Righteousness through Faith -vs- Righteousness through the Law

[B Griffin]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

All have sinned Rom 3:23 so all all are doomed to the lake of fire apart from the Gospel.

But UNDER The Gospel we not only have forgiveness of sins - we also have the "NEW Birth" and the "New Covenant" where the LAw of God "is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-12. Such that Paul says "our faith ESTABLISHES the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

No wonder Paul says in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
No wonder John says "the saints keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

where "the first commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2

 

[Soyeong]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

Character traits are not something that are earned as a wage, but rather the only way to attain a character trait is through with that we ought to be someone who practices that trait. For example, it is not the case that someone is required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works in order to earn their courageousness as a wage, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to practice courageousness, however, it is contradictory for someone to be courageous while not being someone who practices courageousness, and the same is true of righteousness and other character traits. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to earn our righteousness as a wage. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe God raised Jesus from the dead, so citing Romans 10:8 completely undermines the distinction that you are trying to force. Verses that deny that we can can earn our righteousness by our obedience to God's law do not establish that earning our righteousness is a thing, but rather they are denying that it is a thing. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. God's law is God's word and it is contradictory to think that we are made righteous by faith in God's word made flesh, but not by faith in God's word.

God does does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

 

[RandyPNW]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

All men can do righteousness, but are not thereby able to obtain Eternal Life. The righteous obedience that obtains Eternal Life is the choice to embrace Christ for life, ie as Lord and Savior. To choose not just to obey God on occasion, as it serves our will, but to serve God regularly as our choice of worship is more than just "doing righteousness." It is also doing righteousness in covenant with Christ, trusting him to cover our sins.

To separate Salvation and Righteousness does a terrible disservice to the testimony of Christ, whose example was designed to show mankind what righteousness looked like so that all would obey it. To say that faith exists without righteousness is to say you can believe in Christ but not embrace him as Lord.

The idea is not to mix faith and the Law of Moses, but rather, to define faith as consisting of the righteousness of Christ, as opposed to what Man can do without embracing the atonement of Christ. All that Israel did under the OT Covenant they did without the atonement of Christ, and as such their works were regarded as their own testimony of righteousness, void of final atonement.

They did have limited righteousness that did not achieve Eternal Life but did obtain covenant relationship with God. But they did not have Christ's testimony of perfection together with his eternal righteousness and rights to resurrection. The point is, Christianity does require righteousness, but only in conjunction with our embrace of Christ's testimony of righteousness linked to his atonement.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

This is a fringe movement but gaining traction until it becomes unsustainable. There is a misunderstanding between the " law" written on stone vs the " law" written in our hearts. Blessings.

 

[Studyman]

Here is a small sampling of verses that contrast righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law.

	Righteousness through Faith​	Righteousness through the Law​
One is within man's grasp, the other is not​	Romans 10:8​	Galatians 3:11a​
One is a free gift, the other is earned​	Romans 5:16​	Romans 4:4​
One needs the grace of Christ's sacrifice, the other does not​	Galatians 2:21a,c​	Galatians 2:21b,c​

Scripture says plainly that righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law are two different things. Yet many people appear to have adopted a definition of righteousness that blends a little faith with a little law. They say things like, "Our rightness with God is through obeying the law, but He will forgive our sins if we repent".

How can they not see that their sins cause them to fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), meaning that they are not righteous on the basis of their deeds? Or how can they not understand that all our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)? We are completeley dependent on the righteousness we receive as a free gift (i.e., new hearts that are completely right with Him) when we first put our trust in Christ because all the righteousness we can muster on our own is not good enough. So let's just agree now to no longer intermingle righteousness through faith and righteousness through the law in our doctrine.

What is missing in this study is the "LAW" which men who were found in sin, were instructed to follow, "Till the SEED Should Come".

This can be easily found by asking the Question, "In the Law of Moses, when a man sinned, what did God instruct that this man should do?

If you are seeking to find God's Truth, you will find that God instructed men who sinned, to bring a goat to the Levite Priest, and kill it before him, and the Priest would take the animal blood, and through this sacrifice provide for the forgiveness of sin. In the Law and Prophets, this is how a man was made righteous "Through or by the Law". (Lev. 4: 27-31)

Of course, those who truly Loved God, and had become as Paul, "Servants to God's Righteousness", understood that the Animal sacrifices were a shadow of the Sacrifice God Himself would make for them. Zacharias, Simeon, the Wise men and Anna all knew of the "Passover Lamb of God" and through Faith in Him, knew who HE was even before HE was born. (See Luke 1&2)

These were Faithful servants of God.

The Pharisees didn't know the Christ when HE came to them. Consider the difference between Zacharias and the Pharisees according to the Scriptures.

Of Zacharias;

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Of the Pharisees;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

So then, was Zacharias Righteous because he took a goat to the Levite Priest, or because HE had faith in God? Ask the same about the Pharisees.

 

[B Griffin]

Faith without works is dead.

No wonder Paul says in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

God's law is God's word and it is contradictory to think that we are made righteous by faith in God's word made flesh, but not by faith in God's word.

To say that faith exists without righteousness is to say you can believe in Christ but not embrace him as Lord.

What is missing in this study is the "LAW" which men who were found in sin, were instructed to follow, "Till the SEED Should Come".

Thank you all for your responses. Let's just start with this one verse and see if we can reach an agreement on it.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. (Ga 2:21)​

Paul embraced God's grace and accepted Christ's sacrifice for his sins. He rejected the contrasting point of view that rightness with God comes through obedience to the law. His reasoning could not be more clear. If rightness with God were possible through obedience to the law, then grace could be swept aside, and Jesus' death on the cross would have been pointless.

Now, let's fast-forward to today. Here we are, at this very moment, debating who among us is right with God. Is it the one who is obedient to God's laws, or is it the one who relies on God's grace and the sacrifice of Christ for his sins? Personally, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." How can there be an argument against that? Everyone knows they are sinners who fall short of the glory of God, right?

 

[RandyPNW]

Thank you all for your responses. Let's just start with this one verse and see if we can reach an agreement on it.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. (Ga 2:21)​

I wrote a bit on this kind of Pauline statement a little while ago. Paul used technical applications of "faith" and "righteousness" to convey something deeper than simple faith and simple righteousness.

I would have to say that simple faith and simple righteousness did in fact come through the Law. But the Law is no longer in effect, and a more technical righteousness, expressing "eternal righteousness" could only come through Christ.

Righteousness, then, did come through the Law, but was as yet incomplete during that era. Now that Christ has come, righteousness is complete with the endowment of eternal life and eternal reward for righteousness. That is what Paul meant--not that no righteousness had existed under the Law, or never was the intent of the Law. David wrote a long psalm, Psalm 119, to express how much the Law existed to transmit righteousness to God's people.

Paul embraced God's grace and accepted Christ's sacrifice for his sins. He rejected the contrasting point of view that rightness with God comes through obedience to the law. His reasoning could not be more clear. If rightness with God were possible through obedience to the law, then grace could be swept aside, and Jesus' death on the cross would have been pointless.

Again, righteousness did come through the Law, but it was not *complete* under the Law. Paul, in context, was talking about righteousness that *lasts,* which is only possible by Christ's atonement and resurrection. That, to me, is clear.

Now, let's fast-forward to today. Here we are, at this very moment, debating who among us is right with God. Is it the one who is obedient to God's laws, or is it the one who relies on God's grace and the sacrifice of Christ for his sins? Personally, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." How can there be an argument against that? Everyone knows they are sinners who fall short of the glory of God, right?

Yes, since the Law fell short of granting eternal righteousness, we still can only obtain that by Christ's atonement and resurrection, ie through our faith in that. So it is never a matter of going by the human record, which is what the Law was. Rather, we have to go by Christ's record, which is flawless and qualified to obtain eternal reward. And as God, he is able to transfer his own reward to us, who trust in him and partake of his righteousness through the Spirit that he gave us.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have never met a Christian that taught and believed that Christians are to be saved by performing works of the Law.

 

[RandyPNW]

I have never met a Christian that taught and believed that Christians are to be saved by performing works of the Law.

Of course not. Salvation requires that we place our faith and trust in Christ, who lived a perfect life and who as Deity is able to give us his own qualification for Eternal Life. That is Salvation--not just doing good works that depend on our own reputation, which obviously falls short.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you all for your responses. Let's just start with this one verse and see if we can reach an agreement on it.

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. (Ga 2:21)​

It's important to understand Paul. To do this, a person can't take just one sentence out of all his letters, separate it from the rest of the bible, then use it to promote or preserve a preconceived religious philosophy.

As I tried to point out to you in my reply regarding Paul's teaching when a person includes more than just one or two sentences of his, "ALL" men have sinned and therefore are guilty of unrighteousness. And Paul tells you in your own Bible.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that "the unrighteous" shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived":

In the "LAW", as I also pointed out to you from Words of God in your own Bible, there was a process put in place by God, a Temporary process by which the remission of Sin was accomplished (removing the unrighteousness). (Lev. 4 in your own bible if you choose to understand what Paul was referring to when he says "Works of the Law") Paul said it was to be in place until the SEED should Come. And of course, Jesus was the True "Lamb of God".

The mainstream religion of his time did not recognize Jesus as the Prophesied Messiah and were still promoting the sale of goats and animals to sacrifice (Works of the Law) for the remission of sins (Unrighteousness) Paul is explaining to them that the blood of goats never justified a man of his unrighteousness, that these sacrificial "works" were a shadow, symbolic of what God Himself would do for them.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The remission of Sin, (unrighteousness) doesn't come through these sacrificial "works of the Law" and never did, the Law shows what sin is. There is no "LAW" we can perform or do that takes away our unrighteousness.

Rom. 8: 3 For what the law could not do, (Remove unrighteousness) in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And again;

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, (Not the Blood of animals according to the Old Proiesthood) to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

We are still required to "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God, according to Paul's own words which can be found in your own Bible, and to become "servants of God's Righteousness", as was the Body of Christ.

The deceiver would have us believe we are "NOT" created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which "God" hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them. Rather, that men can create their own righteousness, their own judgments and Laws, their own high days and images of God in the likeness of random handsome men, and even though God forbids this iniquity, the servant convinces men "You shall surely not die"!

Paul embraced God's grace and accepted Christ's sacrifice for his sins. He rejected the contrasting point of view that rightness with God comes through obedience to the law. His reasoning could not be more clear. If rightness with God were possible through obedience to the law, then grace could be swept aside, and Jesus' death on the cross would have been pointless.

Jesus was Righteous, for one reason according to Paul. Phip.2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: This is written by Paul in your own Bible.

Jesus knew the deceiver would try and turn men away from God's "Instruction in Righteousness" that God before ordained that Jesus and all the Faithful should walk in. Seeing this deception coming in our time, HE inspired it to be written;

1 John 3: 7 Little children, "let no man deceive you": he that doeth righteousness is righteous, "even as he is righteous".

And again;

1 John 2: 6 He that "saith" he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, "even as he walked".

The problem exists in past sins. If I murder someone, I am guilty. I can spend the rest of my entire life, never murdering a soul ever again. Never hating a soul, never wanting to murder. Am I therefore justified because I walked perfectly in the LAW, "thou shall not murder"?

No, I still owe a debt that must be paid. If I get caught, even 10 years after the murder, having never even contemplating murder during those 10 years, I will still be thrown in Jail. (Rom. 6:16) I am not justified by Keeping a Law I already am guilty of breaking. The ONLY way for the debt of this crime to be cancelled or removed, making me righteous, is if a High Power "Pardons" me.

There is NO LAW that I can "DO" to take away the Sins I have already committed. And if I am pardoned, if I continue to walk in the same sins, that would be Tempting the Higher Power who pardoned me, Yes? What does Jesus say about that behavior?

If only men would turn away from this world's "many" voices which exist in the garden God placed us all in, and Trust HIS actual Words, and dwell on undeniable Biblical Facts like the one I just pointed out. But alas, religious tradition is a power influence.

Now, let's fast-forward to today. Here we are, at this very moment, debating who among us is right with God. Is it the one who is obedient to God's laws, or is it the one who relies on God's grace and the sacrifice of Christ for his sins?

It seems prudent, when discussing such matters, to trust the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, (As the Jesus of the Bible commands) throughly furnished unto all good works." (That God before ordained that His People should Walk in them) as Paul Teaches us.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is why it's so important to consider ALL Scriptures as the Armor of God so that we are not deceived by the "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call HIM Lord, Lord, but "work iniquity".

Personally, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." How can there be an argument against that? Everyone knows they are sinners who fall short of the glory of God, right?

This is why repentance is required for Salvation. So that the man of God will "Change, or as Paul teaches, "Yields himself" a Servant to OBEY God, and become "Servants of God's righteousness" who have "put on the new man, which after God ( Not the religions of this world God placed us in) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The Pharisees/corrupt Jews, used the Sacrificial "works of the Law" as a get out of jail free card. (See Is. 1) They believed they could reject the Judgments and Commandments of God and create their own religion, with their own judgments, their own Righteousness, their own definition of Holy and Clean and righteousness. And they were "justified" once a week, of this willful sin by taking the blood of Animals to the Priest, and their unrighteousness would be removed, making them Righteous "Through the Law".

Many of today's religions, "Who profess to know Christ" who "come in HIS Name", have also rejected God's commandments, Statutes and Judgments, and have created their own religion, with their own Judgments and definitions of Holy, Just, Clean and Righteousness. They have created their own high days, their own righteousness, and rejected God's instruction in Righteousness just as did the Jews. And once a week they bring the Blood of the Lamb of God, to the Priest, to justify themselves.

Jesus, at least the Jesus of the Bible, teaches to "come out of these religions", to "NOIT" be like unto them.

I advocate for Hearing, and then "Doing" the Sayings of the Jesus of the bible. But like in His Time, there is a significant cost to those who call Him Lord, but doesn't "DO" what HE says, and as a result most are not willing to put on the new man which "After God" is created in Righteousness and True Holiness.

I'm hoping there might be at least one person reading this, who understands what the Scriptures I post are saying.

 

[B Griffin]

I wrote a bit on this kind of Pauline statement a little while ago. Paul used technical applications of "faith" and "righteousness" to convey something deeper than simple faith and simple righteousness.

I would have to say that simple faith and simple righteousness did in fact come through the Law. But the Law is no longer in effect, and a more technical righteousness, expressing "eternal righteousness" could only come through Christ.

Righteousness, then, did come through the Law, but was as yet incomplete during that era. Now that Christ has come, righteousness is complete with the endowment of eternal life and eternal reward for righteousness. That is what Paul meant--not that no righteousness had existed under the Law, or never was the intent of the Law. David wrote a long psalm, Psalm 119, to express how much the Law existed to transmit righteousness to God's people.

Again, righteousness did come through the Law, but it was not *complete* under the Law. Paul, in context, was talking about righteousness that *lasts,* which is only possible by Christ's atonement and resurrection. That, to me, is clear.

Yes, since the Law fell short of granting eternal righteousness, we still can only obtain that by Christ's atonement and resurrection, ie through our faith in that. So it is never a matter of going by the human record, which is what the Law was. Rather, we have to go by Christ's record, which is flawless and qualified to obtain eternal reward. And as God, he is able to transfer his own reward to us, who trust in him and partake of his righteousness through the Spirit that he gave us.

I have a bit of a different take on the law. It was never intended to create righteousness through obeying it. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Ro 3:20)." It does its job flawlessly. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Ga 3:22)." It teaches us that we are not right with God because of our sins and convinces us that we need a Savior.

But I do agree with your statements at the end of your post. We are "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) when Jesus comes to live in our hearts thereby making us His children who are alive from the dead because of His Spirit who lives in us. When we walk in the Spirit, we do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh and the righteousness we possess in Christ produces its fruits.

 

[B Griffin]

I have never met a Christian that taught and believed that Christians are to be saved by performing works of the Law.

I have met "Christians" who believe and teach that forgiveness is through obedience to the law. I have also met "Christians" who believe and teach that salvation, once obtained, is maintained through obedience to the law. I have also met "Christians" who believe and teach that only those who are not engaged in "habitual sin" are saved.

These beliefs and teachings are not in and of themselves evidence that they are not true Christians. We cannot see into their hearts and make a determination as to whether Christ is in them. But because these beliefs and teachings are in such opposition to the truth of the gospel, they are enough to give us concern that the ones who believe and teach them may not be true Christians. We see this playing out in Scripture:

• Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:4)
• I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. (Ga 4:11)
• I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. (Ga 4:20)

 

[B Griffin]

It's important to understand Paul. To do this, a person can't take just one sentence out of all his letters, separate it from the rest of the bible, then use it to promote or preserve a preconceived religious philosophy.

I'll see if I can untangle what you are saying here.

As I tried to point out to you in my reply regarding Paul's teaching when a person includes more than just one or two sentences of his, "ALL" men have sinned and therefore are guilty of unrighteousness.

It is hard to determine what you are saying here. It appears you are agreeing with me on the one point that all men are guilty of unrighteousness because they are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

And Paul tells you in your own Bible.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that "the unrighteous" shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived":

You say, "In my own Bible", as if I do not understand the condemnation that sin brings? Again, it appears that you are agreeing with me that our unrighteousness causes us to be under condemnation.

In the "LAW", as I also pointed out to you from Words of God in your own Bible, there was a process put in place by God, a Temporary process by which the remission of Sin was accomplished (removing the unrighteousness). (Lev. 4 in your own bible if you choose to understand what Paul was referring to when he says "Works of the Law") Paul said it was to be in place until the SEED should Come. And of course, Jesus was the True "Lamb of God".

The mainstream religion of his time did not recognize Jesus as the Prophesied Messiah and were still promoting the sale of goats and animals to sacrifice (Works of the Law) for the remission of sins (Unrighteousness) Paul is explaining to them that the blood of goats never justified a man of his unrighteousness, that these sacrificial "works" were a shadow, symbolic of what God Himself would do for them.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The remission of Sin, (unrighteousness) doesn't come through these sacrificial "works of the Law" and never did, the Law shows what sin is. There is no "LAW" we can perform or do that takes away our unrighteousness.

Rom. 8: 3 For what the law could not do, (Remove unrighteousness) in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And again;

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, (Not the Blood of animals according to the Old Proiesthood) to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

While it is an error to say that the righteousness that comes through the law of Gal 2:12 is a reference solely to animal sacrifices that were prescribed by the law, you are correct that "here is no LAW we can perform or do that takes away our unrighteousness". So, it appears again that you are "generally" in agreement with me.

We are still required to "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God, according to Paul's own words which can be found in your own Bible, and to become "servants of God's Righteousness", as was the Body of Christ.

I once heard a pastor say, "You're supposed to have died" to his congregation in respect to Col 3:3 ("For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God"). The sentence above has the same flavor. It diverges ever so slightly from the truth that when Christ comes to live in our hearts, we automatically become "slaves of righteousness" (Ro 6:18). And the call to Godly living is not to create righteousness that does not exist, but it is to live out the righteousness we have in Christ. Maybe that is what you meant, but it's hard to tell from this one sentence.

The deceiver would have us believe we are "NOT" created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which "God" hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them. Rather, that men can create their own righteousness, their own judgments and Laws, their own high days and images of God in the likeness of random handsome men, and even though God forbids this iniquity, the servant convinces men "You shall surely not die"!

I havn't run into this sort of deception. What I typically see is the deception that rightness with God is obtained through obedience to God's laws as laid out in Scripture.

Jesus was Righteous, for one reason according to Paul. Phip.2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: This is written by Paul in your own Bible.

No, He was inherrently righteous because of His diety. And His inherrent righteousness was on display in everything He said and did. This is in a small way emblematic of the false belief that righteousness comes through actions instead of righteousness producing righteous actions. This truth can be seen in a simple illustration: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit." (Mt 7:18)

Jesus knew the deceiver would try and turn men away from God's "Instruction in Righteousness" that God before ordained that Jesus and all the Faithful should walk in. Seeing this deception coming in our time, HE inspired it to be written;

1 John 3: 7 Little children, "let no man deceive you": he that doeth righteousness is righteous, "even as he is righteous".

And again;

1 John 2: 6 He that "saith"he abideth in himought himself also so to walk, "even as he walked".

These verses prove my previous point that righteous acts proceed from righteous hearts. But it appears you are yielding to the temptation to see righteousness as being the result of righteous actions.

The problem exists in past sins. If I murder someone, I am guilty. I can spend the rest of my entire life, never murdering a soul ever again. Never hating a soul, never wanting to murder. Am I therefore justified because I walked perfectly in the LAW, "thou shall not murder"?

No, I still owe a debt that must be paid. If I get caught, even 10 years after the murder, having never even contemplating murder during those 10 years, I will still be thrown in Jail. (Rom. 6:16) I am not justified by Keeping a Law I already am guilty of breaking. The ONLY way for the debt of this crime to be cancelled or removed, making me righteous, is if a High Power "Pardons" me.

There is NO LAW that I can "DO" to take away the Sins I have already committed.

I agree that obedience to the law does not produce forgiveness of sins.

And if I am pardoned, if I continue to walk in the same sins, that would be Tempting the Higher Power who pardoned me, Yes? What does Jesus say about that behavior?

If only men would turn away from this world's "many" voices which exist in the garden God placed us all in, and Trust HIS actual Words, and dwell on undeniable Biblical Facts like the one I just pointed out. But alas, religious tradition is a power influence.

It seems prudent, when discussing such matters, to trust the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, (As the Jesus of the Bible commands) throughly furnished unto all good works." (That God before ordained that His People should Walk in them) as Paul Teaches us.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is why it's so important to consider ALL Scriptures as the Armor of God so that we are not deceived by the "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call HIM Lord, Lord, but "work iniquity".

It is clear that you do not believe in eternal security. We will not end that debate on this forum. But please tell me, from your perspective, whether a person who is saved then sins willfully afterward is lost forever. I mean, if there no longer remains a wacrifice for sins, how can he be saved again? Salvation therefore seems to be a one shot deal. If you willfully sin after your're saved, you're lost forever. Is that what you're saying?

This is why repentance is required for Salvation. So that the man of God will "Change, or as Paul teaches, "Yields himself" a Servant to OBEY God, and become "Servants of God's righteousness" who have "put on the new man, which after God ( Not the religions of this world God placed us in) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This again puts the onus of salvation on man. This POV sets aside the grace of God, sees righteousness as being through obedience to the law, and abandons the sacrifice of Christ for all our sins.

The Pharisees/corrupt Jews, used the Sacrificial "works of the Law" as a get out of jail free card. (See Is. 1) They believed they could reject the Judgments and Commandments of God and create their own religion, with their own judgments, their own Righteousness, their own definition of Holy and Clean and righteousness. And they were "justified" once a week, of this willful sin by taking the blood of Animals to the Priest, and their unrighteousness would be removed, making them Righteous "Through the Law".

Many of today's religions, "Who profess to know Christ" who "come in HIS Name", have also rejected God's commandments, Statutes and Judgments, and have created their own religion, with their own Judgments and definitions of Holy, Just, Clean and Righteousness. They have created their own high days, their own righteousness, and rejected God's instruction in Righteousness just as did the Jews. And once a week they bring the Blood of the Lamb of God, to the Priest, to justify themselves.

Jesus, at least the Jesus of the Bible, teaches to "come out of these religions", to "NOIT" be like unto them.

I advocate for Hearing, and then "Doing" the Sayings of the Jesus of the bible. But like in His Time, there is a significant cost to those who call Him Lord, but doesn't "DO" what HE says, and as a result most are not willing to put on the new man which "After God" is created in Righteousness and True Holiness.

I have already addressed the issues repeated in the above paragraphs.

I'm hoping there might be at least one person reading this, who understands what the Scriptures I post are saying.

Let me just quote something I recently read, "It's important to understand Paul. To do this, a person can't take just one sentence out of all his letters, separate it from the rest of the bible, then use it to promote or preserve a preconceived religious philosophy."

 

[RandyPNW]

I have a bit of a different take on the law. It was never intended to create righteousness through obeying it. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Ro 3:20)." It does its job flawlessly. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Ga 3:22)." It teaches us that we are not right with God because of our sins and convinces us that we need a Savior.

It's okay to disagree. It's possible, sometimes, to see only one side of the coin we as individuals are looking at? So let me reiterate. I said, "Righteousness did come through the Law in the generic sense of a limited righteousness, as opposed to an eternal righteousness." And I cited, as proof, Psalm 119. Here is an example of this....

Psalm 119.1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord. 2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart— 3 they do no wrong but follow his ways.

Now, you can hardly say that David saw the Law is not required. You can hardly say that keeping the Law did not produce "righteousness" for David! And yet, that's what you seem to be saying?

I've been reading the Scriptures for a very long time, and I know God required of Israel to keep the Law in order for them to be viewed as "righteous." Yes, they had to have "faith" coupled with their obedience, but they did have to obey the Law to be viewed as "righteous" before God.

So clearly, the Law did produce a limited righteousness, though it could not get past the condemnation of Adam's sin. Since Adam, humanity had been infected by Sin, and no amount of keeping the Law could enable righteousness to get past the curse of Sin, which was death.

So the limited "righteousness" of the Law was different from the "righteousness" Paul was speaking of. In context, he was speaking of a righteousness that *lasts," and gets past the hurdle of death.

The Law obviously brought with its form of "righteousness" the knowledge of human Sin. Since Adam all had been infected by Sin, and the Law displayed this reality by showing Israel that *everybody in Israel* required covering for their Sin. They *all* required the redemptive remedies offered under the Law, even if these remedies were temporary and could not bring Eternal Life.

What these rituals did accomplish, however, was they kept Israel in covenant relationship with God until redemption could be made permanent and complete in Christ. So the Law did bring "righteousness" in the generic sense.

But in the sense Paul meant "righteousness," that *eternal righteousness,* which overcomes death, could only come apart from the Law. Otherwise, the Law convicted Man as a sinner. It had to come by Christ who alone was blameless and could impute to us his own record by giving us his Spirit as a free gift, conditioned upon our full submission.

In other words, we must repent, and get past the Law of Moses, which had only been a temporary remedy. We need the righteousness that Christ exhibited and gave to us as a free gift, forgiving our sins.

 

[Dan Perez]

All have sinned Rom 3:23 so all all are doomed to the lake of fire apart from the Gospel.

But UNDER The Gospel we not only have forgiveness of sins - we also have the "NEW Birth" and the "New Covenant" where the LAw of God "is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-12. Such that Paul says "our faith ESTABLISHES the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

No wonder Paul says in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
No wonder John says "the saints keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

where "the first commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2

Curious as what you wrote about the NEW COVENANT in Jer 31:31-34 since it says the it is speaking to to Israel and Judah , your thoughts ??

dan p

 

[hedrick]

How about no righteousness. Only God is righteous. Our job is to serve, not to be righteous or holy. Luke 17:9-10

 

[Studyman]

I'll see if I can untangle what you are saying here.

It is hard to determine what you are saying here. It appears you are agreeing with me on the one point that all men are guilty of unrighteousness because they are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

You say, "In my own Bible", as if I do not understand the condemnation that sin brings? Again, it appears that you are agreeing with me that our unrighteousness causes us to be under condemnation.

Yes, Transgression of God's Law, which is how the Bible defines "SIN" makes us "Unrighteous" and brings us under condemnation.

While it is an error to say that the righteousness that comes through the law of Gal 2:12 is a reference solely to animal sacrifices that were prescribed by the law, you are correct that "here is no LAW we can perform or do that takes away our unrighteousness".

Righteousness does come through the LAW. Jesus was Righteous "BECAUSE" He walked in God's Law and never transgressed. He inspired it to be written, 1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

But we have already sinned. We are unrighteous. I pointed this undeniable Biblical fact out, in an analogy. Nothing I can do will take away my unrighteousness. Only Innocent, righteous Blood, as symbolized by young clean animals, like calves, and Lambs and goats, according to God's Law, can wash the unrighteousness away.

So, it appears again that you are "generally" in agreement with me.

You are missing an important Biblical fact about God's Law. Prior to the Coming of the Lamb of God, there was a "LAW" Added to God's "Instruction in Righteousness" which was to provide for the forgiveness of sins, until the Prophesied "Lamb of God" should come. I posted the Chapter in which this "LAW" is spelled out in your own Bible. I'm not sure why you didn't go there and see for yourself.

In the Spiritual Examples God had written specifically for our admonition, the Laws in the Bible in Lev. 4, foreshadow this Biblical Reality. But the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, used the innocent Blood as a get out of Jail free card, they corrupted the purpose of this "ADDED" Law, which was to remove our unrighteousness, and "redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" or as it is written in another place after the Passover Lamb had been slain, "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

The Pharisees had corrupted this "LAW" and used it to justify their own religion in which they had created their own definition of righteousness, they own commandments and judgments and full well rejected God's commandments that they might keep their own manmade religious Traditions. As Is. 1 points out, if you would read it.

Is. 1: 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. This is an accurate description of the Pharisees according to the Jesus of the Bible, YES?

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. ( These were the Sacrificial "Works of the Law the Pharisees were still promoting for the remission of sins, Yes? )

Your see. They rejected God's Laws and Judgments, as Jesus tells you in your own Bible, yet they came to God every week with innocent Blood to Justify themselves according to the Law. They were promoting this same religious philosophy onto the New converts in Romans, Acts and Galatians, and others. Paul is explaining that these "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting, didn't cause God to forgive these men and give them HIS Spirit.

I once heard a pastor say, "You're supposed to have died" to his congregation in respect to Col 3:3 ("For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God"). The sentence above has the same flavor. It diverges ever so slightly from the truth that when Christ comes to live in our hearts, we automatically become "slaves of righteousness" (Ro 6:18). And the call to Godly living is not to create righteousness that does not exist, but it is to live out the righteousness we have in Christ. Maybe that is what you meant, but it's hard to tell from this one sentence.

No, you are misrepresenting Paul's Words. Here is what HE actually says. I will add words of his from other places to make his point.

15 What then? shall we sin (Continue in Transgression), because we are not under the law (Dead in trespasses and Sins), but under grace (Alive to
serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear) God forbid. (That means no! Yes?)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression of God's Law) unto death, or of obedience (To God's Law) unto righteousness?

Paul says we "Yield ourselves", just as he says we "Put on" the New Man, and "Put on" the armor of God. Just as he says "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

It is a great marketing strategy for this world's religions to promote the philosophy that if you simply tell Jesus to save you, then you are automatically saved. It is a seductive religious philosophy, but as you can see, Paul implies no such thing.

I will continue in another post. These discussions are great for men to have, given the warnings about the "many" who come in Christ's Name. I appreciate you frank and direct post. I hope you will answer some of the Questions posed, Yes?

 

[B Griffin]

It's okay to disagree. It's possible, sometimes, to see only one side of the coin we as individuals are looking at? So let me reiterate. I said, "Righteousness did come through the Law in the generic sense of a limited righteousness, as opposed to an eternal righteousness." And I cited, as proof, Psalm 119. Here is an example of this....

Psalm 119.1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord. 2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart— 3 they do no wrong but follow his ways.

The way we live godly lives is much different now with Jesus living in our hearts than it was when mankind only had written commandments to obey. Before Jesus took up residence in the hearts of men, the paradigm for godly living was that the people of God should hide God’s Word in their hearts as a hedge against sin. As David wrote:

​

Your word I have hidden in my heart,​

That I might not sin against You. (Ps. 119:11)​

And the proverb reads:

Keep my commands and live,​

And my law as the apple of your eye.​

Bind them on your fingers;​

Write them on the tablet of your heart. (Prov. 7:2–3)​

The reasoning, of course, was that with God’s Word on their lips and in their minds, they would have ample resources to live uprightly in challenging times. They also expected the opposite to be true. When they did not hide God’s Word in their hearts, they expected to be less successful at resisting sin than if they had done so.

This paradigm was good as far as it went, but it was weak because it did not fix the root cause of their problem. Their hearts were deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). No amount of Scripture memorization was enough to stop their sins (1 Kings 8:46–53). Instead of being loyal to God, they rebelled against Him repeatedly (Isa. 1:2–4).

But with Christ in our hearts, the paradigm for godly living is different. No longer is the law’s presence in our hearts dependent on our efforts to put it there. True, it still helps to read, study, and memorize the Bible. But Jesus’ presence in our hearts does something that reading and studying the Bible can’t do (Rom. 8:3). Jesus’ presence in us perfectly aligns our new hearts with the will of God for man (Rom. 8:4). Jesus’ presence permanently and completely incorporates God’s laws into our new hearts (2 Cor. 3:3).

Having God’s laws written upon our hearts means that everything God wants and expects of man is fulfilled in us (Rom. 8:4). God wants us to worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:23–24). With Jesus in our hearts, that is exactly what we do. God wants us to love Him with all our hearts (Mark 12:30). With Jesus in our hearts, that is exactly what we do. God wants us to love our neighbors as ourselves (Luke 10:27). With Jesus in our hearts, that is exactly what we do. God wants us to love our fellow Christians (John 15:12). With Jesus in our hearts, that is exactly what we do.

These things (and everything else God wants and expects of us) have become part of who we are in Christ. They are ours, not because we found them in the Bible and hid them in our hearts, but because God brought them with Him when He came to live in us. God desired men’s hearts to be right with Him, and He made it so by giving us His Spirit. Everything He wanted to be in us—love for Him, love for the world, and love for our brethren—He has put in us in the person of Jesus Christ. God built these things into our Divine NAture, our spiritual DNA, and these things will never change.

This does not mean, of course, that we are the beneficiaries of sinless perfection. On the contrary, our sinful flesh still exists and is just as sinful after our salvation as before. But what it does mean is that we have new life in Christ Jesus. We have separate new divine natures that are completely in line with God. With Jesus at the core of our being inside our new hearts, our new hearts produce all the godly hopes and desires that God has ever wanted man to have. With Jesus in our hearts, we possess everything we need for life and godliness. Now, to overcome the flesh and its lusts for evil, we must day by day, moment-by-moment, look to Jesus as He shows us how to live out the very things He has put in us. And we don’t need to worry about condemnation if we fail—because all our sins are forgiven.

Now, you can hardly say that David saw the Law is not required. You can hardly say that keeping the Law did not produce "righteousness" for David! And yet, that's what you seem to be saying?

Well, I would say that killing a woman's husband in order to have his wife isn't exactly an act of a righteous person. He knew it too. That's why we have this wonderful passage:

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”​

​

[The New King James Version (Ro 4:5–8). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

I've been reading the Scriptures for a very long time, and I know God required of Israel to keep the Law in order for them to be viewed as "righteous." Yes, they had to have "faith" coupled with their obedience, but they did have to obey the Law to be viewed as "righteous" before God.

So clearly, the Law did produce a limited righteousness, though it could not get past the condemnation of Adam's sin. Since Adam, humanity had been infected by Sin, and no amount of keeping the Law could enable righteousness to get past the curse of Sin, which was death.

So the limited "righteousness" of the Law was different from the "righteousness" Paul was speaking of. In context, he was speaking of a righteousness that *lasts," and gets past the hurdle of death.

I must be looking at the other side of the coin. I agree that obedience to the law produces a different kind of righteousness. I see it in verses like Romans 10:5 (For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”) and Philippians 3:9 (not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith). But I do not see any NT instruction to seek one's righteousness from the law, but I see warnings as in Galatians 3:10 (For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”)

The Law obviously brought with its form of "righteousness" the knowledge of human Sin. Since Adam all had been infected by Sin, and the Law displayed this reality by showing Israel that *everybody in Israel* required covering for their Sin. They *all* required the redemptive remedies offered under the Law, even if these remedies were temporary and could not bring Eternal Life.

What these rituals did accomplish, however, was they kept Israel in covenant relationship with God until redemption could be made permanent and complete in Christ. So the Law did bring "righteousness" in the generic sense.

I mostly agree with this. I would also add that the law continues its ministry of death to the lost today, teaching the lost that they are sinners in need of a Savior.

But in the sense Paul meant "righteousness," that *eternal righteousness,* which overcomes death, could only come apart from the Law. Otherwise, the Law convicted Man as a sinner. It had to come by Christ who alone was blameless and could impute to us his own record by giving us his Spirit as a free gift, conditioned upon our full submission.

Lordship Doctrine? Looks like it. Maybe you can explain.

In other words, we must repent, and get past the Law of Moses, which had only been a temporary remedy. We need the righteousness that Christ exhibited and gave to us as a free gift, forgiving our sins.

I'm not seeing a great deal difference in our poins of view.