Righteousness through Faith -vs- Righteousness through the Law

[Don Maurer]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

B Griffin,
If I might take up a discussion with you concerning the OP? I would agree that there is no righteousness by law and I agree with the OP with one possible question. My concern is your last statement. When you say "So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine," I think there is a biblical way to "intermingle" law and grace. That way is not to see righteousness by law, but I do see grace in law. Let me try to explain.

Certainly the Law brought curses (see Deuteronomy 28 and Galatians 3:10-14) and not righteousness. However, after the curses and disobedience were promises of grace and obedience. A specific text on this would be Deuteronomy 30:6. But let me first mention Deuteronomy 29:4

Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.​

A reason for Israel coming under the curses is their inability to change their own heart. This is a human problem. Original sin has left us totally depraved and incapable of changing our own hearts. However, the promises of Deuteronomy 30:6 brings grace into the picture of obeying the law.

“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."​

The above text is all about grace. God circumcises the heart of Israel to "love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
Then, in Deuteronomy 30:8 we see obedience to the Law after this heart circumcision. In verse 8 we read,

"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."​

So then, obedience to the law is not something that is beyond the circumcised heart. After saying this, let me give a disqualifier. I do not think this is referring to sinlessness. David was a man after God's own heart and sinned with Bathsheba. David loved the Law (Psa 119) but in Psa 32:1 he is blessed by the fact that his transgressions are forgiven (Quoted in Rom 4:7-8, a passage on justification by faith alone.).

CONCLUSION I would draw the conclusion that there is a relationship between grace and law. That relationship is not that justification includes any aspect of law. Not even sanctification is dependent upon keeping law. Rather the opposite is true, that keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, we keep law only by the grace of God, and keeping law is the work of God in the human soul. We already have regeneration that enables this, and then keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, there is an "intermingling" of grace and law, but keeping law is dependent upon the grace of God.

Fair?

 

[childeye 2]

B Griffin,
If I might take up a discussion with you concerning the OP? I would agree that there is no righteousness by law and I agree with the OP with one possible question. My concern is your last statement. When you say "So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine," I think there is a biblical way to "intermingle" law and grace. That way is not to see righteousness by law, but I do see grace in law. Let me try to explain.

Certainly the Law brought curses (see Deuteronomy 28 and Galatians 3:10-14) and not righteousness. However, after the curses and disobedience were promises of grace and obedience. A specific text on this would be Deuteronomy 30:6. But let me first mention Deuteronomy 29:4

Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.​

A reason for Israel coming under the curses is their inability to change their own heart. This is a human problem. Original sin has left us totally depraved and incapable of changing our own hearts. However, the promises of Deuteronomy 30:6 brings grace into the picture of obeying the law.

“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."​

The above text is all about grace. God circumcises the heart of Israel to "love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
Then, in Deuteronomy 30:8 we see obedience to the Law after this heart circumcision. In verse 8 we read,

"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."​

So then, obedience to the law is not something that is beyond the circumcised heart. After saying this, let me give a disqualifier. I do not think this is referring to sinlessness. David was a man after God's own heart and sinned with Bathsheba. David loved the Law (Psa 119) but in Psa 32:1 he is blessed by the fact that his transgressions are forgiven (Quoted in Rom 4:7-8, a passage on justification by faith alone.).

CONCLUSION I would draw the conclusion that there is a relationship between grace and law. That relationship is not that justification includes any aspect of law. Not even sanctification is dependent upon keeping law. Rather the opposite is true, that keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, we keep law only by the grace of God, and keeping law is the work of God in the human soul. We already have regeneration that enables this, and then keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, there is an "intermingling" of grace and law, but keeping law is dependent upon the grace of God.

Fair?

This post reminds me of how the flesh is weak, and that we must Love our neighbor as ourselves accordingly, and that we will be judged according to what measure we use to judge others, which is further qualified with "the merciful shall receive mercy".

 

[Guojing]

And yes, I am saying that we enjoy the blessings that are in Christ that were promised to Israel and Judah. You do know it was always a faith-based test that would determine who are the descendents of Abraham, right?

I notice, even when you said yes, you avoided saying that you believe we are Israel, which was my question to you. Do you believe that you are Israel just because you descended from Abraham?

As for your point about blessing, you have to be clear, we enjoy a specific blessing that was given to Abraham, because we are in Christ.

If you read Paul properly, you will know that.

Abraham received righteousness by faith before he was circumcised, that is true (Romans 4:9-12).

Thus, thru Christ, we who are uncircumcised gentiles, can also enjoy the blessing (singular, Galatians 3:14) of being righteousness that is imputed purely by faith and without works, so in that sense, Abraham is our father of faith.

But just because we are Abraham is our father of faith, it does not follow that we are therefore Israel.

Israel came from Jacob.

Abraham has many descendants other than Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah's passing and had children after that.

 

[Guojing]

2) Every verse in the Bible that contains the words "new covenant" is speaking of the same "new covenant".

That is true, I can agree.

But it does not mean we can therefore substitute the meaning of covenant to replace the word testament, just because both come from the same Greek word, which was my point.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[pasifika]

There is nothing in Hebrews that stated that the New Covenant has begun. Its all future tense.

If you disagree, show me the passages that made you think its obvious

a covenant takes effect with shedding of blood.. Heb 9:13. NC already begun by Christ shedding His blood.

 

[Guojing]

a covenant takes effect with shedding of blood.. Heb 9:13. NC already begun by Christ shedding His blood.

Read the rest of Hebrews 9, and do you not notice they used the term "testament" in the KJV?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[pasifika]

Read the rest of Hebrews 9, and do you not notice they used the term "testament" in the KJV?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

so what is your understanding of "covenant" and "testament"? NIV use "covenant" which to me is much more sense since the writer is comparing two covenants with Jesus and Moses. See verse 19 of Heb 9 where Moses is mentioned proclaiming the law and use blood of animals ie goats/bulls as the "blood of the covenant"(verse 20). so, covenant is more sense.

 

[Guojing]

so what is your understanding of "covenant" and "testament"? NIV use "covenant" which to me is much more sense since the writer is comparing two covenants with Jesus and Moses. See verse 19 of Heb 9 where Moses is mentioned proclaiming the law and use blood of animals ie goats/bulls as the "blood of the covenant"(verse 20). so, covenant is more sense.

A covenant is a contract between 2 parties, both parties must agree to the conditions stated before it can begin.

If you read Exodus 24:6-8, the old covenant did not start for Israel until all Israel accepted the terms of the covenant, which is to obey all that the Lord required of them.

So likewise, the new covenant could not have begun for Israel until they all believe Jesus is their Messiah. They rejected that offer by crucifying Christ (Matthew 27:25, Acts 2:36, Acts 3:14-15), and they still reject the Holy Spirit by stoning Stephen (Acts 7:54-58), leading to their fall and salvation for us gentiles (Romans 11:11)

As prophesied by Paul, Israel will only accept Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the Tribulation (Romans 11:25-28), that is when the New Covenant will finally begin for them.

On the other hand, a testament is a will, which can only takes place after the death of the maker of the will, and requires nothing from the receiver.

If your parents will a house to you on their death, when they die, you get the house regardless of whatever you do.

We in the Body of Christ are under the New Testament.

 

[B Griffin]

B Griffin,
If I might take up a discussion with you concerning the OP? I would agree that there is no righteousness by law and I agree with the OP with one possible question. My concern is your last statement. When you say "So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine," I think there is a biblical way to "intermingle" law and grace. That way is not to see righteousness by law, but I do see grace in law. Let me try to explain.

Certainly the Law brought curses (see Deuteronomy 28 and Galatians 3:10-14) and not righteousness. However, after the curses and disobedience were promises of grace and obedience. A specific text on this would be Deuteronomy 30:6. But let me first mention Deuteronomy 29:4

Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.​

A reason for Israel coming under the curses is their inability to change their own heart. This is a human problem. Original sin has left us totally depraved and incapable of changing our own hearts. However, the promises of Deuteronomy 30:6 brings grace into the picture of obeying the law.

“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."​

The above text is all about grace. God circumcises the heart of Israel to "love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

My first impression of Deut 30:6 without re-studying it is that it appears to be a prophesy about Israel's salvation when they eventually turn to faith in Christ and enjoy the benefits of having a new heart through spiritual birth that completely aligns them with God. Then I went and re-read the surrounding passages again and I saw evidence that this is indeed a plausible interpretation. Like you said, though, I don't see anything in there that says they would get a new heart through obedience, but that they would become rightly aligned with God through the gift of new hearts.

Then, in Deuteronomy 30:8 we see obedience to the Law after this heart circumcision. In verse 8 we read,

"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."​

So then, obedience to the law is not something that is beyond the circumcised heart. After saying this, let me give a disqualifier. I do not think this is referring to sinlessness. David was a man after God's own heart and sinned with Bathsheba. David loved the Law (Psa 119) but in Psa 32:1 he is blessed by the fact that his transgressions are forgiven (Quoted in Rom 4:7-8, a passage on justification by faith alone.).

You are rightly contrasting obedience to the law with our predisposition to sin. If a newly circumcised heart with the sinfulness of the flesh cut away from it (Col 2:11-15) then engages again in sin, how is the circumcised state any different than the uncircumcised state? This truism drives us towards the understanding that circumcision of the heart is about Christ living in us, making us one with Him in spirit, and making His righteousness our righteousness. The fact that it does not always reveal itself in the flesh does not detract from the fact that the righteousness we have in the new man is "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). The regenerated spirit enjoys sinless perfection, but total sinless perfection will not be realized until we shed these cloths of flesh. Then it will be revealed what we have become in Christ, and we will see Him as He is.

CONCLUSION I would draw the conclusion that there is a relationship between grace and law. That relationship is not that justification includes any aspect of law. Not even sanctification is dependent upon keeping law. Rather the opposite is true, that keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, we keep law only by the grace of God, and keeping law is the work of God in the human soul. We already have regeneration that enables this, and then keeping law is the result of sanctification. So then, there is an "intermingling" of grace and law, but keeping law is dependent upon the grace of God.

Fair?

Yes, I do see it the same way, with the caviats I mentioned above.

 

[B Griffin]

I notice, even when you said yes, you avoided saying that you believe we are Israel, which was my question to you. Do you believe that you are Israel just because you descended from Abraham?

Yes, spiritually. Don't know if he is my ancestor physically.

As for your point about blessing, you have to be clear, we enjoy a specific blessing that was given to Abraham, because we are in Christ.

If you read Paul properly, you will know that.

Abraham received righteousness by faith before he was circumcised, that is true (Romans 4:9-12).

Thus, thru Christ, we who are uncircumcised gentiles, can also enjoy the blessing (singular, Galatians 3:14) of being righteousness that is imputed purely by faith and without works, so in that sense, Abraham is our father of faith.

I agree with these statements.

But just because we are Abraham is our father of faith, it does not follow that we are therefore Israel.

Israel came from Jacob.

Abraham has many descendants other than Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah's passing and had children after that.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Ro 9:6–8)​

​

I suppose a literal point of view could even accept that "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." (Ro 9:8)

 

[B Griffin]

That is true, I can agree.

But it does not mean we can therefore substitute the meaning of covenant to replace the word testament, just because both come from the same Greek word, which was my point.

Is that what you are saying?

I agree with you that a Greek word can have more than one meaning. In English it is the same. For instance, the word "foot" can be used to represent different things besides the apendige which includes toes. We may talk about the foot of the bed. Or we may say "the shoe is on the other foot", which really has nothing to do with feet, but is about changed circumstances.

 

[B Griffin]

Read the rest of Hebrews 9, and do you not notice they used the term "testament" in the KJV?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Heb 9:11–15)​

It is pretty clear that this paragraph is a continuation of the discussion that contrasts the old covenant and the new covenant, one being a shaddow, and the other being the substance. In this instance, Christ's sacrifice is the substance, the blood of bulls and goats are the shaddow. The sanctuary's innner room (the holiest of holies) are the shaddow, and heaven (the Most Holy Place in the universe and beyond) is the substance. The high priests are the shaddow, and Christ is the substance. The sanctification of the animal sacrifices are the shaddow, and the sanctification of Christ's sacrifice is the substance.

 

[B Griffin]

A covenant is a contract between 2 parties, both parties must agree to the conditions stated before it can begin.

If you read Exodus 24:6-8, the old covenant did not start for Israel until all Israel accepted the terms of the covenant, which is to obey all that the Lord required of them.

So likewise, the new covenant could not have begun for Israel until they all believe Jesus is their Messiah. They rejected that offer by crucifying Christ (Matthew 27:25, Acts 2:36, Acts 3:14-15), and they still reject the Holy Spirit by stoning Stephen (Acts 7:54-58), leading to their fall and salvation for us gentiles (Romans 11:11)

As prophesied by Paul, Israel will only accept Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the Tribulation (Romans 11:25-28), that is when the New Covenant will finally begin for them.

On the other hand, a testament is a will, which can only takes place after the death of the maker of the will, and requires nothing from the receiver.

If your parents will a house to you on their death, when they die, you get the house regardless of whatever you do.

We in the Body of Christ are under the New Testament.

I agree with most of this, just not the part that differentiates the salvation we have in Christ with the salvation that will eventually come to Israel when they turn to Christ.

 

[Guojing]

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Ro 9:6–8)​

​

I suppose a literal point of view could even accept that "those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." (Ro 9:8)

Paul is not talking about us gentiles in that passage.

Romans 9 began with an address to the Jewish brethern of Paul.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The non-believing Israel were boasting in their physical circumcision, because all who descended from the nation were circumcised since 8 days old, they believe that alone qualified as being the true Israel in God's eyes.

Paul thus reminded Israel there that Abraham had 2 sons, one born of the flesh, which is Ishmael, whom God rejected as the child of promise. Only Isaac was considered that child of promise.

Thus, he is saying that, as you said "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.".

BOTH Isaac and Ishmael were Abraham's children and BOTH were physically circumcised but only Isaac was the child of promise.

Thus being a child of Abraham AND having being physical circumcised does not guarantee a Jew to be God's offspring, true Israel in this case.

 

[Guojing]

I agree with most of this, just not the part that differentiates the salvation we have in Christ with the salvation that will eventually come to Israel when they turn to Christ.

Paul himself said in Romans 11, if you are willing to understand what he said literally.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We in the Body of Christ have salvation NOW because of Israel's fall. (Ephesians 1:7)

When the entire nation of Israel believed Jesus as their Messiah, thus receiving their salvation thru the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:12), it will be the beginning of the millennial kingdom, where we gentiles will be blessed even more (how much more their fulness)

 

[B Griffin]

Paul is not talking about us gentiles in that passage.

Romans 9 began with an address to the Jewish brethern of Paul.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The non-believing Israel were boasting in their physical circumcision, because all who descended from the nation were circumcised since 8 days old, they believe that alone qualified as being the true Israel in God's eyes.

This is not true. They relied on genealogies.

Paul thus reminded Israel there that Abraham had 2 sons, one born of the flesh, which is Ishmael, whom God rejected as the child of promise. Only Isaac was considered that child of promise.

Thus, he is saying that, as you said "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.".

BOTH Isaac and Ishmael were Abraham's children and BOTH were physically circumcised but only Isaac was the child of promise.

Thus being a child of Abraham AND having being physical circumcised does not guarantee a Jew to be God's offspring, true Israel in this case.

This is not true either.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Ga 3:26–29)​

We are all offspring of God through faith in Christ (i.e., when we first put our trust in Christ, He came to live in us, giving birth to us by His Spirit, and bringing us to life spiritually). There is no distinction between us as to our heratige, nationality, ancestry, social status, or gender. We all have the same status with Christ living in our hearts. If He lives in your heart, Guojing, then you personally are Abraham's seed (i.e., offspring, descendant, child, heir). This is true for every person in whom Christ lives regardless of any other characteristic.

 

[B Griffin]

Paul himself said in Romans 11, if you are willing to understand what he said literally.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We in the Body of Christ have salvation NOW because of Israel's fall. (Ephesians 1:7)

When the entire nation of Israel believed Jesus as their Messiah, thus receiving their salvation thru the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:12), it will be the beginning of the millennial kingdom, where we gentiles will be blessed even more (how much more their fulness)

I agree with all of this except I don't see the connection between the return of Israel to faith and the beginning of the millennial kingdom. I'm not saying there is no connection, I'm just saying I don't see any connection. Do you know of any Scriptures that literally tie these two events together?

 

[Guojing]

This is not true. They relied on genealogies.

Its from a literal reading of the beginning of Romans 9, in order to understand who Paul was speaking to in Romans 9:6-8.

If you want to ignore the context, that is your choice.

This is not true either.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Ga 3:26–29)​

We are all offspring of God through faith in Christ (i.e., when we first put our trust in Christ, He came to live in us, giving birth to us by His Spirit, and bringing us to life spiritually). There is no distinction between us as to our heratige, nationality, ancestry, social status, or gender. We all have the same status with Christ living in our hearts. If He lives in your heart, Guojing, then you personally are Abraham's seed (i.e., offspring, descendant, child, heir). This is true for every person in whom Christ lives regardless of any other characteristic.

That passage in Galatians 3 is talking about us in the Body of Christ, a new creation, separate from Israel

In the Body of Christ, you are correct, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

But Israel consist of only the circumcised Jews (Esther 8:17).

As I have said to you many times already, just because one is Abraham's offspring, it does not automatically follow that one belongs to Israel.

Israel came from Jacob. Other than Ishmael, Abraham have many children that are not thru Sarah, none of them will be considered members of Israel (Genesis 25:1-4)

I have no idea why you keep holding on to your illogical reasoning that Abraham's offspring are automatically Israel.

 

[Guojing]

I agree with all of this except I don't see the connection between the return of Israel to faith and the beginning of the millennial kingdom. I'm not saying there is no connection, I'm just saying I don't see any connection. Do you know of any Scriptures that literally tie these two events together?

You never heard of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy? Why do you think Zecharias prophesied, thru the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:67-79?

Zechariah 8:23, Isaiah 60:1-3, and the various other passages all talk about gentiles being saved thru the rise of Israel.

All these major OT prophets are saying them in the midst of Israel's rebelling against God.