Role of Mary

[Ainesis]

Do you really think the scriptures support this premise you are suggesting?

I would not have offered them if I did not find support in Scripture. If you believe otherwise, then perhaps you should save us both the time and post how?

Why can’t you just give credit where it’s due? It doesn’t take anything away from the sovereignty of God.

What type of credit do you think she is due that I have not already acknowledged? She is Jesus' Mother, quite a credit indeed.

Do you think God would be displeased if we honored His mother?

And that is just it. I don't have to wonder what Jesus would be displeased with. I am simply to obey Him, and in doing so, He will be pleased. The problem is, there is nothing in Scripture from Jesus or any other that encourages us to exalt her above any other believer. So while you or others might think it is a "good idea", good does not necessarily equate to Godly.

Yes I do, I have the oral word of God that tells us this, and the written word of God does not contradict this and further more, Luther and Calvin did not even deny this part of sacred tradition. And where do you believe the bible says Mary disobeyed God??? I would be most curious to read this.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12

Where does the scriptures say we are to honor all believers?

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Peter 2:17

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." I Timothy 5:17

"Honour widows that are widows indeed." I Timothy 5:13

Now, "Honor mary, they mother of God"? No. Just not there. Should Mary be honored? Yes, but the same way we honor every other believer.

"And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." Mark 3:33-35

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28

That all generations will call believers blessed?

The same blessed that Mary is, all believers are.

"So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. " Galatians 3:9

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual bless ings in heavenly places in Christ" Ephesians 1:3

The scriptures say that Mary is blessed among women

"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent." Judges 5:24

that she is full of grace,

The same grace Mary had is the same grace all believers have.

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." I Peter 4:10

Where do you get that this refers to all believers?

I never said these statements referred to all believers. Where are you getting that from? What I have said is that Jesus said that the honor she is due is not above that of any other believer.

 

[Benedicta00]

No actually what you said was she was denying the truth because it was taught by Catholics. Whatever, I have no wish to speak to you anymore. Good day.

I do not appreciate you telling me what I meant. You are the one assuming here, not me.

Am I supposed to just give credence to everyone who tells me what the bible says? You all disbelieve the Catholic Church’s teachings, are we not entitled to do the same? To disbelieve in one’s self interpretation of scripture?

 

[Ainesis]

You said there is a difference in Jesus and God both being God,

No I didn't. You should read more carefully.

 

[Benedicta00]

No I didn't. You should read more carefully.

In all seriousness, you said there was a sharp difference in God the father and Jesus who is God and man, can you tell me what that sharp difference is? Is Jesus not God to you? If he is, how is Mary not His mother? Can you just answer that?

 

[Ainesis]

In all seriousness, you said there was a sharp difference in God the father and Jesus who is God and man

That is correct, I did say the above. I did not however, say that there was a sharp difference in their divinity, which is what you have alleged.

can you tell me what that sharp difference is?

You have already stated it. What is your understanding of the Trinity?

can you tell me what that sharp difference is? Is Jesus not God to you? If he is, how is Mary not His mother? Can you just answer that?

I already have.

 

[Axion]

And that is just it. I don't have to wonder what Jesus would be displeased with. I am simply to obey Him, and in doing so, He will be pleased.

Excessive pride in refusing to honour the mother of the King, and in claiming to be on a level with the one that He gave us as mother of all His brethren, is extremely unlikely to please Him.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12

The misuse of these verses has been demonstrated so many times on these forums, you cannot have missed it. The word ALL does NOT rule out all exceptions as it is used in the New testament, as anyone can see...

John 12:19, "All the world has gone after him!" Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Luke 2:1 "And an order went out from caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be counted." Was everyone on earth really counted?

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Peter 2:17

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." I Timothy 5:17

"Honour widows that are widows indeed." I Timothy 5:13

Honour (Timao) is not the same word as Eulogio (exalt) as used of Mary.

And even in your own example, we see that this honour is not equal: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

"And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." Mark 3:33-35

And who among us, but Mary, does the full will of God? Do you?

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28


The same blessed that Mary is, all believers are.

Do all believers keep the whole word of God? Then those believers must be living lives entirely without sin, and are indeed blessed.

"So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. " Galatians 3:9

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual bless ings in heavenly places in Christ" Ephesians 1:3

The word for blessed used in these verses is Eulogio, which is used twice of Mary in Luke, in the repeated phrase Blessed are you among women. Once by the Angel, and again by Elizabeth inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Eulogio is a special word, and is heightened by the phrase, making Mary uniquely blessed.

In the four Gospels Eulogio is only used a total of 26 times:

2 times of Mary
12 times of God/Jesus
3 times at the consecration of the bread and wine of the Last Supper
4 times at the transformation of the loaves and fishes
2 times of the Apostles after the resurrection
2 times allegorically (Bless/exalt those who curse you)
1 time of the children barred from Jesus

The word is not one used commonly, or applied to all believers.

"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent." Judges 5:24

The word used here for blessed is Barak, a word far more commonly used than Eulogio.

The same grace Mary had is the same grace all believers have.

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." I Peter 4:10

The "manifold" grace referred to here is the manifold grace of God, of which believers are granted a portion.

Mary is the ONLY person in the Bible to be entitled "Full of Grace" (Kecharitomene).

 

[Ainesis]

Excessive pride in refusing to honour the mother of the King, and in claiming to be on a level with the one that He gave us as mother of all His brethren, is extremely unlikely to please Him.

If any of the above that you have said were true, I might be able to believe it. Unfortunately howeverall that you offer are slander, accusation, and assumptions.

I have already shown in Scripture that Jesus Himself places His mother on the same level as other believers, more than once. As strongly as you may feel about this issue, I must obey God and not man.

The misuse of these verses has been demonstrated so many times on these forums, you cannot have missed it. The word ALL does NOT rule out all exceptions as it is used in the New testament, as anyone can see...

And likewise, I am sure in these many discussions that you have been shown how "all" can also be a reference to each individual. The fact that it may not be exhaustive in some senses, has no bearing whatsoever on how it is used in those verse I cited. So, I have God saying all have sinned and I have man saying but not Mary. Sorry, again I must go with God. He makes no such claim so neither do I.

Honour (Timao) is not the same word as Eulogio (exalt) as used of Mary.

And who said that it was? I was asked where in Scripture we are told to honor all believers. I showed that. And the word Eulogio that is used towards mary is also used of all believers, as I have previously shown.

And even in your own example, we see that this honour is not equal: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Ahhh, we do see that don't we. But then I never said that all honor due to all believers is equal. I said that the honor due to mary is equal to the honor due to all believers.

Equally as interesting is the fact that in listing who should get more or double honor than other believers, mary is not mentioned. Not only are we never instructed to honor mary specifically, but she is not even listed with others who are God says are due double honor.

And who among us, but Mary, does the full will of God? Do you?

Jesus alone does the full will of God. Although Scripture speaks of one being sinless, that "one" is Jesus, not mary.

The word for blessed used in these verses is Eulogio, which is used twice of Mary in Luke

Yes, and likewise it is used twice as a reference to all who believe. Isn't that wonderful?! (Galatians 3:9; Ephesians 1:3)

The word is not one used commonly, or applied to all believers.

Well, I am afraid that is just incorrect. Please see above.

The word used here for blessed is Barak, a word far more commonly used than Eulogio.

Yes, it would be a different word because the Old Testament was written in a different language than the Greek. The reference of Judges 5:24 was not in response to the word Eulogio, but specifically in response to mary being blessed among women. She is not the only one whom God has called that.

The "manifold" grace referred to here is the manifold grace of God, of which believers are granted a portion.

And the grace that Mary had, where or whom do you think that came from? It was indeed God's grace, and the same grace He gives to all believers. This is why He calls us to be good "stewards" of this grace. One cannot be a stweard over something that one has not been given.

Mary is the ONLY person in the Bible to be entitled "Full of Grace" (Kecharitomene).

Yes, mary was told that she was highly favored or as you say "full of grace." However, I would seriously question whether this was a "title." It was not a proper name, but was in fact a part of the greeting from Gabriel. The word actually means:

1. to make graceful
   1. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

Yes, God did in fact show mary favor or honor her with blessings. This is what God did unto her, not what she possessed in her own right. The word is the perfect, passive participle which also confirms that mary was the recipient of this grace from God.



Further, again, this same grace is bestowed to all believers.

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6

Jesus was also "full of grace" but unlike the words used to greet mary, the words used to describe Jesus specifically illustrates a fullness or completeness of grace as contrasted with being highly favored by God. This distinction also makes it clear that what mary had was bestowed by God (as it is with us) while what Jesus has eminates form Him.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. " John 1:14

Full - Pleres; full, i.e. filled up (as opposed to empty); full, i.e. complete; lacking nothing, perfect

Grace - Charis; grace; good will, loving-kindness, favour;

The words used for mary are not the same as these used for Jesus because God is not saying that mary had complete grace, but Jesus did. She was filled with grace (by God) but she was not complete in grace as was Jesus.

Nonetheless, in spite of our different understandings of what it means for mary to be highly favored, we are still left with the fact that Jesus says she is no more blessed and due not more honor than every other believer.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Shelby did not include a caveot "in my opinion", instead she stated it in the manner that led me to believe she thought it to be a truth. There is no way possible except for divine revelation that Shelby could possibly know what the intent of, or in what state the heart of Ainess is regarding this issue. Shelby said that Ainess was denying the reality scriptures because that "reality" is taught by the Catholic church. That to me was an attack on her character.

Hi Lollard . .

I can understand why you would feel more comfortable with the inclusion oif "in my opinion" . . but here is, where I think, a fundamental difference comes to the surface between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestants . . For in Protetantism, private interpretation rules as king (in a sense), and so, ultimately, how one interprets the bible is according to one's own thinging, one's opinion. So, it is very appropriate for one to expect another to add "in my opinion' when talking about how to interpret a passage of scripture, for ultimately, that is all one is left with comparing . . opinions.

It is very different in the Catholic and Orthodox Church. We do not believe what we believe according to our own "personal opinion" when it comes to the fundamental truths of the faith and the scriptural passages that are part of Church teaching regarding doctrines and dogma. We do have personal opinions on bible passages that do not fall into this catagory. But when it comes to doctrines and dogmas, no . . it is not a part of our thinking process at all to say, well in my opinion Mother of God means this . . there is one and only one meaning and that is what is in accord with 2000 years of Church teaching.

So no . . passages such as we are discussion are not open to personal interpretation and Shelb5 was NOT expressing a PERSONAL opinion, so it would be VERY inappropriate for her to have added "in my opinion".

Catholics do not think of doctrines and dogmas as something that falls in the realm of personal opinion.


I think you have taken what Shelb5 said a little too far if you see it as an attack on someone else's character if they are told that they have denied the reality of scripture, which the Catholic Church teaches. That was not a character statement at all.

That is exactly what she said. "Sorry but you are just denying the reality of the scriptures and assuming your own meaning to it just so you do not have to agree with the Catholic Church."

Yes. I cannot be any clearer than that. Ainess can defend herself, I just felt that something had to be said and as her brother in Christ I said it.

I have to agree with Shelb5 . . that is exactly what I see her doing too . .

She is saying on one hand that she agrees that Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus Mother, but unwilling to say what is the logical conclusion that Mary is the mother of God . . and I too do believe it is simply, as I stated earlier, just too difficult for some to just come out and say Mary is the Mother of God, even though everything else they say agrees with it, BECAUSE it is TOO CATHOLIC . .

And so, this dancing around the term is what I see to be a reaction to not wanting to appear as endorsing something that is seen as VERY CATHOLIC by some ..


Anyway . . just my thoughts . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

So much is made over the words "Mother of God" in some circles, as though it is something to be shunned . .


However, it is very interesting that the Early Church did not feel this way.

Starting with the Apostolic Fathers we see some examples of their attitude towards the idea of Mary conceiving God in her womb:

Ignatius of Antioch states in his Epistle to the Ephesians (110 AD):

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan" [13].
​

Irenaeus of Lyons writes in Against Heresies (180-199 AD),

"The Virgin Mary...being obediant to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" [14].
​

Finally Ephraim the Syrain (d.373 AD) composed a hymn with the words

"This Virgin became a Mother while preserving her virginity....and the handmaid and work of His wisdom became the Mother of God"
​

From http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9423921&postcount=6
​

I am very glad the testimony of the Early Church from the very beginning supports the understanding that Mary is the Mother of God.


Peace in Him!

 

[SumTinWong]

I do not appreciate you telling me what I meant. You are the one assuming here, not me.

I gave a direct quote of what you said, not my opinion. Go back and read what you said:"Sorry but you are just denying the reality of the scriptures and assuming your own meaning to it just so you do not have to agree with the Catholic Church. "

Am I supposed to just give credence to everyone who tells me what the bible says? You all disbelieve the Catholic Church’s teachings, are we not entitled to do the same? To disbelieve in one’s self interpretation of scripture?

What does that have to do with anything? You told her she was denying the truth, and assuming her own meaning because it was a Catholic teaching. Don't you even realize how arrogant that is? To assume that this woman would toss down truths of God just because the RCC church teaches it? Could it possibly be because the RCC is wrong? Wait of course not, how could they be right?

The sad thing about all this is you cannot see how wrong a statement like yours could possibly be.

 

[SumTinWong]

Anyway . . just my thoughts . .


Peace in Him!

Well TLF up until now I have respected your thoughts. Not the content so much but at least your thoughts were based on study, and not this garbage you just laid out what I believe. I haven't agreed with much of what you believe to be true but I have at least respected that you are learned and know of what you speak. That is up until now.

Please don't bother responding as it is becoming redundant to try and have this conversation with you.

 

[Ainesis]

It is indeed interesting that some claim to use the title mother of God as an expression that is centered upon defining Christ (as was the intent at the council that decreed it), yet, their main concern seems to be what it says about mary and not Jesus.

For example, one can consent to the truths behind that title, but that is just not good enough. The phraseology of how this truth is communicated is given more reverence than the truth itself. If one's view was as christ-centered as proclaimed, then the truth that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His incarnation would be a platform for commonality and fellowship, regardless of how one chose to communicate that truth. The fact that this is not the case seems to show that there is something more at stake than just concern for Christ.

The same would like to claim that their contention is justified, yes even righteous, because those who deny this title are questioning the deity of Christ. Yet, their defense of the title is not a championing of Christ, but of His mother. The defense is not about proving how incarnate Jesus is both God and man; the defense is in how mary was singled out and different from all others. If their use of this title was as Christ-centered as proposed, then the defense of this title would also be the same...christ-centered. If the defense of 'mother of God' is for the sake of Jesus, then where for goodness sake is Jesus in all of these discussions?

Are there those who understand and appreciate that mother of God was intended as attributes for Jesus and not mary? Yes. Are there those who use this title and whose focus in embracing it remains on Christ? Sure there are. Yet and still, there is much to be seen from actions, which are said to speak louder than words.

 

[pcwilkins]

Both!

 

[Benedicta00]

That is correct, I did say the above. I did not however, say that there was a sharp difference in their divinity, which is what you have alleged.


You have already stated it. What is your understanding of the Trinity?


I already have.

You have consistently avoided answering this question. You want to give me your commentary on the scriptures but you will not answer a rather simple question.

Is Jesus God? If so than how can Mary not be “Mother of God”?

Jesus is one divine person, do you agree? If so then how is it even possible that he can separate his humanity from his divinity and Mary just be mother of Jesus the human?

To do so is to make Jesus two separate people. Jesus is one divine person. If He is one divine person than how can Mary not be mother of God?

can you explain to me and not give bible comentary, how Mary is not the mother of God if Jesus is God and He is one divine person? Just how would that work, if Jesus is God, but Mary is not the Mother of God?

 

[Ainesis]

You have consistently avoided answering this question. You want to give me your commentary on the scriptures but you will not answer a rather simple question.

Is Jesus God? If so than how can Mary not be “Mother of God”?

Jesus is one divine person, do you agree? If so then how is it even possible that he can separate his humanity from his divinity and Mary just be mother of Jesus the human?

To do so is to make Jesus two separate people. Jesus is one divine person. If He is one divine person than how can Mary not be mother of God?

can you explain to me and not give bible comentary, how Mary is not the mother of God if Jesus is God and He is one divine person? Just how would that work, if Jesus is God, but Mary is not the Mother of God?

I don't mean to offend you by referring to scriptures. For me, this is the least volatile response as the words are then not my own, but God's. In such a case, it becomes not about what we say, but what He says. Either way, if this is not an approach you prefer, then I will honor that.

Unfortunately, I have tried a myraid of ways to answer your question and nothing short of perhaps agreeing with your understanding seems able to get across. I will, however, offer two more attempts, then perhaps we should let sleeping dogs lie.

Here is an earlier response I gave to Oblio in regards to this question. I repeat it in case you have missed it.

Of course the Lord Jesus is God, just as much as He is man. Both are equally important and inseparable because it is the beauty of His existence that makes our salvation possible. It took God's Son to lay down a sinless life. It took a man to pay the penalty equated to men for sin. I cannot look at one aspect of who Christ is to the exclusion of the other.

Lastly, perhaps it would help if you share with me your understanding of the Trinity. I have tried to answer your questions sincerely, yet I have continued to ask you this and you never answer.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think you have taken what Shelb5 said a little too far if you see it as an attack on someone else's character if they are told that they have denied the reality of scripture, which the Catholic Church teaches. That was not a character statement at all.

Thanks for trying to explain my position over and over but it is falling on deaf ears. You are correct, my intent, it was the farthest thing from my mind to insult anyone. But I am being acused and I don't even know why.

Lollard,

Yes Catholics are considered arrogant, what's new. We do believe we have the fullness of truth and the objective correct interpretation of the scriptures because we have the fullness of truth, we have the deposit of faith left with the Church by Christ. Protestants are the ones who wanted to throw that out and leave themselves with just the scriptures and the subjectiveness of their own authority which in turns leaves them with a margin of error. We do not rely on ourselves to self interpret to decide what is true. Sorry if you think us believing God gave us a way that does not rely on our own fallible minds to know truth, a way that does not depend on us, arrogant.

Personally, what I consider arrogant is when someone quotes scripture to me, preaching at me, telling me their self interpretation is truth over that of the Church that Christ left us to know truth. I find that highly arrogant.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Thanks for trying to explain my position over and over but it is falling on deaf ears. You are correct, my intent, it was the farthest thing from my mind to insult anyone. But I am being acused and I don't even know why.

Lollard,

Yes Catholics are considered arrogant, what's new. We do believe we have the fullness of truth and the objective correct interpretation of the scriptures because we have the fullness of truth, we have the deposit of faith left with the Church by Christ. Protestants are the ones who wanted to throw that out and leave themselves with just the scriptures and the subjectiveness of their own authority which in turns leaves them with a margin of error. We do not rely on ourselves to self interpret to decide what is true. Sorry if you think us believing God gave us a way that does not rely on our own fallible minds to know truth, a way that does not depend on us, arrogant.

Personally, what I consider arrogant is when someone quotes scripture to me, preaching at me, telling me their self interpretation is truth over that of the Church that Christ left us to know truth. I find that highly arrogant.

Forgive me...

 

[thereselittleflower]

I keep thinking about a verse in scripture . . . When Simeon was prophesying to Mary:

Luk 2:35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.
​

Peace in Him!

 

[SumTinWong]

Thanks for trying to explain my position over and over but it is falling on deaf ears. You are correct, my intent, it was the farthest thing from my mind to insult anyone. But I am being acused and I don't even know why. .

Yes Catholics are considered arrogant, what's new. We do believe we have the fullness of truth and the objective correct interpretation of the scriptures because we have the fullness of truth, we have the deposit of faith left with the Church by Christ. Protestants are the ones who wanted to throw that out and leave themselves with just the scriptures and the subjectiveness of their own authority which in turns leaves them with a margin of error. We do not rely on ourselves to self interpret to decide what is true. Sorry if you think us believing God gave us a way that does not rely on our own fallible minds to know truth, a way that does not depend on us, arrogant.

Personally, what I consider arrogant is when someone quotes scripture to me, preaching at me, telling me their self interpretation is truth over that of the Church that Christ left us to know truth. I find that highly arrogant.

Blah blah blah.

 

[SumTinWong]

I keep thinking about a verse in scripture . . . When Simeon was prophesying to Mary:

Luk 2:35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.
​

Peace in Him!

Romans 12:3 "For I say, by the grace that is given me, to all that are among you, not to be more wise than it behoveth to be wise, but to be wise unto sobriety and according as God hath divided to every one the measure of faith."