Roberts Liardon

Christina M · Aug 22, 2006

But it IS up to us, iafic!

God is never wrong... if there is trouble it is US... not God... if someone tells us that, they are showing us the UTMOST OF LOVE.... even if it hurts.....

we are either....

lacking knowledge
walking in sin
being in rebellion
being ignorant
lacking faith

whatever...... it can't be God... so it HAS to be us...

we should always look to us first and not be afraid to admit we don't know what we need to know and seek after wisdom.....

Gloria Copeland always says: "When people say 'I have done all I know to do', it only means they don't know all they need to know to do!"

Proverbs 1:7
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Only fools despise wisdom and discipline.

iafic · Aug 22, 2006

Christina M said:
But it IS up to us, iafic!

God is never wrong... if there is trouble it is US... not God...

I never once said it was God.

Christina M said:
we are either....

lacking knowledge
walking in sin
being in rebellion
being ignorant
lacking faith

or under warefare.

Christina M said:
whatever...... it can't be God... so it HAS to be us...

or the devil, or people...

you are putting a lot of limits out there. When I was in Mexico, we brought hundreds to the Lord, gave, raised the dead...and then a demon showed up in our room that night and manifested. He attacked us, even pinning my friend to her bed.

Tell me...did we sin to bring that on us? Was our faith insufficent that week? Were we being rebellious?

when the leader of YWAM woke up from all the commotion...she JOINED us in defeating the devil. she didn't stand there and try to figure out what we did wrong and where we missed it.

Please, why is my point so hard to understand?

PastorJoey · Aug 22, 2006

Oh man. Have we struck a chord.

Christina M · Aug 22, 2006

iafic said:
Please, why is my point so hard to understand?

Dear iafic.. your point isn't hard to understand... it's just that several of your posts have spoken of offense taken when people have said what could be the problem... like when you called KCM.....

Yes! One of the reasons can be attack from the enemy... especially when you are doing God's work mightily.... I just sold my business after 18 years so I can do ministry full time... the same week my husband was laid off from his job that was to be our sole income....... it's been four weeks..... talk about attack!

But we are still open to where WE may be off... what WE may not know..... what schemes of the enemy WE might not be aware of....... since God cannot do wrong... it has to be us who takes action.... and we cannot take offense when some tell us something we may be off on....... no matter how much it hurts....

People have told us it is our fault.. we haven't prayed enough... we haven't sowed enough.... since we are "between churches" we've been told he lost his job because we don't have a home church right now..... etc etc etc... We take what is the meat and spit out the bones....... without taking offense at those who are speaking wisdom to us.

iafic · Aug 22, 2006

Christina M said:
Dear iafic.. your point isn't hard to understand... it's just that several of your posts have spoken of offense taken when people have said what could be the problem... like when you called KCM.....

Yes! One of the reasons can be attack from the enemy... especially when you are doing God's work mightily.... I just sold my business after 18 years so I can do ministry full time... my husband was laid off from his job that was to be our sole income....... it's been four weeks..... talk about attack!

But we are still open to where WE may be off... what WE may not know..... what schemes of the enemy WE might not be aware of....... since God cannot do wrong... it has to be us who takes action.... and we cannot take offense when some tell us something we may be off on....... no matter how much it hurts....

And it's all on you. By what I am hearing, I cannot join with you and pray and believe with you for overcoming power to prevail....it's all your fault and I won't "agree in prayer" for your victory.

Christina M · Aug 22, 2006

iafic said:
And it's all on you. By what I am hearing, I cannot join with you and pray and believe with you for overcoming power to prevail....it's all your fault and I won't "agree in prayer" for your victory.

???????

Not sure where you are getting that?????

iafic · Aug 22, 2006

Christina M said:
???????

Not sure where you are getting that?????

i am getting that from the many posts who keep telling me I am wrong when I am trying to only make the point that says "stop condemning people for having a problem, always faulting them. just open up and pray WITH them." Read my posts again....this has been my point and theme the whole time. And I have had nothing but "no Holly, your wrong...it is ALL YOU!!!! You are either lacking faith or rebelling..."

iafic · Aug 22, 2006

Christina M said:
"Well, no wonder that's what you have now, listen to your mouth! It sure isn't lined up with the Word! It's lined up with the problem!"

OUCH :o Man, it hurt..

What if they were wrong? truth may hurt, but what if it isn't truth? maybe when I was going throught the warefare that I was going through, they came up with things that were far from me?

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

iafic said:
i am getting that from the many posts who keep telling me I am wrong when I am trying to only make the point that says "stop condemning people for having a problem, always faulting them. just open up and pray WITH them." Read my posts again....this has been my point and theme the whole time. And I have had nothing but "no Holly, your wrong...it is ALL YOU!!!! You are either lacking faith or rebelling..."

I understand what you're getting at and agree with you in principle.

There are all sorts of people who try to disect your situation without hearing from God on the issue. You are right that many who say they are WOF judge before they offer a prayer for you. It always interests me how some will lay all the responsibity at you feet without ever having prayed for the situation or you or with you. I called a prominent WOF ministry over a problem and the girl on the other end of the phone started reading scriptures of a pre-printed script which had no bearing on the problem. She suggested I read one of Joyce Meyer's book and got put off when I told her I'd already read the book. She accused me of not wanting to hear her.

Most of these judgments arise from comparisons to situations in their own lives or others they know, or stories they've heard. I also agree with you that the words you speak are not responsible for everything in your life. I've heard some WOF leaders say, without qualification, that and it is wrong.

I'm 6' tall and it has nothing to do with any words I've ever spoken. I was born a male, Did I confess that on myself before I was born. I was adopted by two people without my consent. Did my words cause this. I was born with brown hair and eyes. Could I have changed my eye color by my confession. Are all people who are attacked by the devil in error. I think not. Some of these types of statements, although provoking, put people off.

If I don't believe the negative words I say, will I receive the results, even though the Bible says I'll receive what I beliefe? I'll receive what I believe, not what I confess. Only if I believe what I confess, will I get it.

Someone said they struck a cord with you. Be at peace, you're not alone. It struck a cord with me too.

PastorMike · Aug 23, 2006

one of the biggest problems that wof need to sort out is people are afraid to come and get help for their problems because if they tell anyone their problem they are accused of having no faith or a bad confession...

at what point do we ask for help and just get help without all the judging and condemnation?

Jesus said "if two or three agree in prayer.." but if we go and try to get help we don't get agreement we get condemnation...

I know people who are hurting and afraid to say anything because of being judged... this shouldn't be, where is the compassion...

Those who are strong should bear up those who are weak not condemn or judge them...

now I am not saying this of anyone here, I am talking about wof in general and situations that I know personally...

I just think this is something that needs to change in wof circles and if your church has this sorted then it is probably one of the few...

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

PreacherMike said:
one of the biggest problems that wof need to sort out is people are afraid to come and get help for their problems because if they tell anyone their problem they are accused of having no faith or a bad confession...

at what point do we ask for help and just get help without all the judging and condemnation?

Jesus said "if two or three agree in prayer.." but if we go and try to get help we don't get agreement we get condemnation...

I know people who are hurting and afraid to say anything because of being judged... this shouldn't be, where is the compassion...

Those who are strong should bear up those who are weak not condemn or judge them...

now I am not saying this of anyone here, I am talking about wof in general and situations that I know personally...

I just think this is something that needs to change in wof circles and if your church has this sorted then it is probably one of the few...

Amen Brother!

PastorMike · Aug 23, 2006

PreacherMike said:
one of the biggest problems that wof need to sort out is people are afraid to come and get help for their problems because if they tell anyone their problem they are accused of having no faith or a bad confession...

at what point do we ask for help and just get help without all the judging and condemnation?

Jesus said "if two or three agree in prayer.." but if we go and try to get help we don't get agreement we get condemnation...

I know people who are hurting and afraid to say anything because of being judged... this shouldn't be, where is the compassion...

Those who are strong should bear up those who are weak not condemn or judge them...

now I am not saying this of anyone here, I am talking about wof in general and situations that I know personally...

I just think this is something that needs to change in wof circles and if your church has this sorted then it is probably one of the few...

BTW I should clarify that I wasn't taking sides here just making an observation about WoF in general...

Christina M · Aug 23, 2006

But....

at some point we all need to get over being offended when we are wrong.. and learn from it.... move on and go further in the Lord.

If we are wrong or off.....(for whatever reason) .....because we are human and subject to fallibility.... we should be open to learning and changing....

Yes! It is hard to hear.... believe me. But, at the same time..... injections hurt, but they provide the medicine that heals... being told you are wrong is not necessarily a bad thing.

I look at what I hear from a minister as a "Holy Ghost Injection of Truth" and bear up under it.... I may kick and scream... but ultimately, if it is the right minister (like KCM, Duplantis, Savelle, Meyer, etc), I know that I might as well give in.... as they have walked the same road and succeeded.

My other choice is to say "well, I have reasons for being this way..." or "I did my best and it still didn't work".. or "Hmmm? The Word says this is so, but it ain't happening, so it must not be true."

I refuse to choose anything other that believing His Word... and change my beliefs to line up with His Word.

PastorMike · Aug 23, 2006

I agree with you Christina... but sometimes I think we feel that all believers should be where we are at and this often is not the case... and we need to help them...

if we isolate them we will never help them but if we comfort them they will keep coming back for counsel...

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

Christina M said:
But....

at some point we all need to get over being offended when we are wrong.. and learn from it.... move on and go further in the Lord.

If we are wrong or off.....(for whatever reason) .....because we are human and subject to fallibility.... we should be open to learning and changing....

Yes! It is hard to hear.... believe me. But, at the same time..... injections hurt, but they provide the medicine that heals... being told you are wrong is not necessarily a bad thing.

I look at what I hear from a minister as a "Holy Ghost Injection of Truth" and bear up under it.... I may kick and scream... but ultimately, if it is the right minister (like KCM, Duplantis, Savelle, Meyer, etc), I know that I might as well give in.... as they have walked the same road and succeeded.

My other choice is to say "well, I have reasons for being this way..." or "I did my best and it still didn't work".. or "Hmmm? The Word says this is so, but it ain't happening, so it must not be true."

I refuse to choose anything other that believing His Word... and change my beliefs to line up with His Word.

at some point we all need to get over being offended when we are wrong.. and learn from it.... move on and go further in the Lord.

Maybe we need to learn not to be so offensive.

If we are wrong or off.....(for whatever reason) .....because we are human and subject to fallibility.... we should be open to learning and changing....

I didn't hear anyone suggest otherwise

Yes! It is hard to hear.... believe me. But, at the same time..... injections hurt, but they provide the medicine that heals... being told you are wrong is not necessarily a bad thing.

Maybe someone has an issue and they aren't wrong at all. This seems to be a real sticking point here.

I look at what I hear from a minister as a "Holy Ghost Injection of Truth" and bear up under it.... I may kick and scream... but ultimately, if it is the right minister (like KCM, Duplantis, Savelle, Meyer, etc), I know that I might as well give in.... as they have walked the same road and succeeded.

I think you've completely missed the [point. Now I'm trying to be truthful here and not hurt your feelings, but you are mixing apples and oranges.

My other choice is to say "well, I have reasons for being this way..." or "I did my best and it still didn't work".. or "Hmmm? The Word says this is so, but it ain't happening, so it must not be true."

Well let's see, my sister hates me because she chooses to. Is that my fault? I know it isn't.

I refuse to choose anything other that believing His Word... and change my beliefs to line up with His Word.

Again no one has suggested anything else. That you this being said by Mike me or iflc amazes me.

iflc was just opening her heart and was, for the most part, not heard. IMHO

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

PreacherMike said:
I agree with you Christina... but sometimes I think we feel that all believers should be where we are at and this often is not the case... and we need to help them...

if we isolate them we will never help them but if we comfort them they will keep coming back for counsel...

Preach on Brother!

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

James 3:1-3
3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

How about this for all professing WOFers here. Confess this until it is true in your life.

In the name of Jesus, I say I'm a perfect man because I offend not in word and able also to bridle my whole body.

God_Owned · Aug 23, 2006

If there is one thing I've run into with my fellow Woofers is that they seem indifferent towers people. I think this is prevalent and cripples the message.

I'd like to hear some preaching on this verse.

Romans 12:14-16
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Christina M · Aug 23, 2006

Coddling never helped me....

Telling me the truth did.

Doesn't mean you can't put your arm around someone and empathize with them... or pay their electric bill .... or buy them groceries. Walking it out with people is needed.... but we all have to face the truth.

At some point, to grow up we have to stop being coddled. ....and face hard facts about ourselves.

Not facing these facts about ourselves cripples us and the Body.

iafic · Aug 23, 2006

and once again, my point being that if i am living righteously and doing a great work for God and I go under attack by the devil or people...I am sick to death of the church standing back and judging me...spending time trying to figure out where I went wrong, instead of encouraging, edifying, praying and building me up AS THE SCRIPTURES say the church is for. Maybe not everyone needs to be straightened out.

I will repeat...Jesus did not come to condemn the world, why do Christians think they should?

And yes, WHILE UNDER THE WORD OF THE HOLY GHOST only...I often tell someone where they went wrong in a crisis. I am not even diagreeing with that. But prayer and agreement comes 1st.

Roberts Liardon

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