Rom 1:26,27 Homosexuality, a Depraved Behavior

[grasping the after wind]

I'm not speaking of sexuality at two years of age. I'm speaking of behavior--mannerisms, preferences, deportment--that is not only markedly feminine, but dramatically expressive.

Don't equate effeminate with gay. That is an unwarranted stereotype.

 

[pescador]

I'm not speaking of sexuality at two years of age. I'm speaking of behavior--mannerisms, preferences, deportment--that is not only markedly feminine, but dramatically expressive.

Have you ever heard of cultural relativism? Cultural relativism is the idea that a person's beliefs, values, and practices should be understood based on that person's own culture, and not be judged against the criteria of another.

If a two year old dresses up as someone of another gender, is that a crime? I can't think of a better way to stigmatize a young child than to criticize (at a minimum) for "playing dress up" or similar behavior.

 

[Clare73]

Don't equate effeminate with gay. That is an unwarranted stereotype.

But that is what he is now. . .and I want to know why.

 

[Clare73]

Have you ever heard of cultural relativism? Cultural relativism is the idea that a person's beliefs, values, and practices should be understood based on that person's own culture, and not be judged against the criteria of another.

If a two year old dresses up as someone of another gender, is that a crime? I can't think of a better way to stigmatize a young child than to criticize (at a minimum) for "playing dress up" or similar behavior.

Non-responsive.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

There are many, many sins mentioned in the Bible. Why is same-sex behavior focused on by Christians, to the exclusion of far more serious sins. Can anyone really compare the rejection of God, rejection of "their neighbor", hatred, murder, theft, assault, lying, stealing, etc. to loving somebody of the same gender? Come on, people -- get real!

Obsession over homosexuals or homophobia is frequently hiding one's own homosexual arousal and the fear of it. Like in Hamlet, maybe: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal? - PubMed

There have been too many anti-homosexual pulpiteers exposed to doubt it: George Rekers, Ted Haggard, Eddie Long, Jim Bakker, Paul Crouch...

 

[Clare73]

Has no one puzzled over the Biblical view and whether it is chosen or not?

Does no one have family members to which it applies?

 

[A.ModerateOne]

Have you ever known someone whom you knew when he was two years old that he was absolutely gay?

What do you think that is about?

I think that 2-year old boy is in a dangerous environment if you are really close enough to the boy to express such an outlandish characterization of him. Gay, homosexual or homosexual orientation is a very complicated issue:

"Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one's sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people."
Answers to your questions for a better understanding of sexual orientation and homosexuality

Do you really think a 2-year old can be labeled in such a complex matter? As a Christian I see no biblical right to 'label' anyone with non-biblical labels that did not exist until the latter 19th century.

 

[Clare73]

I think that 2-year old boy is in a dangerous environment if you are really close enough to the boy to express such an outlandish characterization of him.

The two-year old is now a grown man.

Gay, homosexual or homosexual orientation is a very complicated issue:

"Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one's sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people."
Answers to your questions for a better understanding of sexual orientation and homosexuality

Do you really think a 2-year old can be labeled in such a complex matter? As a Christian I see no biblical right to 'label' anyone with non-biblical labels that did not exist until the latter 19th century.

I can speak only to his dramatic consistent behavior.

My best theory for both male and female homosexuals is deprivation of parental bond with the same sex parent, for whatever reason,
which disposes some more than others to bonding with the same sex.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

The two-year old is now a grown man.

I can speak only to his dramatic consistent behavior.

My best theory for both male and female homosexuals is deprivation of parental bond with the same sex parent, for whatever reason,
which disposes some more than others to bonding with the same sex.

If you are going to discuss such matters, educate yourself on them. One good site by a Professor of Psychology at a Christian College includes the chapter on Sexual Orientation out of his College Psychology textbook:

http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/SexualOrientationPsy12e.pdf

 

[Clare73]

If you are going to discuss such matters, educate yourself on them. One good site by a Professor of Psychology at a Christian College includes the chapter on Sexual Orientation out of his College Psychology textbook:

http://www.davidmyers.org/davidmyers/assets/SexualOrientationPsy12e.pdf

Thanks.

I think brain wiring explains everything, and so it's good to know it explains homosexuality.

That confirms my understanding of brain wiring.

Now to address the Biblical moral issue of Ro 1:26-27.

Behavior may be the result of brain wiring over which we have no control, say--murderers, the violent, pedophiles, thieves, etc.
But the fact remains, those behaviors are unlawful.

So what do we do with unlawful behaviors?
Well, altering brain patterns seems to me to be the rest route, developing drugs to control them as we do with depression, psychosis, delusions, anxiety, ADD, hyperactivity, etc. for those who are willing to use them, and for those who are not, that leaves only incarceration or homelessness.

And short of those drugs, Biblical morality for the believer requires looking to God, prayer and denying oneself, just as unbelieving kleptomaniacs must do to stay out of the legal system.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

For those Christians given the birth defect, anomaly, a quirk of nature; that of homosexual orientation, is there not a middle way; similar to the option of divorce Jesus gave to a spouse when his mate is unfaithful? One approach could be as follows:

A quote from Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices by Thomas Brooks (1608-1680):

"God has nowhere engaged himself by any particular promise, that souls converted and united to Christ shall not fall again and again into the same sin after conversion. I cannot find in the whole book of God where he has promised any such strength or power against this or that particular sin, as that the soul should be forever, in this life, put out of a possibility of falling again and again into the same sins. And where God has not a mouth to speak, I must not have a heart to believe. God will graciously pardon those sins to his people, which he will not in this life totally subdue in his people. I have never seen a promise in Scripture, which says that when our sorrow and grief has been so great, or so much, for this or that sin—that then God will preserve us from ever falling into the same sin. The sight of such a promise would be as life from the dead to many a precious soul, who desires nothing more than to keep close to Christ, and fears nothing more than backsliding from Christ." page 106 found online:
https://www.preachtheword.com/bookstore/remedies.pdf

Since the Apostle Paul stated that not all have the "gift" of sexual abstinence for even a temporary period, (1 Cor. 7:7-9) and considering this Puritan's statement; is a monogamous relationship a better option than a life of promiscuity, many repeated falls into the same 'sin'?

The late Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, Fuller Theological Seminary, has written:

"I think that homosexual people are not responsible for their sexual orientation toward loving people of their own gender.
I think that, as a class, homosexual people are as moral, as spiritual, as decent and good, as creative, and as much in need of the grace of God as heterosexual people are.
I think that homosexuality is not the sexual orientation that God intended in creation. It is a genetic lapse. It is nature gone awry. There is tragedy in it. And homosexual people are called to live as morally within their tragedy as the rest of us are called to live within whatever may be ours.
I think that homosexual people merit the same rights and bear the same responsibilities within society that anyone else does.
I think that, if celibacy is not possible, it is better for homosexual people to live together in committed monogamous relationships of love than not. Homosexual partnerships that are committed offer the best moral option available." page 243
"Sex for Christians" Revised Edition 1994 ... Dr. Smedes (1921-2002) was professor emeritus of theology and ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California... Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

This avoids promiscuity on the one extreme, and the perversion of the institution of marriage on the opposite extreme, and it can fit the wisdom of the preacher:

"Then I returned and saw vanity under the sun. There is one that is alone, and he hath not a second; yea, he hath neither son nor brother; yet is there no end of all his labour, neither are his eyes satisfied with riches. For whom then, saith he, do I labour, and deprive my soul of good? This also is vanity, yea, it is a sore travail. Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour. For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth, and hath not another to lift him up. Again, if two lie together, then they have warmth: but how can one be warm alone? And if a man prevail against him that is alone, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." (Eccl 4:7-12 ERV)

This is my last post on this issue.

 

[Clare73]

For those Christians given the birth defect, anomaly, a quirk of nature; that of homosexual orientation, is there not a middle way; similar to the option of divorce Jesus gave to a spouse when his mate is unfaithful? One approach could be as follows:

A quote from Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices by Thomas Brooks (1608-1680):

"God has nowhere engaged himself by any particular promise, that souls converted and united to Christ shall not fall again and again into the same sin after conversion. I cannot find in the whole book of God where he has promised any such strength or power against this or that particular sin, as that the soul should be forever, in this life, put out of a possibility of falling again and again into the same sins. And where God has not a mouth to speak, I must not have a heart to believe.

However, God does have a mouth to speak in 1Jn 3:6, 9-10, 5:18 regarding a life that, though not sinless, is not characterized by sin.

That is why I say they must turn to God in prayer, dependence and trust, for the power to practice the self-denial required by him.

God will graciously pardon those sins to his people, which he will not in this life totally subdue in his people. I have never seen a promise in Scripture, which says that when our sorrow and grief has been so great, or so much, for this or that sin—that then God will preserve us from ever falling into the same sin. The sight of such a promise would be as life from the dead to many a precious soul, who desires nothing more than to keep close to Christ, and fears nothing more than backsliding from Christ." page 106 found online:
https://www.preachtheword.com/bookstore/remedies.pdf

Since the Apostle Paul stated that not all have the "gift" of sexual abstinence for even a temporary period, (1 Cor. 7:7-9) and considering this Puritan's statement; is a monogamous relationship a better option than a life of promiscuity, many repeated falls into the same 'sin'?

The late Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, Fuller Theological Seminary, has written:

"I think that homosexual people are not responsible for their sexual orientation toward loving people of their own gender.
I think that, as a class, homosexual people are as moral, as spiritual, as decent and good, as creative, and as much in need of the grace of God as heterosexual people are.
I think that homosexuality is not the sexual orientation that God intended in creation. It is a genetic lapse. It is nature gone awry. There is tragedy in it. And homosexual people are called to live as morally within their tragedy as the rest of us are called to live within whatever may be ours.
I think that homosexual people merit the same rights and bear the same responsibilities within society that anyone else does.
I think that, if celibacy is not possible, it is better for homosexual people to live together in committed monogamous relationships of love than not. Homosexual partnerships that are committed offer the best moral option available." page 243
"Sex for Christians" Revised Edition 1994 ... Dr. Smedes (1921-2002) was professor emeritus of theology and ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California... Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

This avoids promiscuity on the one extreme, and the perversion of the institution of marriage on the opposite extreme, and it can fit the wisdom of the preacher:

"Then I returned and saw vanity under the sun. There is one that is alone, and he hath not a second; yea, he hath neither son nor brother; yet is there no end of all his labour, neither are his eyes satisfied with riches. For whom then, saith he, do I labour, and deprive my soul of good? This also is vanity, yea, it is a sore travail. Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour. For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth, and hath not another to lift him up. Again, if two lie together, then they have warmth: but how can one be warm alone? And if a man prevail against him that is alone, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." (Eccl 4:7-12 ERV)

This is my last post on this issue.