Role of Mary

[Benedicta00]

I know there is only one church. Catholics and non-Catholics don't agree on what that is. Jesus added me to His church when I accepted Him as Savior. I'm not separated from His church though I'm not nor ever have been Catholic. Of course, you believe different. That isn't going to change. We'll know in eternity what the truth is. If the Catholic church is the one true church Christ established it's awful strange that a reading of the Bible doesn't give everyone the desire to join the Catholic church.

There was no other "church" other than the Catholic Church until the reformation. This is a historical fact, that Luther broke from the Catholic Church and began what we call Protestantism. What other Church did he brake from?? There wasn't any other Catholic Church. We have the Christian faith because the Catholic Church brought it around the world as Christ commissioned them to. It is thanks to the Catholic Church we are all Christians.

As far as the bible is concerned, many Protestants have studied the bible to the point they have come home to the Church.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There was no other "church" other than the Catholic Church until the reformation. This is a historical fact, that Luther broke from the Catholic Church and began what we call Protestantism. What other Church did he brake from?? There wasn't any other Catholic Church. We have the Christian faith because the Catholic Church brought it around the world as Christ commissioned them to. It is thanks to the Catholic Church we are all Christians.

As far as the bible is concerned, many Protestants have studied the bible to the point they have come home to the Church.

Sorry, But I disagree! This statement is too simplistic, you leave out the Orthodox Church all together.

The Roman Church "as a self ruling entity" didn't exist until it pulled away from the other four... Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Constantiople.

Martin Luther would have done well to return to the Orthodox Church in his decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church....

But then as now the "Roman Catholic" Church denies the existance of the Orthodox Church...

Returning to Papal Supremacy and other ideas supported by Roman dogma is foolishness, although I must say it's a far cry better that Protestantism....

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

Sorry, But I disagree! This statement is too simplistic, you leave out the Orthodox Church all together.

The Roman Church "as a self ruling entity" didn't exist until it pulled away from the other four... Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Constantiople.

Martin Luther would have done well to return to the Orthodox Church in his decision to leave the Roman Catholic Church....

But then as now the "Roman Catholic" Church denies the existance of the Orthodox Church...

Returning to Papal Supremacy and other ideas supported by Roman dogma is foolishness, although I must say it's a far cry better that Protestantism....

Forgive me...

I’m ignoring the insults about Rome. When I say Catholic Church, I mean catholic and apostolic Church. That would include the EO until the split. There was only one Church until the schisms and reformation and it was/is the Catholic Church. You think you kept the true Church, we think we did (and we do consider the EO to be true Churches even though you do not consider the same about us) but the point is, it wasn’t any other Catholic Church that began in 33 AD other than the Catholic and apostolic Church. There was no Christians who did not hold to the catholic faith. The early Church wasn’t protestant is belief, that is just historically false to think it was. The Protestants beliefs are all new dating back to Luther.

And I too think that one can do worse than the EO Church.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I’m ignoring the insults about Rome. When I say Catholic Church, I mean catholic and apostolic Church. That would include the EO until the split. There was only one Church until the schisms and reformation and it was/is the Catholic Church. You think you kept the true Church, we think we did (and we do consider the EO to be true Churches even though you do not consider the same about us) but the point is, it wasn’t any other Catholic Church that began in 33 AD other than the Catholic and apostolic Church. There was no Christians who did not hold to the catholic faith. The early Church wasn’t protestant is belief, that is just historically false to think it was. The Protestants beliefs are all new dating back to Luther.

And I too think that one can do worse than the EO Church.

No insult was intended, perhaps using the "C" (caps) for Roman Catholic, and "c" for catholic meaning "whole and complete" would help...

Forgive me...

 

[duh_hikki_zealot]

She is a woman used by God. Period.

 

[Axion]

She is a woman used by God. Period.

God doesn't "use" people.

He seeks their free co-operation.

Mary gave her free co-operation, and so became Mother of God the Son, and blessed among women. As Mother of Jesus Christ, she is also mother of all his brethren - those who follow Christ and obey God.

 

[Benedicta00]

She is a woman used by God. Period.

Really? Is that what your mother is? Someone who was just used to bring you into the world? Is that what we are all here for, just to be used? Or do we all have a purpose?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Really? Is that what your mother is? Someone who was just used to bring you into the world? Is that what we are all here for, just to be used? Or do we all have a purpose?

Good call Shelb5,

Forgive me..

 

[Benedicta00]

God doesn't "use" people.

He seeks their free co-operation.

Mary gave her free co-operation, and so became Mother of God the Son, and blessed among women. As Mother of Jesus Christ, she is also mother of all his brethren - those who follow Christ and obey God.

Isn’t amazing? How the scriptures are so blatantly ignored when it comes to Mary? “What is that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” It says rather plainly that Mary is the mother of God.

 

[Ainesis]

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Yes. We are all here to be used by God. He has created everything and everyone for HIS purpose. Not all people realize god's purpose in their lives because not all individuals recognize God's soveriegnty over their lives.

It is no insult to be used by God, and in fact it is an honor for everyone who serves Him to be used by Him.

 

[Ainesis]

Isn’t amazing? How the scriptures are so blatantly ignored when it comes to Mary? “What is that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” It says rather plainly that Mary is the mother of God.

No it does not "say plainly that mary is the mother of God." It says plainly that mary is the mother of Elizabeth's Lord, who is Jesus, fully God and fully man. No where does it say that she is the mother of God.

 

[Benedicta00]

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Yes. We are all here to be used by God. He has created everything and everyone for HIS purpose. Not all people realize god's purpose in their lives because not all individuals recognize God's soveriegnty over their lives.

It is no insult to be used by God, and in fact it is an honor for everyone who serves Him to be used by Him.

And does everyone go along with God’s purpose or do some do their own will instead?

 

[Ainesis]

And does everyone go along with God’s purpose or do some do their own will instead?

Hi Shelb5,

Please note the statement from my comments above

Not all people realize god's purpose in their lives because not all individuals recognize God's soveriegnty over their lives.

Some people surely choose their own will over His. This is what I meant above.

But that does not change the fact that we are all called to be vessels fit for the Master to use.

I am somewhat shocked because people talk about being vessels and being used as if it is somehow demeaning, when we should be honored. And regardless of how we "feel" about it, it is in fact the calling of God to be vessels fit for His use.

 

[Oblio]

We are all here to be used by God. He has created everything and everyone for HIS purpose. Not all people realize god's purpose in their lives because not all individuals recognize God's soveriegnty over their lives.

It is no insult to be used by God, and in fact it is an honor for everyone who serves Him to be used by Him.

My employer is sovereign over me, and uses me to it's purpose. But everything I do in my employment is of my own free will in cooperation with my employer.

No where does it say that she is the mother of God.

Do you not equivocate Lord Jesus with God, especially considering the author and his audience.

 

[Oblio]

We are all here to be used by God. He has created everything and everyone for HIS purpose. Not all people realize god's purpose in their lives because not all individuals recognize God's soveriegnty over their lives.

It is no insult to be used by God, and in fact it is an honor for everyone who serves Him to be used by Him.

My employer is sovereign over me, and uses me to it's purpose. But everything I do in my employment is of my own free will in cooperation with my employer.

No where does it say that she is the mother of God.

Do you not equivocate Lord Jesus with God, especially considering the author and his audience ?

 

[Ainesis]

My employer is sovereign over me, and uses me to it's purpose. But everything I do in my employment is of my own free will in cooperation with my employer.

Which by your own confession does not prevent you from being used. It only means you are used willingly. I might also suggest you get another employer.

Do you not equivocate Lord Jesus with God, especially considering the author and his audience ?

Of course the Lord Jesus is God, just as much as He is man. Both are equally important and inseparable because it is the beauty of His existence that makes our salvation possible. It took God's Son to lay down a sinless life. It took a man to pay the penalty equated to men for sin. I cannot look at one aspect of who Christ is to the exclusion of the other.

 

[thereselittleflower]

No it does not "say plainly that mary is the mother of God." It says plainly that mary is the mother of Elizabeth's Lord, who is Jesus, fully God and fully man. No where does it say that she is the mother of God.

And just who do you think Elizabeth's Lord is?

Luk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


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The translators have CAPITALIZED the word "Lord" and when this is done, it is indeed referring to God.




Here is Strong's

G2962




κύριος

kurios

koo'-ree-os

From κῦροςkuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.




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It is the same word used here translated God:

Act 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.



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It is the same word used here of God

2Th 3:16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.




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When the word is not referring to God, it is UNcapitalized . . all lower case . . such as here when referring to a HUMAN RULER:

Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.



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And here, the phrase "My lord" as we see in the greeting of Elizabeth, with the word "lord" UNcapitalized when speaking of an earthly ruler in a parable of Jesus:

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


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And of a actual earthly ruler - a king - and not just any king, but of Caesar himself - worshipped as a god!:

Act 25:26 Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.


​

So we see that the translators have clearly understood that Elizabeth was calling the babe Mary carried in her womb GOD and brought attention to this disntinction by Capitalizing "Lord".


So yes, Elizabeth did effectively and indeed call Mary the Mother of God.


Peace in Him!

 

[Ainesis]

The "Lord" is exactly who I said He was.

Of course the Lord Jesus is God, just as much as He is man.

Elisabeth was not referring to God the Father, but Jesus who - unlike the Father - is both fully God and man. He IS our Lord whom mary was carrying.

So, please take no offense when I decline to get into yet another battle with you over semantics tlf. I think my response about who the "Lord" was in this text is straightforward enough. I think it is a waste of both of our times to continue nitpicking when we both acknowledge there is a communication gap between us. As such, I am choosing to remove myself from these.

Thanks

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Shelb5,

Please note the statement from my comments above


Some people surely choose their own will over His. This is what I meant above.

But that does not change the fact that we are all called to be vessels fit for the Master to use.

I am somewhat shocked because people talk about being vessels and being used as if it is somehow demeaning, when we should be honored. And regardless of how we "feel" about it, it is in fact the calling of God to be vessels fit for His use.

Perhaps it would help to understand that even though perhaps you would never see it in this way, many times we have run into others who have no problem looking at Mary as someone merely "used" by God to bring Jesus into the world and then set aside, downplaying her role to something that is subhuman almost . .

Yes, God uses us, but yes it is by our free will and with our full cooperation.

Many times we have encountered instances when people speak about Mary saying "God just used Mary" they present her as though she was simply being a passive 'vessel' with no emotions, no thoughts, no will, etc . . somehow sub human (though they would never come out and say it that way when this is pointed out) . .

And so when we hear "used" we are not reacting to the idea that Mary was a vessel, for we do indeed believe she was . . but that the idea that, for some, Mary being a vessel somehow makes her less to some than she really is, and it demeans her. . (which you have pointed out above instead of it having a demeaning connotation, it should be one of honor).

Catholics teach she is a vessel of honor . . so it is not the idea of being a vessel that is the issue . . In fact, here are ways we describe her formally recognizing she is indeed a vessel of God:

Spiritual vessel

Vessel of honor

Singular vessel of devotion

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So no, we do not react to the word "vessel" as demeaning . .but to the fact that there are those who use it in a substandard manner, effectively demeaning its full and real meaning.



I am glad to hear that you recognize how very active a participant Mary actually was, as a vessel of honor, in the role God chose to give her.





Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi Shelb5,

Please note the statement from my comments above


Some people surely choose their own will over His. This is what I meant above.

But that does not change the fact that we are all called to be vessels fit for the Master to use.

I am somewhat shocked because people talk about being vessels and being used as if it is somehow demeaning, when we should be honored. And regardless of how we "feel" about it, it is in fact the calling of God to be vessels fit for His use.

How do you equate being asked to be the mother of God with what we are all called by God to do? Are you saying that Mary’s yes is not worthy of honor?