken literalistically:
1 Cor 4: 15 - "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers : For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have become your father". This statement by St. Paul would contradict Christ if Christ had meant what He said in Matt 23:9 literally.

Except that he wasn't instructing them to bestow it as a title upon him.

John 2:13 - "I write unto you; fathers, because you have known him (Jesus) who is from the beginning." John’s letter was addressed to churches in Asia Minor, and he seems to have no problem calling men in that church "father".

Except that it is 1John 2:13 & he calls God the Father in the 1st verse & he addresses them as fathers of families, NOT as a religious title. This was even more spurious an argument than your previous one.

Acts 7:2 - "Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear." Here, St. Stephen calls the Pharisees and council "fathers". Was he disobeying Christ?

It is not apparent that he was using it as a religious title, and even if he was, he would've been addressing them not by a title he had endorsed, but simply by what they were accustomed to respond to as when the police asked a half-dozen priests,"Which one of you fathers is the perpetrator?"

Acts 7:38-39 - In these passages, as in many others in Acts, St. Stephen refers to the children of Israel who came before as "our fathers". (read all of Acts 7.)

But he bestows no such title upon any one individual as a holder of an ecclesiastic office. Again you've missed the point Jesus was making.

Romans 4:1-16 - St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" five (5) times.

Because Abraham was literaly, geneologicaly, a familial father. The priesthood had not been established yet.

Mark 11: 10 - "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." Here, the crowds outside Jerusalem call David "father" as Jesus approaches.

David wasn't a priest either.

Titus 1:4 - St. Paul does not refer directly to himself as "father" here, but he does make that connection by reminding Christians of his spiritual fatherhood that comes from God. He makes the same point in Philemon, where here identifies the Christian slave Onesimus, as being his son in the faith and he, Paul, as having become his father.

But not in a titular sense: "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour" Hardly an endorsement of titular usage, bro.

These are the writings and/or teachings of Saints Paul, Stephen, John and Mark. But what of the words of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ?

Luke 16:24 - In Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus Himself uses the phrase "Father Abraham".

Not exactly. Jesus is quoting Lazarus. Lazarus is calling Abraham Father, and Abraham was literaly, a father (familial sense applied).

Matt 10:21-37,

Except for verse 29 where He refers to God, the other references are familial, not religious titles.

15:4-6 - Jesus repeatedly refers to earthly men as "father" or "fathers".

Earthly family men:
4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5: But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6: And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

If Jesus was being literal when He said "call none your father upon earth", then this would be a direct contradiction.

Only if you ignore the sense in which Jesus was instructing us not to use it.

As Christians, we are spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, just as St. Paul became the spiritual father of those early Christians in Corinth by preaching the Gospel to them (1 Cor 4:14-15) so our pastors, preaching the Gospel to us today and giving us new birth in Baptism are our spiritual fathers.

None of which gives any of them the right to "Father" as a title.

We use the ward "father" as a sign of affection because St. Paul says, "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labor in the word and doctrine" (1 Tim 5:17).

Affection isn't an excuse for disobedience.

So, if you are ever asked why you call your priest "father", not only do you have these answers to give, but you may well ask the question: "Why don't you call your ministers 'father' ''?

Being proudly obtuse doesn't give us the right to proselytize for obtuseness.

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

mont974x4 said:
I did not lie. The rcc position is to call priests "father' and the pope especially gets unhealthy, and sinful, adoration......

I don't need to read any further. Those are two blatant lies. We do not give the pope "adoration", so that is a lie. We merely give him the respect he desrves.

And there is nothing wrong with calling priests "father". That old, worn out fundie line is crusty: Aren't you tired of it yet?

Christ did not literally mean that we cannot address others as "father", even in a religious context. You forget that in Matthew 23 Jesus also says to call no man teacher, but I'll bet you have no problem calling people teacher or doctor (which is the Latin word for 'teacher'). The anti-Catholic is not consistent in his literalistic approach to Scripture.

Here are some scriptures showing that Matthew 23:9 was not meant to be taken literalistically:

1 Cor 4: 15 - "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers : For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have become your father". This statement by St. Paul would contradict Christ if Christ had meant what He said in Matt 23:9 literally.

John 2:13 - "I write unto you; fathers, because you have known him (Jesus) who is from the beginning." Johns letter was addressed to churches in Asia Minor, and he seems to have no problem calling men in that church "father".

Acts 7:2 - "Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear." Here, St. Stephen calls the Pharisees and council "fathers". Was he disobeying Christ?

Acts 7:38-39 - In these passages, as in many others in Acts, St. Stephen refers to the children of Israel who came before as "our fathers". (read all of Acts 7.)

Romans 4:1-16 - St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" five (5) times.

Mark 11: 10 - "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." Here, the crowds outside Jerusalem call David "father" as Jesus approaches.

Titus 1:4 - St. Paul does not refer directly to himself as "father" here, but he does make that connection by reminding Christians of his spiritual fatherhood that comes from God. He makes the same point in Philemon, where here identifies the Christian slave Onesimus, as being his son in the faith and he, Paul, as having become his father.

These are the writings and/or teachings of Saints Paul, Stephen, John and Mark. But what of the words of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ?

Luke 16:24 - In Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus Himself uses the phrase "Father Abraham".

Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6 - Jesus repeatedly refers to earthly men as "father" or "fathers".

If Jesus was being literal when He said "call none your father upon earth", then this would be a direct contradiction.

As Christians, we are spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, just as St. Paul became the spiritual father of those early Christians in Corinth by preaching the Gospel to them (1 Cor 4:14-15) so our pastors, preaching the Gospel to us today and giving us new birth in Baptism are our spiritual fathers. We use the ward "father" as a sign of affection because St. Paul says, "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labor in the word and doctrine" (1 Tim 5:17).

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Because Abraham was literaly, geneologicaly, a familial father....

Oh, did Jesus say "Call no man your father unless he is a geneological father"? I'm sorry, that text is missing from my Bible. Are you adding to the Bible?

proselytize for obtuseness

mont974x4 · Oct 2, 2008

Terry, they are not lies. One need look no further to the response rc's give when a protestant calls for a biblical attitude to Mary, the pope, or "saints" to know that it is far more than simple respect.

It isn't about the use of the specific word "father", it is about our heart attitude towards those people. DO we need to show due respect? Absolutley, but the rc "Tradition" has gone to far and strayed into idolotry. But, in all honesty so has anyone else who has placed on a pedastal people that should not be so elevated.

tadoflamb · Oct 2, 2008

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defenseJesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 John 2:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 2:12
I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
1 John 2:11-13 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
1 John 2:12-14 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 2:18
[ Warning Against Antichrists ] Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1 John 2:17-19 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 2:28
[ Children of God ] And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 2:27-29 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:1
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1 John 3:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:6-8 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:9-11 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:17-19 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 John 4:3-5 (in Context) 1 John 4 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 5:2
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
1 John 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1 John 5:18-20 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 5:21
Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.
1 John 5:20-21 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)
2 John 1:1
The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truthand not I only, but also all who know the truth -
2 John 1:1-3 (in Context) 2 John 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 John 1:4
It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.
2 John 1:3-5 (in Context) 2 John 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 John 1:13
The children of your chosen sister send their greetings.
2 John 1:12-13 (in Context) 2 John 1 (Whole Chapter)
3 John 1:4
I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.
3 John 1:3-5 (in Context) 3 John 1 (Whole Chapter)

What kind of male figure would call his readers "children"?

katholikos · Oct 2, 2008

mont974x4 said:
Terry, they are not lies.....

Who is this post aimed toward?

Roman church errors and inventions

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